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Old November 22nd, 2015, 04:24 PM   #1041
SamuraiBlue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgva325 View Post
The transrapid crashed at 162 km/h and ended with 23 deaths (most of them passengers...).
TGV derailed at 243 km/h, 11 deaths (and were not passengers).
And in other high speed derailments only light injuries.
I dare you, try ramming any HSR train into a stationary cart at 162Km/h and see how it turns out. In fact lets see you take a seat in the front car.

You would be a fool if you think you can survive in a crash at that speed.

Collision survival is trivial compared to collision avoidance.

Now let's see how you react strapped in a car heading into a barrier at 162Km/h.
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Old November 22nd, 2015, 10:29 PM   #1042
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Originally Posted by telemaxx View Post
Now there is confirmation for what most of us was thinking: The train exceeded the allowable speed limit. It entered the curve with 265 km/h, where the limit was 176 km/h. It finally derailed at 243 km/h. So the conductor did know the curve was coming and braked, however way too late.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=537
Why is it even allowed for humans to drive the train?
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Old November 22nd, 2015, 11:13 PM   #1043
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
I dare you, try ramming any HSR train into a stationary cart at 162Km/h and see how it turns out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heck_rail_crash

800m after the Intercity 225 had hit the stationary car and derailed it was going at 142km/h, strongly suggesting that the train was travelling at about the line speed of 201km/h. The collision caused zero fatalities.

Sadly, the reason we know the speed of the train 800m later is that is the speed it hit a freight train head on (with a front car on the passenger train that was half the weight of the locomotive that was pushing) with a closing speed of 229km/h which caused 10 fatalities (4 people in the cab, others in the derailing carriages).
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Old November 22nd, 2015, 11:36 PM   #1044
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I'm speculating here, but if the driver's nephew or son was in the cab I am pretty sure that he wanted to show off a bit. "Look Gérard, this is the speedometer - as you see we're going 275 km/h now. And this is the phone that I use to contact the signaller with."
I have the same idea about what happened. Add this to years of experience in "extreme" tests, this is probably a case of overconfidence mixed with distracted driving.

Still, I would take into judgement also the protocol for these tests, because with manual controls it's too risky to ask to apply a full braking at the last possible moment. Tests are extreme by definition, but there must be a buffer zone.
The delay in braking was of 10,9 seconds, if you happen to sneeze at the wrong time you're done...


Now, I have a trivial curiosity. To my knowledge, so far, 243 km/h is the highest speed a train was ever crashed at. There were several derailments at higher speeds, but never an impact.
It jumped above Eschede (200 km/h) and Santiago (179), while Eschede still holds the unpleasant speed record for accidents in commercial service.

At the moment I can't find any other cases to contradict this.

Curiously, this happened on the same line that hosted the 574,8 km/h speed record for conventional trains.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 12:39 AM   #1045
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At what speed was the Chinese accident few years ago?
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 01:44 AM   #1046
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Not really HS, "just" 99 km/h. One of the trains was stopped and the other had just been cleared for the following section due to signalling disruptions.

Lathen happened at 162 km/h, and so far is the only crash for MagLev trains.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 02:47 AM   #1047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Not really HS, "just" 99 km/h. One of the trains was stopped and the other had just been cleared for the following section due to signalling disruptions.
It was a wrong-side failure during a thunderstorm, which fed incorrect information into the dispatcher's computer systems.

I once read an article which stated that the vendor of the signalling system did not fully understand the technology it was selling, because they received black box-like components from their subcontractors who refused to provide access to source codes, out of fears that the Chinese would copy it.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 02:54 AM   #1048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heck_rail_crash

800m after the Intercity 225 had hit the stationary car and derailed it was going at 142km/h, strongly suggesting that the train was travelling at about the line speed of 201km/h. The collision caused zero fatalities.

Sadly, the reason we know the speed of the train 800m later is that is the speed it hit a freight train head on (with a front car on the passenger train that was half the weight of the locomotive that was pushing) with a closing speed of 229km/h which caused 10 fatalities (4 people in the cab, others in the derailing carriages).
Don't you even read what you post?

In the opening part it states.

Quote:
Ten people died, including the drivers of both trains involved, and 82 people suffered serious injuries
When trains hits one another at ht high speed people dies no matter the out come.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 03:14 AM   #1049
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Don't you even read what you post?

When trains hits one another at ht high speed people dies no matter the out come.
Aha.

So what? The maglev was not built for crash.
Conventional trains ARE built to preserve as many lives as possible.

High speed crash:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colwich_rail_crash

1 victim.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 12:36 PM   #1050
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Re TVM-430:

While the protocol may be the same as the 1980s, I highly doubt that the equipment is. In this day and age both the lineside and onboard equipment must surely be modern, software defined units that can support multiple standards, especially on the EuroDuplex train.

With everything else that goes into producing the special conditions required for a 6 month test campaign, it's just lazy to suggest that they could program the special speed curves needed for 10% overspeed testing. I'm absolutely sure that whatever recommendations come out of the inquiry from this crash, this will be one of them.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 12:37 PM   #1051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Don't you even read what you post?
Yes, I do. It's chuffing clear, however, that you don't read what I post, nor do you read what you've posted.

You said
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
I dare you, try ramming any HSR train into a stationary cart at 162Km/h and see how it turns out.
I gave an example of a HSR train hitting a stationary car at roughly 201km/h and EVERYBODY on the train surviving.

10 people died because the (already damaged) train then had a head on collision with another train with a closing speed of 229km/h.


And even if you insist on counting the later collision's figures, I'd rather have Great Heck's 10:82 death:injury ratio than Lathan's 23:11! An eight in nine chance of survival or a two in three chance of dying.


No one is saying HSR is 100% safe. What we are saying is that Maglev is no safer than HSR. I'd much rather be in the cab of an HSR hitting something stationary at 162km/h than a Maglev - and you clearly would to, because when you say
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
In fact lets see you take a seat in the front car.
you don't offer to do the same in a Maglev's front car (which is sensible as you will die, and no one is asking you to become a martyr for maglev anyway - unlike you demanding that people risk death for HSR).

I wouldn't like to be in the front car of either, but if I was in a front car of a vehicle hitting a stationary one at 162km/h, I'd rather be in an HSR than a Maglev train.
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Old November 23rd, 2015, 05:21 PM   #1052
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can the two of you both stop the personal attacks.

You are both right in a way. Yes, because of the energy involved with highspeed trains given their large mass and velocity the main focus is on collision avoidance. That being said there is also work put into making a stock as survivable as possible.

Compare the state of this train after a much lower energy derailment, in 1980 to the condition of the wagons after this crash. The train was only travelling a 100kmh when it entered the siding, I can't find any info on what speed the derailment occured, the train set was estimated at 460 tons (<470 tonnes)

However the fact that compartments are not fitted with airbags nor passangers being secured by 4point harnesses would indicate collision avoidence takes precedent
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Old November 24th, 2015, 03:48 AM   #1053
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Oh brother, Grade separation is collision avoidance, in-cab signaling is collision avoidance, ATC and all other type of automatic speed control system is collision avoidance and above all track monitoring is collision avoidance.
You don't get most of those when you are traveling down a classic line which makes it more susceptible to a collision. Maglev doesn't have those kind of inherent problems since they do not need to use already made infrastructure.
Although the Lathen train collision was tragic it was due to human error and a design flaw within the system not having either a track disturbance monitoring system or a location signaling system on all object placed on track was the problem which I believe they had incorporated into the system already.
Basically HSR running on classical line is potential accident waiting to happen which have occurred many times in the past and will happen in the future as well.
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Old November 24th, 2015, 05:50 AM   #1054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
You don't get most of those when you are traveling down a classic line which makes it more susceptible to a collision. Maglev doesn't have those kind of inherent problems since they do not need to use already made infrastructure.
Although the Lathen train collision was tragic it was due to human error and a design flaw within the system not having either a track disturbance monitoring system or a location signaling system on all object placed on track was the problem which I believe they had incorporated into the system already.
Aha, the unability to detect the maintenance vehicle is not a "failure of the system"?

Quote:
Basically HSR running on classical line is potential accident waiting to happen which have occurred many times in the past and will happen in the future as well.
HSR don´t run at "high speed" on classical line... no more than 200 km/h.

And maglev with all the new infraestructure is NOT VIABLE and a big white elephant. Ask Shanghai. Or JR Central, by the way... with their big white elephant that will start service in 2027 and won´t arrive on the Tokyo Central station...
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Old November 24th, 2015, 06:07 AM   #1055
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Originally Posted by tgva325 View Post
HSR don´t run at "high speed" on classical line... no more than 200 km/h.
Still susceptible to a major accident with many fatalities like the one in France.

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Originally Posted by tgva325 View Post
And maglev with all the new infraestructure is NOT VIABLE and a big white elephant. Ask Shanghai. Or JR Central, by the way... with their big white elephant that will start service in 2027 and won´t arrive on the Tokyo Central station...
Yeah, yeah while you clear up major accidents every decade and uncountable amount of delays due to bottle necks on the classical line where 10 minute delays are considered on time, Japanese Shinkansen will manage a on-time service by the seconds. As for termination of Chuo Shinkansen at Shinagawa, it's not much of a problem since Shinagawa is consider CBD of Tokyo within the Yamanote line. Its also closer to Haneda International airport connected by Keikyu.
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Old November 24th, 2015, 07:25 AM   #1056
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Ideally (and given the necessary funding), a completely segregated and grade-separated line for HSR is preferable to a shared line- it just cuts down on the chances of things going wrong- i.e. grade crossing accidents, accidents with slower suburban and long distance trains, people /livestock wandering unto the track etc. Timekeeping is also improved with segregated lines, as commuter trains and the like are susceptible to delays and incidents, which cause knock-on delays to other services, including the HSR trains using the the same tracks in shared scenario. HSR-only tracks at station limits can be built to allow higher approach and departure speeds, instead of the speed-restricting spaghetti of slip switches and crossovers typical of city stations with mixed traffic. Of course, the expense and city planning standards of a locale may preclude building separate tracks/infrastructure for HSR, and thus contingencies must be made for catastrophic collisions.
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Old November 24th, 2015, 08:32 AM   #1057
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Still susceptible to a major accident with many fatalities like the one in France.
Of a test train... puf...

Quote:
Yeah, yeah while you clear up major accidents every decade and uncountable amount of delays due to bottle necks on the classical line where 10 minute delays are considered on time, Japanese Shinkansen will manage a on-time service by the seconds. As for termination of Chuo Shinkansen at Shinagawa, it's not much of a problem since Shinagawa is consider CBD of Tokyo within the Yamanote line. Its also closer to Haneda International airport connected by Keikyu.
Shinkansen NEVER had an accident...
And which classical lines in Shinkansen? That is a completely new network (with exceptions of Mini-Shinkansen lines).

Still waiting for the viability of the maglev...
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Old November 24th, 2015, 09:57 AM   #1058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgva325 View Post
Of a test train... puf...



Shinkansen NEVER had an accident...
And which classical lines in Shinkansen? That is a completely new network (with exceptions of Mini-Shinkansen lines).

Still waiting for the viability of the maglev...

You can hardly compare Shinkansen to TGV, Shinkansen in on closed-tracks with all the beneficts it has (safetier, accuracy, ....) but it's not the case with TGV that share most of it's tracks with other trains, and there is still accidents caused by animals for example or suicide of peoples, witch is not possible on Shinkansen...
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Old November 24th, 2015, 04:03 PM   #1059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgva325 View Post
Of a test train... puf...
TGV accidents

2.1 14 November 2015: Derailment at high speed into a canal.
2.2 15 July 2014: Collision with a TER train
2.3 11 October 2008: Low-speed Collision
2.4 19 December 2007: Level crossing accident
2.5 30 January 2003: Level crossing accident
2.6 5 January 2001: Derailment
2.7 5 June 2000: High-speed derailment
2.8 28 November 1998: Level crossing accident
2.9 9 May 1998: Level crossing accident
2.10 19 November 1997: Level crossing accident
2.11 11 October 1997: Fire
2.12 25 September 1997: Level crossing accident
2.13 10 August 1995: Level crossing accident
2.14 21 December 1993: High-speed derailment
2.15 14 December 1992: High-speed derailment
2.16 23 September 1988: Level crossing accident



Quote:
Originally Posted by tgva325 View Post
Shinkansen NEVER had an accident...
And which classical lines in Shinkansen? That is a completely new network (with exceptions of Mini-Shinkansen lines).

Still waiting for the viability of the maglev...
The maglev experimental line that had been in operation on and off from 1996 has NO major accidents at this point.
As for the derailment of the Yamagata Shinkansen it was during an Earthquake in which the Shinkansen was traveling near the epicenter at 200Km/h where 8 out of the 10 cars derailed but no major injuries out of the 199 passengers that was on board at the time.
This was fortunate since it was traveling at a near straight line when the Earthquake happened.
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Old November 25th, 2015, 07:12 AM   #1060
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
TGV accidents

2.1 14 November 2015: Derailment at high speed into a canal.
2.2 15 July 2014: Collision with a TER train
2.3 11 October 2008: Low-speed Collision
2.4 19 December 2007: Level crossing accident
2.5 30 January 2003: Level crossing accident
2.6 5 January 2001: Derailment
2.7 5 June 2000: High-speed derailment
2.8 28 November 1998: Level crossing accident
2.9 9 May 1998: Level crossing accident
2.10 19 November 1997: Level crossing accident
2.11 11 October 1997: Fire
2.12 25 September 1997: Level crossing accident
2.13 10 August 1995: Level crossing accident
2.14 21 December 1993: High-speed derailment
2.15 14 December 1992: High-speed derailment
2.16 23 September 1988: Level crossing accident
Yes, so what?
The maglev is a lot more expensive than hsr, as they cannot use conventional tracks. And are safer than maglev too, Transrapid killed 23 people in one crash in the test site, and the mortal incidents with TGV´s in 34 years of operation were only two (the Voiron incident in a level crossing and the test train derailment), and the victims are still less than the only transrapid crash... of course victims of level crossing incidents or suicide are ruled out, as they were not passengers or crew of the trains.

Quote:
The maglev experimental line that had been in operation on and off from 1996 has NO major accidents at this point.
Yes, in Japan.
Not Transrapid, which is a maglev train also.

Quote:
As for the derailment of the Yamagata Shinkansen it was during an Earthquake in which the Shinkansen was traveling near the epicenter at 200Km/h where 8 out of the 10 cars derailed but no major injuries out of the 199 passengers that was on board at the time.
This was fortunate since it was traveling at a near straight line when the Earthquake happened.
Yes, I know.
But Shinkansen run in nearly all new network (with exception of Mini Shinkansen branches), so it is obvious that the operating conditions are different.
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