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Old March 31st, 2007, 06:03 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Does the Shanghai maglev really achieve 320 km/h in normal service over less than 100 km of maglev track?
Of cause, its top speed is 430 along the 30 km track. It has a design top speed of 550 (Commercial 500) but the track in shanghai is to short.
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Old March 31st, 2007, 07:57 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by TRZ View Post
Responding to the Fastech question, their top speed in commercial service is a little over 400km/h along certain portions of the JR East Shinkansen Lines (does not include Tokaido, which is run by JR Central), with commercial speed sitting around 370 I believe.

People should not write off the MLX-01 in Japan (run by JR Central) as an experimental model. While it is technically a test track now, the current test track will become incorporated into the next-generation Shinkansen as a relief line for the current Tokaido (which is funny, since the Tokaido was a relief line for its conventional narrow-gauge predecessor). That test track will not be a test track forever, it will be extended to Shinjuku in the east and Nagoya and Osaka in the west. Track alignment will be very different from the existing Tokaido Shinkansen, as the next-gen will arc close to the Sea of Japan on its way to Nagoya.

That said, if the TGV can break 600km/h, this still cannot be done on normal operations. The maglev hits between 550-600 on a regular basis, not mere "special test runs". A record is useless if it has no practical applications in the real world. Maglev's 550+ speeds can be used in commercial operation, TGV's can't.
Japanese Shinkansens NEVER exceed 300kph, I don't know where you got that 400kph thing...
Anyway, the TGV record is obviously not intended to make people think it will run this speed on commercial use. It's just meant to prove how far high speed train technology has gone. It also prove that in a near future, top commercial speed will be pushed over 320 (Paris - Strasbourg).
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Old April 1st, 2007, 08:28 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post

This is the best description I could find of the Fastech 360S which has not yet been built.
The Fastech has been built, and testing is mostly complete, thus they have been approved to enter service for next year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karakun
Japanese Shinkansens NEVER exceed 300kph, I don't know where you got that 400kph thing...
It is the Fastech that goes just past 400. Fastech has not yet entered revenue service. Japanese Shinkansen on JR East lines will exceed 300km/h and on occasion even hit 400km/h next year.
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Old April 1st, 2007, 11:49 AM   #104
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The maglev hits between 550-600 on a regular basis
Then why is the world record for maglev within this range?
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Old April 1st, 2007, 12:17 PM   #105
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Maybe because there isn't a maglev track that's long enough to go faster?
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Old April 1st, 2007, 02:21 PM   #106
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I've read that the world record on the eastern line costed 30.000.000 euros. I have difficulty beleaving this. Is there somebody who knows more about this? 30 milion is extremely much for one train-ride! Maybe the journalist was confused somewhere?
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Old April 1st, 2007, 02:56 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRZ View Post
The Fastech has been built, and testing is mostly complete, thus they have been approved to enter service for next year.

It is the Fastech that goes just past 400. Fastech has not yet entered revenue service. Japanese Shinkansen on JR East lines will exceed 300km/h and on occasion even hit 400km/h next year.
And cars will be flying by 2067.
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Old April 1st, 2007, 03:01 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Karakuri View Post
And cars will be flying by 2067.
Hey, the source is from JR East, if you have a problem with it, take it up with them. If JR East says that it will be running its ***est model train at a commercial speed of 360 or so and with a max speed over 400 in some segments of the line by next year, then it is hard to argue since nobody else would know better - especially not you.
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Old April 1st, 2007, 03:09 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Facial View Post
Then why is the world record for maglev within this range?
The ongoing testing is for reasons other than speed. The limiting factor preventing it from breaking the 600 mark is air resistance. Otherwise, 550 or so is its regular speed. And it is reached without destroying the infrastructure, unlike the TGV, which totally destroys tracks at 500km/h (BEHOLD THE POWER OF FRICTION, BWAHAHAHA). Other problems they encounter are noise control. Once you start going faster than three- or four-hundred kilometers, the air friction gets noisy, especially at tunnel entrances. There is also the issue of passing trains in the opposite direction - a passing speed of over 1100km/h (~550 + ~550 = ~1100). These are all problems that need to be addressed. While maintaining the speeds is not an issue, and passenger safety is pretty much all good as the live passenger tests have been going on for a year and a half now, the remaining problems are more along the lines of integrating into the built environment. You can't have trains sending sonic booms to every ******** it passes on route. This is what the ongoing tests are for, because JR Central knows that people will complain a lot about these things, as they have encountered similar back in the JNR days with the San'you Shinkansen (which was constructed differently than the Toukaidou and thus had *** problems to solve). Apart from those environmental issues, the MLX-01's technology is already verified as safe and ready for commercial use, but there is actually no funding for the construction of a *** next-gen Shinkansen.
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Old April 1st, 2007, 03:11 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by hix View Post
I've read that the world record on the eastern line costed 30.000.000 euros. I have difficulty beleaving this. Is there somebody who knows more about this? 30 milion is extremely much for one train-ride! Maybe the journalist was confused somewhere?
Track repairs. 550km/h for a conventional train is some painful friction the infrastructure was never designed to take. Tracks and overhead wires are destroyed.
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Old April 1st, 2007, 07:19 PM   #111
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Track repairs. 550km/h for a conventional train is some painful friction the infrastructure was never designed to take. Tracks and overhead wires are destroyed.
??? What the hell is this nonsense? If tracks and wires are destroyed, then it means that the TGV flies too , and that it runs by coal power?

The Eastern TGV line is brand ***, it already cost millions and took 7 years to build, you realy think they are going to screw it?
If this record costs money, it's because it requires engineering, lightening of the train, *** motors....
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Old April 1st, 2007, 07:21 PM   #112
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Is it possible to build tracks that can take such a speed? What is the use of spending so much money. I hope it's not only to get into the guinness book of records. There are cheaper ways to do that.
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 11:27 AM   #113
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The TGV uses articulated bogies between carriages to minimise sway and prevent jack-knifing in the event of a derailment, and it works quite well from what I know. However, the German ICE, Italian ETR500 and Japanese Shinkansen don't use this method to main stability between carriages. What methods do they employ instead?
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 03:45 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Luc View Post
The TGV uses articulated bogies between carriages to minimise sway and prevent jack-knifing in the event of a derailment, and it works quite well from what I know. However, the German ICE, Italian ETR500 and Japanese Shinkansen don't use this method to main stability between carriages. What methods do they employ instead?
From Japanese Railway Technology Today by Railway Technical Research Institute and East Japan Railway Culture Foundation, chapter 3; Shinkansen Bogies, pp. 35-36

Quote:
-Incorporated springs and oil dampers in bodie suspension, significantly reducing vibration
-Mounted traction motor on bogie frame instead of using nose suspension system and also used parallel cardan drie system to transmit power to wheelset via flexible couplings and gears, greatly reducing bogie weight, in turn permitting faster speeds on shinkansen and other electric trains.
-Adopted press-welded structure fro bogie frames, reducing frame weight considerably.
-Introduced disk brakes, increasing braking power, in turn permitting faster speeds

(snip)

Graded Wheel Tread Gradient

(snip)

The circular configuration which is shaped like a large number of arcs aligned next to each other, supposes a wheel tread that has already been subjected to wear. This configuration reduces contact bearing forces between the wheel tread and the running surface of the rail. This means less wheel tread wear, which in turn means that better running performance is kept for longer periods of time. The effective gradient of shinkansen circular weheel treads is about 1:16, which meets demands for both stability at high speeds and excelling running performance on curved track.
That is just the beginning of the chapter, it gets into a fair amount of detail. The book can be purchased from www.jrtr.net.
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 03:52 PM   #115
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??? What the hell is this nonsense? If tracks and wires are destroyed, then it means that the TGV flies too , and that it runs by coal power?

The Eastern TGV line is brand ***, it already cost millions and took 7 years to build, you realy think they are going to screw it?
If this record costs money, it's because it requires engineering, lightening of the train, *** motors....
You're an ignoramus, yes it can get damaged. However, LGV has apparently addressed the issues of the past tests, which I was not aware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_construction
Quote:
The quality of construction was put to the test in particular during the TGV world speed record runs on the LGV Atlantique; the track was used at over 500 km/h (310 mph) without suffering significant damage. This contrasts with previous French world rail speed record attempts which resulted in severe deformation of the track.
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 05:31 PM   #116
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It also prove that in a near future, top commercial speed will be pushed over 320 (Paris - Strasbourg).
Since 2001, the TGV runs at 320kph during 40km between Avignon and Aix en Provence...

Last edited by [email protected]; April 2nd, 2007 at 05:37 PM.
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 05:53 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRZ View Post
You're an ignoramus, yes it can get damaged. However, LGV has apparently addressed the issues of the past tests, which I was not aware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_construction
This contrasts with previous French world rail speed record attempts which resulted in severe deformation of the track.


first : wikipedia UK is not really what we can call a source as regards TGV and LGV in france...

second : the only damages on a track caused by a high speed record in france, have been endured in the end 50's begin 60's when the speed have been pushed on top 300~350 kph

third : those superstructures that are the LGV cost lot of money, so don't take the french for silly men, all the top speed test were made with maximum security for the people in the train that saved the record, and for the superstructure that are and will be used to commercial exploitation...

sncf, alstom and rff take no risk just to beat their own record...
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 06:17 PM   #118
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first : wikipedia UK is not really what we can call a source as regards TGV and LGV in france...

second : the only damages on a track caused by a high speed record in france, have been endured in the end 50's begin 60's when the speed have been pushed on top 300~350 kph

third : those superstructures that are the LGV cost lot of money, so don't take the french for silly men, all the top speed test were made with maximum security for the people in the train that saved the record, and for the superstructure that are and will be used to commercial exploitation...

sncf, alstom and rff take no risk just to beat their own record...
But, I still don't understand why it's so expensive to beat this record. (30.000.000 euro's)
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 06:34 PM   #119
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it's the cost of the special TGV that will explode the record, and all technologies shiped in.

as jean luc said, the TGV uses articulated bogies between carriages, it is propulsed with two locomotive on each extremities.
the TGV that will beat its own record is a new generation, those articulated bogies between carriage are now motorized, that give more power and use less energy

the 30.000.000 € are the cost of this new train and the cost of energy (electric, human, etc) for this record... the objective of this record is to prove that this technology is now effective... because during the period 2010-2020, sncf will renewed its 500 TGV... alstom has to prove that its technology is always the best...
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 06:49 PM   #120
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I know this train is not fully new but, for instance, the price of a TGV classic was 15M. euros and a TGV Duplex between 24 and 28M. euros...
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