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Old June 17th, 2016, 10:38 AM   #1181
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Originally Posted by BlackArt-ist View Post
-stillborn LGV Rhin-Rhône southern branch towards Lyon
One thing I cannot understand is why the southern branch of the LGV Rhin-Rhône has been put on hold or at least in lower priority compared to other LGV projects. For me it looks to be one of the most important future sections of the TGV network, if not the most important.

Personally I do not see any point to have the eastern branch ready without the southern part in the short term plans for project development at least. I also do not see making much sense the planned western branch which will probably start its construction prior to the southern branch.

People from the region around Basel and other parts in north Switzerland, south Germany and the very east of France who want to travel towards Paris also have the option of the LGV Est or a combination of the LGV Est and the ICE network, which in many cases will be preferable over the LGV Rhin-Rhône eastern + western option. However, towards the south France there is no any efficient high speed service for them.

The southern LGV Rhin-Rhône in combination with the existing eastern part will open up new horizons for the rail transportation across Europe. In fact it will connect significant economical centres of central Europe like Zurich, Basel, Stuttgart, Munich etc. and the populous southern German regions of Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria with the tourist destinations in Cote d'Azur and the Spanish Mediterranean coast as well as with other important Mediterranean cities like Marseilles, Nice and Barcelona. Not to mention the benefit from the fast freight transportation.

If the cost for the southern branch is too high to start the project soon, maybe they should consider another shorter connection to the LGV Paris-Lyon, not right in Lyon as planned but somewhere more north if possible, which could replace both the planned southern and the western branches.
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Old June 17th, 2016, 10:47 AM   #1182
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So no LGVs planned to Italy (Modane) and Spain (Perpignan)?
The Nîmes – Montpellier Bypass section which is under construction is a part of the LGV towards Spain and Perpignan. It is planned to open in late 2017. The rest Montpellier-Perpignan section is also in the plans and the route has been approved by the French ministry a few months ago but no dates for its construction have been set yet.
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Old June 17th, 2016, 10:48 AM   #1183
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So no LGVs planned to Italy (Modane) and Spain (Perpignan)?
No, they are planned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin–...-speed_railway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contou..._–_Montpellier (closing the gap in half with a later phase to plug it)
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Old June 19th, 2016, 08:13 PM   #1184
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So is this going to be the main connection from Toulouse to Paris once open?

I have to say France plans its LGV network pretty well to reduce costs. Currently the unfinished TGV via Bordeaux seems to take nearly as much as the InterCity via Brive-la-Gaillarde.
Currently the main connection from Toulouse to Paris is... the plane.

Only people on budget or with time to lose take the train. The Toulouse-Paris air route is one of the 3 busiest in Europe. Last year there were 3.2 million passengers on that route (up +1.6% compared to the previous year, and +8.5% compared to the average of the 2000s; air traffic between Paris and Toulouse has significantly increased since 2011).

Toulouse is an airspace city, so for many people there it's just natural to fly. More similar to the US than to Europe. That's why in the Toulouse forum few people are enthusiastic about the arrival of the TGV. They feel it's a waste of money that could be better invested in the infrastructures of the region. For example a majority of Toulouse forumers are more in favor of a Toulouse-Montpellier and Toulouse-Perpignan TGV line than a Toulouse-Bordeaux line.

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Old June 19th, 2016, 08:49 PM   #1185
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Is that because no one there is particularly interested in going to Bordeaux? A TGV in that direction would be much faster than driving and of course it's too close to fly.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 10:15 PM   #1186
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Is that because no one there is particularly interested in going to Bordeaux? A TGV in that direction would be much faster than driving and of course it's too close to fly.
Toulouse - Bordeaux doesn't really need a TGV. An intercity service comparable to what a similar line would get in Germany or the UK would already be a huge improvement.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 10:20 PM   #1187
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I wondered if they couldn't build a LVG linking Clemont-Ferrand and Lyon. A spur of sorts, not very long.
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Old June 19th, 2016, 11:31 PM   #1188
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Toulouse - Bordeaux doesn't really need a TGV. An intercity service comparable to what a similar line would get in Germany or the UK would already be a huge improvement.
Right, but what is the current situation? If nothing close to such a line exists and a new one would have to be built then it makes sense to build a full TGV line so that it's competitive to Paris as well. If there is already 160-200 km/h line then I agree.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 12:28 AM   #1189
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Along the existing line the distance is 250 km, and the fastest trains take two hours. So the line isn't exactly slow. But there are big gaps in the schedule. There is a train from Toulouse to Bordeaux at 6:04 and then at 9:04 for example. I think that improving the line and integrating it better would serve the area better.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 12:35 AM   #1190
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Not exactly fast either with the average being barely above 100 km/h. A TGV line could easily be 1 h 20 min.

You are right about frequency, but that seems to be a problem almost everywhere except Switzerland, Germany and pehaps UK.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 12:37 AM   #1191
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4 h service to Paris would probably cut the air traffic in half. That's a worthy target too. Less pollution, more space for flights to destinations not suitable for trains.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 01:37 AM   #1192
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You are right about frequency, but that seems to be a problem almost everywhere except Switzerland, Germany and pehaps UK.
Both Holland and Belgium have far superior frequencies than the UK.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 02:39 AM   #1193
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I wondered if they couldn't build a LVG linking Clemont-Ferrand and Lyon. A spur of sorts, not very long.
It's mountain. You'll need lot of tunnels. Too expensive, no sufficient patronage.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 03:12 AM   #1194
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Toulouse - Bordeaux doesn't really need a TGV. An intercity service comparable to what a similar line would get in Germany or the UK would already be a huge improvement.
You will already have a sped up service from time savings with Sud Europe Atlantique opening to Bordeuax. Currently it takes 3 hours and 32 minutes from Paris-Bordeax and it will go down to 2 hours and 5 minutes. That would result in an hour and 25 minute time savings to Tolouse bringing it from the current 5.5-6.5 hours into the 4-5 hour range.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 04:02 AM   #1195
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Paris - Bordeaux - Toulouse is not an efficient route. I have always favored the long-considered POLT route: Paris - Orlean - Limoges - Toulouse, despite that the Limoges - Toulouse section would have a high cost per kilometer due to the terrain. The POLT route is 80-100 kilometers shorter than via Bordeaux. Paris - Toulouse would be about 2:30 rather than about 3:00 via Bordeaux.

For those who read French, this is an interesting article from last year: http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2015...p-d-arret.html
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Old June 20th, 2016, 12:29 PM   #1196
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Paris - Bordeaux - Toulouse is not an efficient route. I have always favored the long-considered POLT route: Paris - Orlean - Limoges - Toulouse, despite that the Limoges - Toulouse section would have a high cost per kilometer due to the terrain.
Given the expected costs it would not be possible to make such a line
profitable. Look, they already have a profitability problem with the line to
Bordeaux, which is a much larger city than Toulouse, and with a much easier
terrain to cope with. POLT could only make sense with enhancing the existing
line so that pendolinos can travel faster on it. But SNCF doesn't believe in this
solution.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 12:58 PM   #1197
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Maybe the Bordeaux - Toulouse LGV section in the current state does not make much sense but if one day the Toulouse - Montpellier section will be added to the network then we might see significant traffic increase due to other routes served by the Bordeaux - Toulouse line such as Bordeaux - Marseille, Bordeaux - Nice, Bordeaux - Lyon, Bordeaux - Barcelona etc.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 01:19 PM   #1198
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Bordeaux, which is a much larger city than Toulouse....
2012 Population of Bordeaux: 241,287 (9th largest in France)
2012 Population of Toulouse: 453,317 (4th largest in France)
Source: http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/tablea...id=nattef01214
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Old June 20th, 2016, 01:48 PM   #1199
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2012 Population of Bordeaux: 241,287 (9th largest in France)
2012 Population of Toulouse: 453,317 (4th largest in France)
Source: http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/tablea...id=nattef01214
And in terms of metropolitan areas Toulouse is also bigger according to this plus Toulouse due to Airbus is a very important city for industry. For example I know people here in Germany who travel frequently to Toulouse on business trips.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 02:42 PM   #1200
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I don't understand this discussion. The LGV Bordeaux-Toulouse is the natural extension of the LGV SEA (Sud Europe Atlantique). It will eventually connect the 4th largest to the largest conurbation in France routing through the geographically easier and denser populated areas along the Atlantic coast. That makes perfectly sense and is precisely what the high-speed technology has been developed for.
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