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Old December 12th, 2013, 01:28 AM   #781
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Barcelona-Sants station.

Three days left.

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Old December 12th, 2013, 04:41 AM   #782
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Old December 12th, 2013, 12:42 PM   #783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
In France, outside big cities, population is scarce. No other stations can be justified than those cited by 437.001 above. Which means, spaced by 80 km or so. And not served by the majority of the trains (you can look at schedules for lines already in service to get an idea on how many trains will make intermediate stops).

Now, how often in a year does a typical farmer or countryside person take a
trip that will begin by a 50 km car ride to the next train station ? In
comparison, how often in a year could he use a motorway whose next exit is
10 km away ?
I think your motorway comparison is very well chosen - though perhaps for different reasons than you think. A frequently heard argument among French train-lovers, when arguing against their German, Belgian and Italian neighbours, is the following: the motorways pass all the big cities at a certain distance; they run through the city center of no one. Therefore, ipse facto, why should the high-speed train lines run via city centers? The argument tends to become particularly scathing when applied to Germany: "those guys invented the Autobahn concept. They just forgot to apply it to their railway sector!"
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Old December 12th, 2013, 01:58 PM   #784
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This argument just proves that you can't outright apply the tried and true methods of public transport in one country to another, yet around the world they continue to make the same mistake again (and again (and again)).
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Old December 15th, 2013, 02:21 AM   #785
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NEWS

According to some inner Renfe and Sncf sources, from March 31 there are reservations made for the following paths in France (and Switzerland):

-4 paths Perpignan-Paris (Gare de Lyon)
-2 paths Perpignan-Lyon (Part Dieu)
-1 path Perpignan-Geneva (Cornavin)
-2 paths Perpignan-Toulouse (Matabiau)
-2 paths Perpignan-Marseille (St Charles)

It is still not clear that all of these paths will be used. The Geneva paths could be postponed again until the end of the reelectrification Works in the section Bellegarde-Geneva.

The paths to Toulouse and Marseille would be coupled between Perpignan and Barcelona or Madrid. They may include stops at Camp de Tarragona and/or Zaragoza-Delicias (or maybe not, it´s unclear).
The path to Geneva would be identical to a path to Lyon, but adding a stop at Bellegarde and another at Geneva (Cornavin).
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Old December 16th, 2013, 10:05 AM   #786
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
This argument just proves that you can't outright apply the tried and true methods of public transport in one country to another, yet around the world they continue to make the same mistake again (and again (and again)).
I'm not quite sure what you're driving at, M-NL? But following up on your point about foreign applicability of domestic experiences: Of course I agree with you that one should never assume that just because something works in one country it will automatically work in another. However, this argument can be taken too far. The German railway lovers have argued for decades that the French approach to TGV could not work in Germany because of geography - notably the much denser German agglomerations (=Siedlungsstruktur). Only problem is, this argument would apply equally to Japan, but they're very happy having Shinkansen trains cruising through the country and only stopping at a few stations underway.

At the end of the day I think it's about politics rather than railway efficiency. In some countries, if a large provincial town is not serviced by every singe intercity train then it's seen as a degradation. In German vernacular this town counts as "abgehängt". Contrast this with France where the trains between Paris and Marseille don't stop underways in Lyon (a city with more than 2 million inhabitants) . Why should they?
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Old December 16th, 2013, 01:15 PM   #787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
The German railway lovers have argued for decades that the French approach to TGV could not work in Germany because of geography - notably the much denser German agglomerations (=Siedlungsstruktur). Only problem is, this argument would apply equally to Japan, but they're very happy having Shinkansen trains cruising through the country and only stopping at a few stations underway.

At the end of the day I think it's about politics rather than railway efficiency. In some countries, if a large provincial town is not serviced by every singe intercity train then it's seen as a degradation. In German vernacular this town counts as "abgehängt". Contrast this with France where the trains between Paris and Marseille don't stop underways in Lyon (a city with more than 2 million inhabitants) . Why should they?
Japanese are happy to have Shinkansen trains stopping at a few stations underway, but they do have a lot of stations.

Over the 515 km Tokaido Shinkansen, there are 15 intermediate stations. All of them have service.
The service patterns are generally:
2 Kodama trains per hour with all-stop service to Nagoya, 1 Kodama per hour on Nagoya-Osaka
6 express Nozomi trains stopping in Shinagawa, Shin-Yokohama, Nagoya and Kyoto
2 Hikari that make a few stops besides the Nozomi ones.
So - there is a mixture of express and non-express trains. But even the expresses do NOT skip, say, Nagoya. And the high speed railway incorporates many minor stations, and regular milk trains to serve these.
Where should TGV milk trains have stations?
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Old December 16th, 2013, 05:57 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Japanese are happy to have Shinkansen trains stopping at a few stations underway, but they do have a lot of stations.

Over the 515 km Tokaido Shinkansen, there are 15 intermediate stations. All of them have service.
The service patterns are generally:
2 Kodama trains per hour with all-stop service to Nagoya, 1 Kodama per hour on Nagoya-Osaka
6 express Nozomi trains stopping in Shinagawa, Shin-Yokohama, Nagoya and Kyoto
2 Hikari that make a few stops besides the Nozomi ones.
So - there is a mixture of express and non-express trains. But even the expresses do NOT skip, say, Nagoya. And the high speed railway incorporates many minor stations, and regular milk trains to serve these.
Where should TGV milk trains have stations?
Hmmm...? Chornedsnorkack? Or erumpent?

I do know that there are many intermediate stations in Japan, but (as you say) not every Shinkansen stops everywhere. Do you know the pass-through speed of these smaller stations? I ask because a big part of DB's problem is that they are in the old city centres where trains have to drive veery slooowly.

In France, Paris-Marseille has five such stations, and Paris-Strasbourg has three. They are all located in open terrain, away from the inner cities.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 06:26 PM   #789
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Out of the 17 stations of Tokaido Shinkansen, only 5 are not old stations of the parallel slow speed railway:

1) Shin-Yokohama was built in open suburb of Yokohama, on the formerly stationless crossing point of an existing suburban railway, 6,1 km from the slow speed railway main line
2) Shin-Fuji is the only station that is not also a slow speed railway station, built 24 years after railway
3) Mikawa-Anjo was also built 24 years after high speed railway, on formerly stationless crossing of the slow speed railway main line
4) Gifu-Hashima used to be the only station that was not also a slow speed railway station, but 18 years after opening, a 1,3 km slow speed railway branch was built to terminate at high speed railway station
5) Shin-Osaka was built on formerly stationless spot on the slow speed mainline, 3,8 km from Osaka main station and 700 m from Higashi-Yodogawa station - which stayed open.
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Old December 16th, 2013, 06:51 PM   #790
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Yes, thanks for the information, but as we both know Shinkansen is standard-gauge, hence separate from the legacy rail tracks. Thus, for all we know the pass-through speed could be well above 200 kmh. (Plus: the extremely light Japanese HS trains also facilitate acceleration/deceleration.) in France we have something similar in Lille, where the Eurostar to London passes through the old station, but on dedicated tracks and at speeds well above the usual "trains a grande ligne"
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Old December 17th, 2013, 12:50 AM   #791
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I think the fact that HSL in Germany are not built 'Autobahnlike' has a mixture of reasons.

As hans280 said, there are political reasons. In Germany with its federal system (in contrast to France with its centralist system) every federal state and every region claims the most possible stops without really caring for the bigger picture.

But I also think it is due to the settlement structure. As ICE run in one hour intervals, they basically have to stop in every bigger city. Bigger cities (>500,000) are quite distributed over Germany, so stops accumulate on a trip from North to South for example.

However, I also think that there could be more bypasses around smaller cities where not every ICE has to stop. Today the average distance an ICE travels without stops is more like 50-70 km (I'm just guessing).

The problem is more difficult than at first sight. There are some Sprinter ICE which stop not that often but they only travel during peak hours and on certain lines. The regular ICE stop in bigger cities and usually go every hour on main lines (on some lines more frequently due to bundling of lines). Then we have the IC, which are long distance trains as well, but stop quite often.

So, what is basically missing from my point of view, is a concept for the future that states which kind of train should stop where and how often. Then the infrastructure could be adapted to that plan.
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Old December 17th, 2013, 03:10 AM   #792
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Toulouse-Matabiau station.

Arrival of the first AVE Barcelona-Toulouse, with the train S-100.017.
It is the first train ever to travel directly between Barcelona and Toulouse on a service open to passengers (the Talgo Trenhotel Barcelona-Paris, a night train, used to do it for many years, but it didn´t call at Toulouse).
The train then departs for the St Jory depot, Note the number of trainspotters on the platform.

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Old December 17th, 2013, 08:58 AM   #793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I'm not quite sure what you're driving at, M-NL?
You seem to have gotten it very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Do you know the pass-through speed of these smaller stations?
Usually full line speed, regardless if the station is built with the platform along passing tracks (common on for instance the Tokaido Shinkansen) or directly along the main line (common on for instance the Kyushu Shinkansen). At ever more stations, especially those where the platform is directly along the main line, the Japanese fit gates to allow access to the platform edge only when it is required to enter/exit a stopped train.
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Old December 18th, 2013, 12:57 AM   #794
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
It is the first train ever to travel directly between Barcelona and Toulouse on a service open to passengers (the Talgo Trenhotel Barcelona-Paris, a night train, used to do it for many years, but it didn´t call at Toulouse).
And, more importantly, it is one of the first passenger trains* leving the Iberian peninsula without changing gauge! I hope to see the 1668 mm gauge relegated to some museums, in my life

*with the exception of trains from border stations, of course (Figueres Vilaflant being one of them, so the Figueras-Paris trains didn't count)
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Old December 18th, 2013, 01:05 AM   #795
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But I also think it is due to the settlement structure. As ICE run in one hour intervals, they basically have to stop in every bigger city. Bigger cities (>500,000) are quite distributed over Germany, so stops accumulate on a trip from North to South for example.

However, I also think that there could be more bypasses around smaller cities where not every ICE has to stop. Today the average distance an ICE travels without stops is more like 50-70 km (I'm just guessing).

The problem is more difficult than at first sight. There are some Sprinter ICE which stop not that often but they only travel during peak hours and on certain lines. The regular ICE stop in bigger cities and usually go every hour on main lines (on some lines more frequently due to bundling of lines).
For example, Taiwan high speed rail has 2 all stop and 1 express train each hour - and at rush hours this increases to 3 all stop and 2 express trains each hour.
How about Germany adding more ICE Sprinters?
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Old December 18th, 2013, 03:39 AM   #796
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Test announce of the AVE Marseille-Madrid at Perpignan station:

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Old December 18th, 2013, 09:09 AM   #797
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
For example, Taiwan high speed rail has 2 all stop and 1 express train each hour - and at rush hours this increases to 3 all stop and 2 express trains each hour.
How about Germany adding more ICE Sprinters?
Currently DB just doesn't have the trains for it.
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Old December 18th, 2013, 01:09 PM   #798
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According to larep.fr, the Paris-Orléans-Clermont-Lyon (POCL) LGV project is back on the agenda.
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Old December 18th, 2013, 04:37 PM   #799
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According to larep.fr, the Paris-Orléans-Clermont-Lyon (POCL) LGV project is back on the agenda.
Everyday, I understand and like politicians and journalists less and less.

First they postpone it, then they give it green light, only to postpone it again, and give it priority again for the umpteenth time...
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Old December 18th, 2013, 04:47 PM   #800
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Everyday, I understand and like politicians and journalists less and less.

First they postpone it, then they give it green light, only to postpone it again, and give it priority again for the umpteenth time...
Election time again?
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