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Old January 16th, 2016, 11:20 AM   #1101
chornedsnorkack
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A train route Friedrichshafen-Zaragoza with just two changes, one in Basel and one in Barcelona involving two high speed trains Basel-Barcelona and Barcelona-Zaragoza in my case will be preferable over the plane, even with total journey time 10-11 hours
How about a single HSR train Basel-Zaragoza? On a train going to Madrid or Malaga, getting off at Zaragoza?
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Old January 16th, 2016, 12:29 PM   #1102
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This is typically socialist politics. They just pretend to do something, but their aim is overall nothing to be changed.

"Pretending to do something" is something all politicians do. Another example of pretending to do something are the security checks for Eurostar that are now also inflicted on Thalys passengers...
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Old January 16th, 2016, 05:32 PM   #1103
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However Paris-Barcelona is currently not that long, a bit more than 6 hours and when the section Nimes-Perpignan will be finished the total time will drop below 6 hours. This is fairly competitive to the airplane in many ways and I was hopping that something similar will happen to Basel-Barcelona route as well.

Maybe for someone who travels alone directly from Basel to Barcelona airplane is still a better option, but there are many like me who can use the same route but without having as starting point Basel or as a final destination Barcelona.

I very often travel with family from Friedrichshafen in Germany to Zaragoza in Spain. Even with using the airplane, normally flying Zurich-Barcelona or Munich-Barcelona/Madrid or Stuttgart-Barcelona, still the total journey lasts more than 10 hours involving trains, metro, buses, car driving, ferries on Bodensee, waiting times in the airports etc. and traveling with kinds and luggage with all these changes is exhausting. A train route Friedrichshafen-Zaragoza with just two changes, one in Basel and one in Barcelona involving two high speed trains Basel-Barcelona and Barcelona-Zaragoza in my case will be preferable over the plane, even with total journey time 10-11 hours and maybe also cheaper since train companies make good deals for family tickets, while with airplane you need to pay the full ticket for each member family plus you need to pay for the rest of the transportation means. Not to mention that kids feel much more free in the train compared to the narrow seats of the airplane.
Yes, if you travel alone, the best solution is still flight, especialy with lowcost flights... (for example it's 50€ from Memmingen to Zaragossa with a 2 hours stayover in London... but of course the luggage is not included).

If you travel in family, then you have to be realistic, the cheapest way to go to Zaragosa in your case is the car, in family, it won't cost you as much as train, you can bring all tour luggage, and it's probably faster than train and his 2 changes...

Don't expect big discounts for family or things like that, a TGV ticket in France cost a lot...
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Old January 16th, 2016, 05:53 PM   #1104
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Yes, if you travel alone, the best solution is still flight, especialy with lowcost flights... (for example it's 50€ from Memmingen to Zaragossa with a 2 hours stayover in London... but of course the luggage is not included).

If you travel in family, then you have to be realistic, the cheapest way to go to Zaragosa in your case is the car, in family, it won't cost you as much as train, you can bring all tour luggage, and it's probably faster than train and his 2 changes...

Don't expect big discounts for family or things like that, a TGV ticket in France cost a lot...
In my case maybe the cheapest but not the best. Having kids in ages bellow 3 years old I will need to make stops at least every 2 hours which means long trips are practically impossible. Moreover I have a small car and I cannot fit many luggage in this. That's the reason I still use the plane even with all these changes and I think I will prefer it over the car for at least 5 more years.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 05:56 PM   #1105
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That is true, for a family of 4 or more nothing is cheaper than driving. Of course there are limits how far one could drive. A Canadian colleague of mine goes to Canada with a wife an two kids every summer and every trip like that costs about 4,000 euros despite the fact that they don't need a hotel on the other side.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 05:57 PM   #1106
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How about a single HSR train Basel-Zaragoza? On a train going to Madrid or Malaga, getting off at Zaragoza?
That would be even better if they ever introduce such a service.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 06:43 PM   #1107
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In my case maybe the cheapest but not the best. Having kids in ages bellow 3 years old I will need to make stops at least every 2 hours which means long trips are practically impossible. Moreover I have a small car and I cannot fit many luggage in this. That's the reason I still use the plane even with all these changes and I think I will prefer it over the car for at least 5 more years.
But being during 10 hours or more in a train with such young children isn't also a good idea in my opinion (first of all for the confort of other people in the trains...). When you have such young kids, maybe you should look at a closer place or a place reachable by a direct non-stop flight, it would certainly be the best for the confort of everyone...
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Old January 16th, 2016, 10:16 PM   #1108
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But being during 10 hours or more in a train with such young children isn't also a good idea in my opinion (first of all for the confort of other people in the trains...). When you have such young kids, maybe you should look at a closer place or a place reachable by a direct non-stop flight, it would certainly be the best for the confort of everyone...
Small kids in the plane bother much more than in the train. And you do not always choose where to travel. My wife's family is in Spain.
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Old January 16th, 2016, 11:40 PM   #1109
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I regularly travel long distance with my kids on the train. Kids love trains and its by far the easiest way to travel with them.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 12:45 AM   #1110
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Small kids in the plane bother much more than in the train. And you do not always choose where to travel. My wife's family is in Spain.
Okay, I understand better, but you should think about the fact that you have a kind of "unusual" situation...

So far I have no chil yet, but as I traveled by train, I already heard a lot of them crying on the train, and I was thinking that 1 hours and something is not a big deal while 12 hours or more for a child should be exhausting and a poor experience, but maybe I'm wrong...
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Old January 17th, 2016, 11:00 AM   #1111
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I do not think my situation is that unusual or special and not only because of the small kids in the family. There are also other cases where long distance high speed trains are preferable to the flights even when traveling alone. I will give you an example.

In the recent past I needed to travel alone a few times from Friedrichshafen in south Germany to Calais in north France on business trip. First time I chose the most convenient available flight Zurich-Paris via the following route:

Ferry boat across Bodensee (lake Constance) from Friedrichshafen to Romanshorn on the swiss coast of the lake. Then normal train Romanshorn-Zurich airport. Then flight Zurich-Paris CDG. Then shuttle bus from the airport to the centre of Paris at Opera station (took more than 1 hour in Paris traffic jam). Then metro from Opera to the train station Paris Gare du Nord. Then TGV train Paris-Calais.

Second time I made the same journey up to Paris CDG but this time I chose to use the train station located at the airport. I moved to a different terminal at the airport to reach this station and took TGV train Paris-Lille. Then I waited around an hour at Lille train station to take my connection TGV train Lille-Calais. I think this is the fastest possible way to travel from Friedrichshafen to Calais using the airplane.

Third time I decided to go all the way by train. I took the normal slow train Friedrichshafen-Stuttgart where I took the TGV Stuttgart-Paris Gare de lŽEst. Then I walked from Gare de lŽEst to Gare du Nord and took the TGV Paris-Calais.

At the end I ended up that the third option was the best for traveling to my destination. The journey duration was around one hour longer than the second option and around the same or less than the first option but it was by far the most convenient and less stressy of all three options.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 11:59 AM   #1112
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New green light for the Bordeaux-Toulouse high speed line


ARCHIVES GUILLAUME BONNAUD

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Adding a further 327 route-km, the line would run south from Bordeaux for 55 km, before dividing to form an inverted Y-shape. The eastern branch towards Toulouse would have stations serving Agen and Montauban, while the western route to Dax would include a station north of Mont-de-Marsan. A station for regional high speed services provisionally called ‘Halte Sud Gironde’ is also proposed south of the junction.

The Bordeaux – Toulouse section would open in 2024, followed by Bordeaux – Dax in 2027. The new line would permit a Bordeaux - Toulouse journey time of 1 h 05 min, Paris – Toulouse trips of 3 h 10 min, with Bordeaux – Marseille trips cut to about 4 h.

A second phase of the project is also proposed. This envisages the construction by 2032 of a 91 km mixed-traffic line from Dax to the Spanish frontier, which would be designed for 220 km/h operation.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 12:32 PM   #1113
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I do not think my situation is that unusual or special and not only because of the small kids in the family. There are also other cases where long distance high speed trains are preferable to the flights even when traveling alone. I will give you an example.

In the recent past I needed to travel alone a few times from Friedrichshafen in south Germany to Calais in north France on business trip. First time I chose the most convenient available flight Zurich-Paris via the following route:

Ferry boat across Bodensee (lake Constance) from Friedrichshafen to Romanshorn on the swiss coast of the lake. Then normal train Romanshorn-Zurich airport. Then flight Zurich-Paris CDG. Then shuttle bus from the airport to the centre of Paris at Opera station (took more than 1 hour in Paris traffic jam). Then metro from Opera to the train station Paris Gare du Nord. Then TGV train Paris-Calais.

Second time I made the same journey up to Paris CDG but this time I chose to use the train station located at the airport. I moved to a different terminal at the airport to reach this station and took TGV train Paris-Lille. Then I waited around an hour at Lille train station to take my connection TGV train Lille-Calais. I think this is the fastest possible way to travel from Friedrichshafen to Calais using the airplane.

Third time I decided to go all the way by train. I took the normal slow train Friedrichshafen-Stuttgart where I took the TGV Stuttgart-Paris Gare de lŽEst. Then I walked from Gare de lŽEst to Gare du Nord and took the TGV Paris-Calais.

At the end I ended up that the third option was the best for traveling to my destination. The journey duration was around one hour longer than the second option and around the same or less than the first option but it was by far the most convenient and less stressy of all three options.
And with better timetabling in France could even have been better.

For example: I need to travel Bern - Den Haag quite regularly. Train + Plane + Train is in my case not that complicated, takes about 6 hours. By train the fastest is via Paris, in 8 hours. But this involves changing stations in Paris. If SNCF would run more "intersector" TGVs, and use CDG as a hub for those it ought to be possible to cut another hour of that.
In the end I usually go by train via Germany. This is longer, but does not involve Paris, and I can get a lot of work done on the train, which compensates.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 12:43 PM   #1114
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Train starts to be attractive even for fairly long journeys if neither the starting point nor the destination is near a major airport. That is the case for both of you. I could get from my apartment to Basel airport in just 30 min and there are many flights to major European destinations so flying is often more convenient. Train station is within walking distance though so if I wanted to go to Paris it would be train for sure.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 01:08 PM   #1115
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Train starts to be attractive even for fairly long journeys if neither the starting point nor the destination is near a major airport. That is the case for both of you. I could get from my apartment to Basel airport in just 30 min and there are many flights to major European destinations so flying is often more convenient. Train station is within walking distance though so if I wanted to go to Paris it would be train for sure.
That's true. And in the future as the high speed rail network expands it will be even more attractive. My city has a local airport with some international flights but I do not think it is possible to see any time a flight like Friedrichshafen-Lille. Not even a flight Friedrichshafen-Paris looks very probable, no more than seeing the German ICE reaching my city which I think it will happen one day in the future. Then the train for the route I described above not only will be more convenient but also faster than the flight.

I believe one day not in the very long future we will have a high speed train station in a distance of no more than 100km from every place in countries like Germany, France, Spain, and Italy etc.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 01:43 PM   #1116
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And with better timetabling in France could even have been better.

For example: I need to travel Bern - Den Haag quite regularly. Train + Plane + Train is in my case not that complicated, takes about 6 hours. By train the fastest is via Paris, in 8 hours. But this involves changing stations in Paris. If SNCF would run more "intersector" TGVs, and use CDG as a hub for those it ought to be possible to cut another hour of that.
In the end I usually go by train via Germany. This is longer, but does not involve Paris, and I can get a lot of work done on the train, which compensates.
CDG is a quite small train station compared to others (especially Paris gare de Lyon who is huge and actualy handle more than 20 times more traffic than CDG TGV)...

Personaly, I think that in Paris it's quite okay, I used it a lot from Paris gare de Lyon to Paris gare du Nord/Est (and the oposite), and it's works well I found, it only takes around 15 minutes with one change in Chatelet by RER and for me it works...

Using CDG TGV like a hub is complicated because most of the people who travel to Paris wants to go directly inside Paris, which is the case with actual train stations...

Last edited by winnipeg; January 17th, 2016 at 01:58 PM.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 03:29 PM   #1117
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CDG is a quite small train station compared to others (especially Paris gare de Lyon who is huge and actualy handle more than 20 times more traffic than CDG TGV)...
You'd be surprised what you can do with just four platforms.

I'm only thinking about having timed meets. For example a Strassbourg - Lille service could be time to have a cross platform interchange with a Lyon - Brussels services every two hours...

Similar things could be done at the Disneyland station.

A way to do this is for example have a hourly service from Lille that goes south and bypasses Paris, and contineous either Easr, South East, or Southwest. Do the same from Strasbroug, Marseille and Bordeaux.
That way you have several direct trains between those towns each day, but if you time them better you could actually offer an hourly service for people who don't mind one transfer...
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Old January 17th, 2016, 07:39 PM   #1118
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I will never understand why the LGV Nord and the LGV Est have not been aligned through the airport at Roissy when these lines wouldn't be much longer but a lot more useful.
And instead of the Interconnection Est one should have extended the LGV Atlantique as well as the LGV Sud-Est toward Paris-Nord via two tunnels. The four LGVs would have been connected by one trunk route through Paris which would have allowed high-speed services to Paris to be extended to or routed via CdG. Serving the capital as well as France's gateway to the world would have killed two birds with one stone. No infrequent airport services via the Interconnection would have been needed. And as a side-product the intended airport express could have shared the high-speed tracks.
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Old January 17th, 2016, 07:59 PM   #1119
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It's probably a bit too "utopist", crossing both LGV nord and LGV est would have created a way too big traffic to handle I guess... And the same about the LGV tunnels you are drawing inside Paris, I guess taht making such tunnels would have been very complicated (TGVs doesnt accept a very inclined slope like metro do, and the parisian under-ground is already full of tunnels and stuffs like that...)
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Old January 17th, 2016, 07:59 PM   #1120
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It was better to send the highspeed trains from the east to the Gare de l'Est (with plenty of space left) than to the overcrowded Gare du Nord.

About the TGV tunnel under Paris, Central Paris underground is already very crowded and a such tunnel would be very expensive
There are plenty of more important projects that are needed (new tunnel for the RER D, RER E extension...).
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