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Old January 10th, 2016, 05:35 PM   #1081
Minato ku
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You have to pay a fine (the price of the journey and more) but I don't know what happen if you can't pay immediately.
I believe that they take your identity and the fine the fine is higher.

I don't know what happen because I have never took the train without paying.
One time, I missed my train and I did take an other one.
I explained my situation to a controller before taking the train, I just had to pay the price of booking (it was a TGV, booking the seat is mandatory).
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Fare evasion on long distance trains? It would mean little or no checks on board...
I can't count the number of time I took the TGV and I was not checked, even after the terrorist attacks and I usually travel on first class where you may expect to have more control.
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Old January 10th, 2016, 07:04 PM   #1082
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In fact the situation is desastrous, for example according to this article (in french : http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2015...-la-fraude.php ), only 11% of fines were actualy paid because in fact SNCF inspectors (in France we say "contrôleur", but I don't know which is the right english translation for that...) were not able to check the adresses of peoples who were caught on trains and the fine was not paid... (And it was true, confirmed by some people in my family who are working at SNCF)...

Hopefuly they were talking about a law project where the SNCF and some other transportation organism (RATP, Eurolines) could get the exact contact information about the people who are frauding and make them pay the fine... As there is no news about this law, I guess that it is still in talks...
But I hope that they will be able to pass the law because the situation where people can almost freely travel without paying anything is unacceptable, and the people who are paying for every train they take are also paying for these frauds....


Edit : I just checked, and it is included in the new law : http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/ta/ta0651.asp

"I. – Après l’article L. 2241-2 du code des transports il est inséré un article L. 2241-2-1 ainsi rédigé :

« Art. L. 2241-2-1. – Pour fiabiliser les données relatives à l’identité et à l’adresse du contrevenant recueillies lors de la constatation des contraventions mentionnées à l’article 529-3 du code de procédure pénale, les agents des exploitants des systèmes de transport ferroviaire ou guidé chargés du recouvrement des indemnités forfaitaires et des frais de dossier mentionnés à l’article 529-4 du même code peuvent obtenir communication auprès des administrations publiques et des organismes de sécurité sociale, sans que le secret professionnel puisse leur être opposé, des renseignements, strictement limités aux nom, prénoms, date et lieu de naissance des contrevenants, ainsi qu’à l’adresse de leur domicile.

« Les renseignements transmis ne peuvent être utilisés que dans le cadre de la procédure transactionnelle prévue au même article 529-4, en vue d’inviter le contrevenant à s’acquitter du versement de l’indemnité forfaitaire et des frais de dossier dans le délai imparti. Ils ne peuvent être communiqués à des tiers, hormis à l’autorité judiciaire, qui doit être informée au cas où une usurpation d’identité est avérée par ces échanges d’information.

« Les demandes des exploitants et les renseignements communiqués en réponse sont transmis par l’intermédiaire d’une personne morale unique, commune aux exploitants. Les agents de cette personne morale unique susceptibles d’avoir accès à ces renseignements, dont le nombre maximal est fixé par arrêté conjoint du ministre de l’intérieur et des ministres chargés des finances et des transports, sont spécialement désignés et habilités à cet effet par l’exploitant. Ils sont tenus au secret professionnel sous les peines prévues à l’article 226-13 du code pénal."


So now hey have the right to ask for exact informations about people who frauded to french tax autorities or social security for example...
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Last edited by winnipeg; January 10th, 2016 at 07:09 PM.
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Old January 10th, 2016, 07:26 PM   #1083
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Detailed Video report from my recent journey on the TGV High Speed Train
between Barcelona Sants and Paris Gare de Lyon.
We have travelled in First Class.

Barcelona Sants:







Inside TGV Duplex First Class







LGV Perpignan–Figueres, still in Spain:





Perpignan:





Between Perpignan and Narbonne:













Inside an older First Class car:






Beziers:





Port near Sete:





LGV Rhin-Rhône:







LGV Sud-Est:





Paris Gare de Lyon:








The Video:





If the video does not load, here is the direct link:

http://youtu.be/ydpbk-qmn08



Enjoy!
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Old January 10th, 2016, 08:22 PM   #1084
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These seats are comfortable, however, they look worn out even if the trains are not that old. They should add some cover layer to them, to avoid this effect.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 07:57 PM   #1085
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New law...a joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by winnipeg View Post
In fact the situation is desastrous, for example according to this article (in french : only 11% of fines were actualy paid because in fact SNCF inspectors (in France we say "contrôleur", but I don't know which is the right english translation for that...) were not able to check the adresses of peoples who were caught on trains and the fine was not paid... (And it was true, confirmed by some people in my family who are working at SNCF)...

Edit : I just checked, and it is included in the new law :

"I. – Après l’article L. 2241-2 du code des transports il est inséré un article L. 2241-2-1 ainsi rédigé :

« Art. L. 2241-2-1. – Pour fiabiliser les données relatives à l’identité et à l’adresse du contrevenant recueillies lors de la constatation des contraventions mentionnées à l’article 529-3 du code de procédure pénale, les agents des exploitants des systèmes de transport ferroviaire ou guidé chargés du recouvrement des indemnités forfaitaires et des frais de dossier mentionnés à l’article 529-4 du même code peuvent obtenir communication auprès des administrations publiques et des organismes de sécurité sociale, sans que le secret professionnel puisse leur être opposé, des renseignements, strictement limités aux nom, prénoms, date et lieu de naissance des contrevenants, ainsi qu’à l’adresse de leur domicile.

« Les renseignements transmis ne peuvent être utilisés que dans le cadre de la procédure transactionnelle prévue au même article 529-4, en vue d’inviter le contrevenant à s’acquitter du versement de l’indemnité forfaitaire et des frais de dossier dans le délai imparti. Ils ne peuvent être communiqués à des tiers, hormis à l’autorité judiciaire, qui doit être informée au cas où une usurpation d’identité est avérée par ces échanges d’information.

« Les demandes des exploitants et les renseignements communiqués en réponse sont transmis par l’intermédiaire d’une personne morale unique, commune aux exploitants. Les agents de cette personne morale unique susceptibles d’avoir accès à ces renseignements, dont le nombre maximal est fixé par arrêté conjoint du ministre de l’intérieur et des ministres chargés des finances et des transports, sont spécialement désignés et habilités à cet effet par l’exploitant. Ils sont tenus au secret professionnel sous les peines prévues à l’article 226-13 du code pénal."


So now hey have the right to ask for exact informations about people who frauded to french tax autorities or social security for example...
This law is just a joke. The government knows that it will have absolutely no result. Why ? Frauders are, for more than 90% of them, as I have unfortunately witnessed too many times, illegal immigrants who don't bear any official documents - no passport, no identity card, no asylum seeker registration act, absolutely nothing.

The SNCF inspector asks a name, they give any false name and address they have in mind, and the inspector gives a receipt for the fine to be recoverred under this name and address. Of course, with false name and false address, this new law will just produce... no result.

This is typically socialist politics. They just pretend to do something, but their aim is overall nothing to be changed. Anyway it is intended to give to the public opinion a message that they are acting. In french, we say 'gesticulation' ! By 2017, we shall have finished for many decades with socialists and this kind of politics and public management.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 08:32 PM   #1086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepicard View Post
This law is just a joke. The government knows that it will have absolutely no result. Why ? Frauders are, for more than 90% of them, as I have unfortunately witnessed too many times, illegal immigrants who don't bear any official documents - no passport, no identity card, no asylum seeker registration act, absolutely nothing.
Yes, but as a foreigner in France I sense also another issue: the class distinctions are crass and the disfavoured folks are seething. So, the ruling classes let people get away with cheating "a bit".

When I was a student in London the major tube stations had a couple of big beefy guards employed to prevent anyone from jumping the barriers. It must have saved a tonne of money. But in Paris we don't do it. Why?

When I visit Switzerland they have police patrolling the stations to prevent begging and vagancy. It makes the stations so much safer. But in Paris we don't do it. Why?

When I ask the question I'm often told that, "on ne peut pas criminaliser la pauvreté". (We cannot criminalise poverty.) I assume that the half-hearted efforts to stop immigrants, paupers and the homeless from cheating in the trains are inspired by similar thinking.
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Old January 12th, 2016, 10:53 PM   #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepicard View Post
This law is just a joke. The government knows that it will have absolutely no result. Why ? Frauders are, for more than 90% of them, as I have unfortunately witnessed too many times, illegal immigrants who don't bear any official documents - no passport, no identity card, no asylum seeker registration act, absolutely nothing.

The SNCF inspector asks a name, they give any false name and address they have in mind, and the inspector gives a receipt for the fine to be recoverred under this name and address. Of course, with false name and false address, this new law will just produce... no result.

This is typically socialist politics. They just pretend to do something, but their aim is overall nothing to be changed. Anyway it is intended to give to the public opinion a message that they are acting. In french, we say 'gesticulation' ! By 2017, we shall have finished for many decades with socialists and this kind of politics and public management.
Trust me, most of the frauders in France are french (born in France especialy), I guess that illegal migrants are a very small small fraction of it...

Yes, you're probably right, it will probably not be enought...

What a funny joke!!!

What does that have to do with the political position of the government? You should just look at the law, if it has been lacking from the law since then, it's probably also because previous governments (especialy from right, do you remember who was president and prime minister during 2007-2012 for example?), they were not worried about it...

And yes, you're right, but you should open a bit more your eyes and see that this is not limited to socialist, you can say that about our the french politicians!!

2017 I'm feared about who will be elected, you shouldn't expect anything better comming from right or extrems, all of them are worthless pure politicians.
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Old January 13th, 2016, 03:54 PM   #1088
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Quote:
Trust me, most of the frauders in France are french (born in France especialy), I guess that illegal migrants are a very small small fraction of it...
If a child is born in France, it does NOT automatically acquire French citizen. The French nationality law is a bit different from the law in the US.
Therefore, someone born in France could be an illegal migrant.
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Old January 13th, 2016, 05:19 PM   #1089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doc7austin View Post
If a child is born in France, it does NOT automatically acquire French citizen. The French nationality law is a bit different from the law in the US.
Winnepeg was (quite clearly - even if you aren't competent in English) saying that not only are they french, but they were born in France as well.

Winnipeg's point is that, rather than being immigrants who became french at a later date (or aren't french even when resident - legal or otherwise), it's those who are have been french their whole life that make up most of the 'frauders'.
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Old January 13th, 2016, 06:25 PM   #1090
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And, anyway, I don't understand all this focus on immigrants. If a law is broken the damage is the same, no matter who is breaking it. I can erase all immigrants, but the loophole is still there...

From what I understand, the problem is people who has nothing to lose, so is able to play chicken with the risk of legal troubles (giving false data for a fine).
But is this a sensible problem on long distance trains?
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Old January 13th, 2016, 08:59 PM   #1091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doc7austin View Post
If a child is born in France, it does NOT automatically acquire French citizen. The French nationality law is a bit different from the law in the US.
Therefore, someone born in France could be an illegal migrant.
Someone born in France can't be an illegal migrant.
He can't be an immigrant because by French law an immigrant is somebody who was born outside France and did not have the French nationality at birth.

Someone born in France can be a foreign citizen if both of his parents are foreigners but he will be granted the French nationality automatically at 18 if he lived at least 5 years in France since he was 11.
He can get French citizenship earlier if he requests.
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Old January 14th, 2016, 07:19 PM   #1092
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Quote:
Someone born in France can't be an illegal migrant.
Of course:
- born in France to two non-French parents
- while still a baby the parents moved back to their home country (deportation or at free will)
- Kid comes back to France via an illegal route; he wont enjoy this quoted 11/18 rule if he doesnt have a legal residence permit
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Old January 15th, 2016, 12:16 AM   #1093
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Is there any info regarding the status of the LGV Rhin-Rhône Sud? Are there any construction works on going? When is it going to put in service?
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Old January 15th, 2016, 12:27 AM   #1094
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It is on standby.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 12:35 AM   #1095
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Thanks. I guess that means no works so far. Do we know when ever completed what will be the travel time between Basel and Barcelona on TGV?
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Old January 15th, 2016, 01:59 AM   #1096
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Yes, nothing done yet, not even a complete feasibility study, for now it is in "hold", and it is maybe awaiting a strong political commitment. For now, the focus is on the phase 2 of the LGV Rhin-Rhône east.

In my opinion, for the other portions (West and South), it will probably takes years, maybe decades to build them, for the simple reason that we (France) don't have as much money to spend as before, there is for now a countless number of big infrastructures projects (I'm not only talking about railway) that have been put in hold during the last years, and some of them have even been far postponed (for example 2030-2050...).

Basel-Barcelona will probably be something like 7h30-8h without counting the probable connecting trains.... so on such big distances, flights have still a great future, and with Basel you are not to complain You have 2/3 returns flights per day with Easyjet and I just checked, it's only 50€ the flight with return, in march.... So, unfortunatly (or not, I don't know), TGV as we know it now and on such big distances, it will never be really interresting compared to lowcost flights...
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Old January 15th, 2016, 11:47 AM   #1097
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If I remember well, on the LGV south-west (Bordeaux) line, SNCF plans to
have something between 16 and 20 trains per hour, per direction. Even with
that, the companies that financed the line (it's a PPP) complain that they won't
recover their costs. In those conditions, many of the projected LGVs in France,
including the west and south branches of LGV Rhin-Rhône, are not
economically profitable, and are probably doomed. At the exception of some
short stretches, we might very well be at the end of the TGV network
development in France... Time to think back to the classical network, and how
to use more efficiently and at higher speeds.
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Old January 15th, 2016, 12:37 PM   #1098
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Quote:
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Yes, nothing done yet, not even a complete feasibility study, for now it is in "hold", and it is maybe awaiting a strong political commitment. For now, the focus is on the phase 2 of the LGV Rhin-Rhône east.
Yeah, I agree that's not very ambitious. We're basically speaking of connecting the existing stretch of HS-track with Dijon in the west and Mulhouse in the east. Having said that, the impressive ongoing construction activity (three or four projects at the same time) was formally motivated as a temporary measure to keep the economy going during the financial crisis. If the government does not want to ridicule itself there must come a quiet period afterward.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 10:40 AM   #1099
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Quote:
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Yes, nothing done yet, not even a complete feasibility study, for now it is in "hold", and it is maybe awaiting a strong political commitment. For now, the focus is on the phase 2 of the LGV Rhin-Rhône east.

In my opinion, for the other portions (West and South), it will probably takes years, maybe decades to build them, for the simple reason that we (France) don't have as much money to spend as before, there is for now a countless number of big infrastructures projects (I'm not only talking about railway) that have been put in hold during the last years, and some of them have even been far postponed (for example 2030-2050...).

Basel-Barcelona will probably be something like 7h30-8h without counting the probable connecting trains.... so on such big distances, flights have still a great future, and with Basel you are not to complain You have 2/3 returns flights per day with Easyjet and I just checked, it's only 50€ the flight with return, in march.... So, unfortunatly (or not, I don't know), TGV as we know it now and on such big distances, it will never be really interresting compared to lowcost flights...

However Paris-Barcelona is currently not that long, a bit more than 6 hours and when the section Nimes-Perpignan will be finished the total time will drop below 6 hours. This is fairly competitive to the airplane in many ways and I was hopping that something similar will happen to Basel-Barcelona route as well.

Maybe for someone who travels alone directly from Basel to Barcelona airplane is still a better option, but there are many like me who can use the same route but without having as starting point Basel or as a final destination Barcelona.

I very often travel with family from Friedrichshafen in Germany to Zaragoza in Spain. Even with using the airplane, normally flying Zurich-Barcelona or Munich-Barcelona/Madrid or Stuttgart-Barcelona, still the total journey lasts more than 10 hours involving trains, metro, buses, car driving, ferries on Bodensee, waiting times in the airports etc. and traveling with kinds and luggage with all these changes is exhausting. A train route Friedrichshafen-Zaragoza with just two changes, one in Basel and one in Barcelona involving two high speed trains Basel-Barcelona and Barcelona-Zaragoza in my case will be preferable over the plane, even with total journey time 10-11 hours and maybe also cheaper since train companies make good deals for family tickets, while with airplane you need to pay the full ticket for each member family plus you need to pay for the rest of the transportation means. Not to mention that kids feel much more free in the train compared to the narrow seats of the airplane.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 10:59 AM   #1100
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Just a little corection:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
If I remember well, on the LGV south-west (Bordeaux) line, SNCF plans to have something between 16 and 20 trains per day, per direction.
It's per day, not per hour.
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