daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 16th, 2015, 04:15 PM   #1001
33Hz
Registered User
 
33Hz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 436
Likes (Received): 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
And even if it was the case, the signal sent by the ground to the train indicates precisely the speed the train is allowed to run at. So maximum
320 km/h on this line, and much less - 160 km/h - at the place the accident
did happen. To allow a train to drive faster than that, the speed monitoring
system must be disabled.
If this is the case, then how was the record Calais to Marseille run done on the live network?
33Hz no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 16th, 2015, 04:18 PM   #1002
SamuraiBlue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,232
Likes (Received): 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/id...rbssEnergyNews

Train driver denies excessive speed.
The driver is alive?

I thought that was the first person to go.
SamuraiBlue no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2015, 04:19 PM   #1003
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
If this is the case, then how was the record Calais to Marseille run done on the live network?
That run never exceeded the allowed line speed.
__________________

tgva325 liked this post
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2015, 04:19 PM   #1004
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
why hasn't RFF gone for full ERTM on its LGVs?
Because TVM is actually a good system.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2015, 06:14 PM   #1005
Bbbut
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 40
Likes (Received): 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/id...rbssEnergyNews

Train driver denies excessive speed.
Wait. If I take your report and add this one: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/h...n-lgv-est.html
than it was the curve not the driver's fault!!!

The curve was set to maximum of 160 km/h. 110% of that are 176 km/h.
That is exactly what the driver said he slowed to! It was his job to take the curve at 110%, right?


PS: "The commissioning programme for the new line includes 200 overspeed test runs at 10% above the 320 km/h line speed, which is a standard procedure."
Wow, 200 times, talk about thorough testing.
Bbbut no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2015, 06:41 PM   #1006
Rebasepoiss
Registered User
 
Rebasepoiss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 5,821
Likes (Received): 1823

A derailment at only 10% over the allowed speed seems insane, though.
__________________

tgva325 liked this post
Rebasepoiss no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2015, 06:56 PM   #1007
33Hz
Registered User
 
33Hz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 436
Likes (Received): 47

Google has useful pictures looking back up the line at the crash site.








From the aerial photos it looks like the right-left crossover is after this point (at the bottom of this picture by the classic line), so the TGV was probably wrong-line running.

There appears to be catch rails going back to the start of the curve and interesting that there is road access up to the small building just before the curve.




https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@48.68...!7i1536!8i1024

https://picasaweb.google.com/Luftbil...42788003967106
33Hz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2015, 07:06 PM   #1008
33Hz
Registered User
 
33Hz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 436
Likes (Received): 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That run never exceeded the allowed line speed.
No. Top speed was 366.6 km/h and average was 306 km/h, including 330 km/h on the LGV Nord.
__________________

tgva325 liked this post
33Hz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2015, 04:25 PM   #1009
telemaxx
Registered User
 
telemaxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hamburg, Hannover
Posts: 7,796
Likes (Received): 2662

Derailment: Conductor braked too late

Now there is confirmation for what most of us was thinking: The train exceeded the allowable speed limit. It entered the curve with 265 km/h, where the limit was 176 km/h. It finally derailed at 243 km/h. So the conductor did know the curve was coming and braked, however way too late.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=537
__________________

winnipeg, tgva325 liked this post
telemaxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2015, 05:27 PM   #1010
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21254

A pic from that same source



Still bad news, but once this is established, at least we can hope for the line to open not much delayed than originally planned, I suppose (contrary to the case if it had been caused by problems with the substructure or geometry).

It also must be noticed that 176km/h was the maximum test speed, 10% above the regulation operational maximum of 160km/h. So the train was more than 50% faster than the operational parameters for that curve under regular commercial service.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

tgva325 liked this post
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2015, 05:34 PM   #1011
[atomic]
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 255
Likes (Received): 122


from http://www.railjournal.com/

why is there such a hard cut at km 403.809?
It can't be that the train is allowed to travel 1km beyond the 'point of no return' without any automatic braking, especially since they are testing(?) the whole thing.
There should be limits set like stairs until the lowest speed limit (176km/h) is reached.
I really hope that rail companies start to take a good look at how they connect traditional and new high speed rail lines
[atomic] está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2015, 06:20 PM   #1012
telemaxx
Registered User
 
telemaxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hamburg, Hannover
Posts: 7,796
Likes (Received): 2662

The blue bars don't indicate allowable speeds, but the design speed of the line. This is a theoretical parameter with which you can calculate minimum radii etc. At the same time it is of course the theoretical maximum speed you can go on this line. It doesn't make sense to have a smooth or stair-like decrease of this value as this doesn't make the train break earlier.

The operational speed of the high speed line is 320 km/h. So the difference to 360 km/h is a safety margin. In the 330 km/h section, the operational speed is likely to be 300 km/h and in the 176 km/h section it is likely to be 160 km/h.

As this ride was a test ride, they wanted to go above regular operational speed (the mentioned 10%). To this end, safety systems were switched off, which in regular operation survey the speed of the train and ensure that it breaks soon enough (automatic breaking in case the conductor doesn't react soon enough).

So before you make comments like "I really hope that rail companies start to take a good look at how they connect traditional and new high speed rail lines" you should inform yourself about how these things work. It is the purpose of the test to exceed the normal operational limits, of course not the design speed limits.
__________________

londondude, Rebasepoiss liked this post
telemaxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2015, 09:12 PM   #1013
[atomic]
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 255
Likes (Received): 122

Quote:
Originally Posted by telemaxx View Post
So before you make comments like "I really hope that rail companies start to take a good look at how they connect traditional and new high speed rail lines" you should inform yourself about how these things work.

This is the second deadly HSR incident in Europe under similar circumstances. commercial ride or test there needs to be a way to stop people from going into relatively tight curves at very high speeds.

regarding the crash in spain:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The ETCS section ended about 4 kilometers before the curve.
This is what I meant, it's just asking for an accident


Quote:
It is the purpose of the test to exceed the normal operational limits, of course not the design speed limits.
That's exactly what i meant. As far as i know this wasn't a test but they took friends & family on the train, which might have distracted them. And even tests are closely supervised and they know exactly how fast they are supposed to go and where.
__________________

k6uelind liked this post
[atomic] está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 19th, 2015, 09:43 PM   #1014
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Quote:
Originally Posted by [atomic] View Post
regarding the crash in spain:

This is what I meant, it's just asking for an accident
You are right. The Santiago crash could have been avoided and should have been avoided. It is insane that the safety of hundreds of people lies in the hands of just one man up front.

Test runs are exactly that: test runs. Family and friends should not be on board when things are being tested which require safety features to be overridden.
__________________
We are shaping the future

tgva325, suasion, Nexis liked this post
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 12:02 AM   #1015
tgva325
Registered User
 
tgva325's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Montevideo
Posts: 6,095
Likes (Received): 3156

I think that perhaps the issue of the late braking was the conductor distracted with the previous day terrorists actions in Paris.
__________________
Estación Central - ¡Reapertura ya!
lfu1.tripod.com/inicio.html

Grupo Yahoo Trenes del Uruguay
tgva325 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 09:53 AM   #1016
telemaxx
Registered User
 
telemaxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hamburg, Hannover
Posts: 7,796
Likes (Received): 2662

Quote:
Originally Posted by [atomic] View Post
Now you know, what I feel, thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by [atomic] View Post
This is the second deadly HSR incident in Europe under similar circumstances.
I don't know whether it leads anywhere to discuss this with you. How on earth are these two accidents comparable? The one in Spain was a regular service with passengers and there was no safety system installed on this section of the track. The one in France was a test ride, where normally only professionals are on board, and where the safety systems where switched off on purpose to allow the train to run at almost design speed.

So you can't just compare these two accidents. The only similarity is that in both cases the conductors braked too late. The Spanish accident wouldn't have happened if there were safety systems in place. So at this particular curve high-speed rail wasn't safe in Spain.

In France, the safety systems were switched off on purpose to run the tests. And everybody on board knows that. There are three people supposed to be in the driver's cab to control the train. So you can't say that high-speed rail in France isn't safe. It was only this one test run, where apparently a few things went wrong, among others children on board, more than three people in the driver's cab and finally nobody noticing that they missed the point of braking. This is a safety issue as well, but it is not the system's safety. The safety system was switched off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [atomic] View Post
commercial ride or test there needs to be a way to stop people from going into relatively tight curves at very high speeds.
You're right for commercial rides. For test rides see above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [atomic] View Post
That's exactly what i meant. As far as i know this wasn't a test but they took friends & family on the train, which might have distracted them. And even tests are closely supervised and they know exactly how fast they are supposed to go and where.
So apparently you don't know that much about the accident Of course it was a test ride, they went above operational speed on a line, which is officially not opened yet with a train that is specifically equipped for test runs with experts on boards usually knowing what they do.
__________________

Rebasepoiss, tgva325 liked this post
telemaxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 10:06 AM   #1017
k6uelind
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 245
Likes (Received): 160

I still think it is totally unacceptable that this accident was allowed to happen by SNCF. How can one really say "It was a test run" to the relatives of the dead and injured? This could have been avoided! This was not an unprecedented accident! 79 dead people in Spain and SNCF learned nothing? Leaving only people in charge of safety is just not safe enough at such high speeds, be it a test or not. There are plenty of additional safety measures that could have been implemented. Very disturbing.
k6uelind no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 10:47 AM   #1018
[atomic]
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 255
Likes (Received): 122

Quote:
Originally Posted by telemaxx View Post
I don't know whether it leads anywhere to discuss this with you.

Quote:
So you can't just compare these two accidents. The only similarity is that in both cases the conductors braked too late.
In a curve at the end of an HSR line with no safety systems in place but the conductor (if that counts).
Quote:
So you can't say that high-speed rail in France isn't safe. It was only this one test run
This is a safety issue as well, but it is not the system's safety. The safety system was switched off.
I never implied that French HSR/SNCF are unsafe at all.
Quote:
So apparently you don't know that much about the accident Of course it was a test ride, they went above operational speed on a line, which is officially not opened yet with a train that is specifically equipped for test runs with experts on boards usually knowing what they do.
no need to get personal
The Test rides are supposed to go 10% over the speed limit, they went way above that (almost 40%) whey the crash occurred. I just don't buy that this was a test ride when they had visitors on board, probably just a joy-ride gone south.
[atomic] está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 10:55 AM   #1019
Rebasepoiss
Registered User
 
Rebasepoiss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 5,821
Likes (Received): 1823

Quote:
Originally Posted by k6uelind View Post
I still think it is totally unacceptable that this accident was allowed to happen by SNCF. How can one really say "It was a test run" to the relatives of the dead and injured? This could have been avoided! This was not an unprecedented accident! 79 dead people in Spain and SNCF learned nothing? Leaving only people in charge of safety is just not safe enough at such high speeds, be it a test or not. There are plenty of additional safety measures that could have been implemented. Very disturbing.
So how would you run trains 10% over the allowed limit if not by turning off the safety systems?

IMO the unacceptable part is that family and friends were allowed on board. People who are paid to test the trains understand the risk and have to accept it if they want to work in that position. Other people shouldn't have been allowed on board.

I would bring a parallel with testing commercial airplanes. Yes, the planes are essentially the same as those which will go into production but the maneuvers performed are much more dangerous and the pilots know that.
__________________

tgva325, ko7 liked this post
Rebasepoiss no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 11:44 AM   #1020
k6uelind
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 245
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
So how would you run trains 10% over the allowed limit if not by turning off the safety systems?
I already said additional safety measures can be implemented! A simple smartphone alarm going off because of a GPS geofence would have saved the lives of 11 people! There are numerous other ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
IMO the unacceptable part is that family and friends were allowed on board. People who are paid to test the trains understand the risk and have to accept it if they want to work in that position. Other people shouldn't have been allowed on board.
So, are you basically saying "It was a test run. The people on the train knew this and signed a paper. They died, but this can happen during testing. Case closed."?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
I would bring a parallel with testing commercial airplanes. Yes, the planes are essentially the same as those which will go into production but the maneuvers performed are much more dangerous and the pilots know that.
I am confident that no safety systems are turned off while testing commercial airplanes. I would be surprised if I was wrong. Also, you do not want to compare two train accidents but you do compare testing an airplane to testing a train service? The training and discipline of commercial airplane pilots is from an entirely different class. And yet half of the airplane accidents are caused by human error.

Many of you say that the recent Spanish Renfe and French SNCF accidents are very different. Yes they are, if you focus on the differences. But if I look at the accidents from the viewpoint of the responsibility of the operator, then they are IMO very similar:
  • High speed railway section that suddenly terminates with a sharp curve
  • No safety system
  • Operator knows safety system not operational and decides that the risk of driver not being able to brake correctly is acceptable
  • Driver is not able to brake correctly, train derails at high speed and people die
Whether the safety system was absent or just disabled or whether it was a test run or a commercial service does not change much in terms of the responsibility of the operator to preserve human life. They knew the risks but they thought it was acceptable. Maybe it was a right decision to not mitigate the risks. I believe it was a wrong decision.

I test industrial hardware and software systems for a living. Ensuring safety during testing is my top priority. I am sure this is a lesson SNCF will learn from. I am sad they did not learn from the mistakes of others.
k6uelind no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alstom, high speed train, tgv

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium