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Old March 6th, 2017, 09:03 PM   #1301
Minato ku
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TGV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisavoine
Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddor View Post
OK I understand that the previous map is quite optimistic to happen by 2030 because of the overall investment that should be made, but the main backbone is already visible even today. Below is the TGV network showing the current state and the future extentions. The time frame is tight for the corresponding new lines, however, these segments are still feasible provided other concessions are started.
Paris-Bordeaux will open for service in summer. Rennes and Montpellier are going to be connected by HS lines this year.
I agree that Paris-Orleans-Lyon is not urgent. Lyon-Torino is on the agenda sooner or later in the future like Marseille-Nice. On the other hand, the south connection from Bordeaux towards Spain and Madrid as the final goal is quite reasonable. The same holds by the way for the link from Montpellier towards Barcelona. And of course a connection between Bordeaux and Avignon through Toulouse is also very important as the HSL ring will be completed in France.
Note that the new high-speed line to Montpellier will in fact not be a high-speed line, because they have stupidly limited speed on that new line to only 220 km/h (which happens frequently on high-speed lines in Spain, Italy, Germany, but which is unique in France; for comparison, 220 km/h is the current speed on the old Tours-Bordeaux line before they open the new high-speed Tours-Bordeaux line this summer, which will allow TGV to ride at 320 km/h, thus slashing one full hour off the journey between Paris and Bordeaux/Toulouse ). The reason for that is one of these typical French 'Judgments of Solomon': "We don't have the money to build it, so ok let's build it but then save cost on the signaling system". Supposedly at some point in the future the signaling system will be updated so trains can ride at 300 km/h.

Regarding the future, the lines that will probably be built (by the end of the 2020s) are Bordeaux-Toulouse, Bordeaux-French Basque Country, very unfortunately (in my opinion) the useless and costly Lyon-Turin, and then also Montpellier-Perpignan, and Toulouse-Narbonne. All other lines are not going to be built, at least not in the 2020s.

The most certain lines are Bordeaux-Toulouse and Lyon-Turin (unfortunately). If push comes to shove and most projects are shelved, these two projects at least will be built. Next in line are Bordeaux-French Basque Country and Montpellier-Perpignan, which are slightly less likely than the previous two lines. Then finally Toulouse-Narbonne, which the government is not keen to make a priority, but which the new (and stupidly named) "Occitanie" region is vociferously pushing forward.

I'm afraid that Montpellier-Perpignan won't be a real high-speed line though, and speed there will be limited just like on the new Nîmes-Montpellier line (which they are going to use for freight trains too ).
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Old March 6th, 2017, 09:35 PM   #1302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisavoine
Where does Brisavoine post his answers?
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Old March 7th, 2017, 10:22 AM   #1303
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Merci for the clarifications. If only we (smaller countries like Bulgaria) had your problems in France, considering a line for 220km/h not sufficiently fast.
Indeed it will be best to make the line through Montpellier for 320km/h from the very beginning. It may happen that you spend more money as a whole if you make it in two steps but in any case the line will be upgraded to the upper limit.
As for the passage through the Alps (Lyon-Turin), it will cost immense amount of money and take at least a decade for drilling the base tunnel only, but I am sure the line will pay off afterwards. The perspective of taking the train from London in the morning, doing business in Paris and enjoying Rome in the evening, will be simply amazing.

Last edited by roaddor; March 7th, 2017 at 10:33 AM.
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Old May 27th, 2017, 12:44 PM   #1304
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The final report on the Eckwersheim accident is now published:
Quote:
La cause directe de l’accident est la vitesse de 255 km/h dans une courbe serrée de 945 m de rayon.
Cet excès de vitesse est dû à un freinage inapproprié par rapport à la vitesse initiale du train pour aborder la zone où la vitesse maximale prescrite n’est plus que de 176 km/h, et qui commence juste avant la courbe en question.

Ce freinage inapproprié est lui-même le produit de trois chaînes causales :

-une stratégie de freinage inadaptée, résultant d’un raisonnement erroné et prévoyant un freinage pneumatique au PK 402 pour respecter le seuil de 176 km/h au PK 403,809 ;
-une incompréhension entre le cadre transport traction (CTT) et le reste de l’équipage sur les modalités du freinage se traduisant par le relâchement du frein électrique par le conducteur et le maintien de la vitesse de 330 km/h jusqu’au déclenchement du freinage pneumatique ;
-un appel interphonique pendant le freinage qui a perturbé le CTT et l’a empêché de voir que le frein électrique avait été relâché contrairement à la stratégie qu’il avait prévue.
It says nothing of the presence of seven people in the cabin.
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Old May 27th, 2017, 12:52 PM   #1305
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SNCF renames TGV by inOui

SNCF : les TGV vont s'appeler... inOui Le Parisien 26/05/2017

SNCF renames TGV by inOui

SNCF changed the name TGV by inOui from 2 July at the inauguration of the new SEA HSR (Sud Europe Atlantique), towards Bordeaux. It will then make its appearance on the trains of Paris-Lyon and Paris-Strasbourg later this year. "The goal is to have 30% of the TGV park changed by the end of 2017.
IDTGV also disappears.
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Old May 28th, 2017, 05:47 PM   #1306
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inOui. What a bad name. TGV is a household name, even in other languages. When I hear the name inOui I can only think 'in what?'. In yes?
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Old May 29th, 2017, 04:35 AM   #1307
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Honestly, I've seen better decision making in Sncf.

There are lots of memes going around of (not just) French people complaining and making fun of this stupid name change.
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Old May 29th, 2017, 06:03 AM   #1308
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Not to mention it sounds vaguely like ennui....Hardly a positive association.

Honestly, sometimes I'm dumbfounded at the choices management--apparently in all countries, in all industries, public and private--make regarding marketing.
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Old May 29th, 2017, 07:00 PM   #1309
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From SNCF:
Quote:
Bonjour Cole,
TGV reste TGV, soit la dénomination du matériel.
inOUI fait référence à l'offre de services enrichie dont vont pouvoir bénéficier nos voyageurs dans les années à venir
Plus de confort, plus de connectivité et un accueil plus personnalisé.
Bon après-midi à vous !
Trains will continue to be called TGV, the highest level services will be inOUI and the low cost Ouigo.
The rest of the denominations for internal routes by France disappear, the international denominations does not vary.
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Old May 29th, 2017, 07:27 PM   #1310
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That is what I had understood as well: inOui and OuiGo will be sub-classes of TGV service.

Like Frecciabianca and Frecciarossa are subclasses of Freccie Italian high-speed rail service.
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Old May 29th, 2017, 07:35 PM   #1311
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... and Frecciargento.

I understand that the commercial dénomination TGV disappears and only remains as denomination of the own trains:

SNCF to rebrand TGV services as ‘inOui’ Railway Gazette
Quote:
SNCF confirmed local media reports that its TGV network of high speed passenger services is to be rebranded as ‘inOui’.
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Old May 29th, 2017, 07:38 PM   #1312
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More interestingly, the Ouigo network will be expanded:
Quote:
PLUS DE OUIGO

Vous aimez OUIgo : l’essentiel de la grande vitesse à petit prix et une offre simple et directe.
OUIgo se multiplie et représentera 25% des voyages à grande vitesse avec :
  • 30 destinations sur tous les grands axes nationaux
  • 34 nouvelles rames TGV
  • 5 fois plus de voyageurs profitant de ses petits prix
- 30 destinations (Ouigo currently serves 19 stations)
- 34 new TGV Ouigo trains
- 5 times as much passengers who will profit from Ouigo's low prices
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Old May 29th, 2017, 08:10 PM   #1313
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InOUI presentation:
Quote:
Originally Posted by yokohama View Post
El rebranding ha sido presentado hoy en la Gare de Montparnasse:






.
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Old May 29th, 2017, 09:06 PM   #1314
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So, it's some sort of classing? However, instead of Standard and Business classes on the same train, are they going to split them on separate trains?

The name itself is weird. I guess 90% of people will keep asking for TGV tickets at the guichets for a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
the international denominations does not vary.
I, for one, would prefer a simpler name than Renfe-SNCF en cóoperation. This is ridiculous, I still wonder why they don't kept the Elipsos brand name. The name is also a half joke beacuse both companies are rather uncooperative between them.

By the way:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
The final report on the Eckwersheim accident is now published:

It says nothing of the presence of seven people in the cabin.
Au contraire, point 5.1 of the report is dedicated to this issue, and is also mentioned on other parts of the report, even figure 24 shows the relative position of every person on the cab. However, after everyone on the cab confirmed that the non-duty members did not move nor talk during the run, and after a reconstruction showed that their position on the cab did not interfere with the tasks of the on-duty members, the BEA-TT reached the conclusion that having 7 people on the cab had nothing to do with the accident, nor even is against rules on test runs.

If anything, the report questions the tasks of the on-duty members: besides the actual driver, their functions are not clearly defined which contributed to the accident, as neither did notice that the discussed braking plan was not being properly followed.

Mostly, the problem was a misunderstanding on how the braking should have been done. On the previous run there was another misunderstanding, however in that case braking was made too early so the top speed for the last section could not be properly tested. After that run, a new braking plan was proposed on which the electric brake was planned to be kept applied and, after a while, use a full service brake to comply with the speed limit imposed by the tight curve. However, and also due to a distraction by an incoming call from the lab coach, the person who planned the braking was distracted when the driver released the electric brake instead of keeping it applied. Then, when the point where the full brake was due was reached and announced, it was too late.

Other factors that the report points are that the speed limit drop from 330kph to 176 meant that effectively the top speed before the 176 section couldn't be tested at all and was well above the limits which would be enforced by the signalling, so questions the point on extending the top speed tests so far. Also, due to the testings running at 110% of top speed, the signalling safety systems had to be disabled so any overspeed past the point of safe braking put the train in a situation where the accident was unavoidable before it happened.

This last part I've explained reminded me so strongly of the Santiago de Compostela train disaster where a Renfe trainset derailed on a tight curve where there was a speed limit drop from 200kph to just 80, with the aggravating factor that the ERTMS safety system did end 4km before the curve and so its speed protection was seriously compromised, although it did not actually matter because ERTMS was disabled due to compatibility problems between the track and the trainset, using instead a fallback system (ASFA) which does not enfoce track speed limits, only those imposed by signalling like approaching a red signal. It's sad to see how the CIAF report (CIAF is the Spanish equivalent of French's BEA-TT) was mainly focused on the phone call the driver received but paid almost no attention at all at the serious danger of running without speed protection on such a heavy limit drop: as with the Eckwersheim accident, when the drived applied brakes it was too late. Also, there was no signage reminding him of the need to brake, the drivers having been used to brake taking as a reference an scenery point.

Also, the CIAF report added recomendations to make train tickets nominative and also issue tickets for non-fare child passengers so, in case of accident, they could be more easily identified. This misses the point of the CIAF itself, which should be focusing on preventing further accidents, not sorting things out when one unfortunately happens.
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Old May 29th, 2017, 09:32 PM   #1315
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They will be different services: the one that costs more money with all the extras: inOui, and the cheap, without billing and in remote stations will be: Ouigo. Ouigo trains are Duplex without first class or cafeteria. And the TGV brand will end up being bought by an eyewear company

What Elipsos actually is even worse: society is Elipsos International, and the brand: Renfe and SNCF in Cooperation. Anyone understands that it should be the other way around.

So 7 people in a cabin did not interfere If you go twice when you are distracted.
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Old May 29th, 2017, 09:56 PM   #1316
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According to SNCF the name inOUI is intended to allude to "inno" which is colloquial for "innovation". But I would agree that the more secret agenda is probably to prepare the grounds for shifting more of the passenger service towards the similarly named OuiGo. They have learnt a lesson from the air transport where it has been extremely painful for Air France (inter alia because of the trade unions) to shift activities toward its budget carrier subsidiary
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Old May 29th, 2017, 11:00 PM   #1317
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Seriously?! The TGV is a massive global brand and has a 35 year-old name attached to it. Why would they change it? In Romania "TGV" is even used as the pars-pro-toto name for high speed trains, as in "OMG, I went to Germany and tried their TGVs". This is a bit like Coca Cola rebranding itself.
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Old May 30th, 2017, 03:09 AM   #1318
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I agree.

Trenitalia's situation is a bit different, since the "Freccia" levels represent services with different speeds (like IC and ICE for DB); plus, since there was no public recognition of the train's names, they are pushing a lot to create a single identity between rolling stocks and services, which is exactly the opposite of what SNCF is doing now.

Since the Frecciarossa reached a greater succes, they are now shifting more services to that brand (and its corresponding rolling stock), and the only different commercial name being introduced is Frecciarossa1000 to signal that the latest stock is used for that service (but that's the only difference among that category, same price, same performance).

TGV is a brand known even by people who hardly understand what a train is.
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Old May 30th, 2017, 03:44 AM   #1319
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Germany and France desperately need a high-moneyed flashy private competitor. Italo was the very best thing to have happened to railway services in Italy since the dawn of tilting trains from Fiat Ferroviaria.

I mean: a private competitor with muscle, big enough to fend off price wars and withstand them, not a small enterprise with some hand-me-down stock.

That could force SNCF to up its game.
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Old May 30th, 2017, 03:56 AM   #1320
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Well, SRT in South Korea has proven to be a strong competitor to KTX, even though both are technically operations of the public national operator, Korail. However, two things set SRT apart from KTX.

First of all, SRT has exclusive rights to operate on the Suseo HSR line into southeastern Seoul, at least for now, yet maintains access to the rest of South Korea's high-speed network. This comes with a lot of obvious benefits. Secondly, SRT is a subsidiary of Korail, not simply a separate brand of train service. This means, once again, a lot of obvious benefits--their trains are setup to different specifications, they have a different pricing structure, etc.

So, private, a competitor rail company need not be, but it does have to be able to operate somewhat independently in order for there to be a difference between the entities significant enough to induce customers to change their service provider, creating competition with the old provider to change and innovate. This has already been seen in Korail's KTX services, which is going to lengths such as providing connector bus services to metro stations or other locations near their stations.

I do have to say that if, as that concept livery seems to suggest, there will be entirely different trains for inOui and ouiGo, this seems like a mistake. I would imagine that kind of inflexibility, in terms of service provisions for passengers, will end up creating more empty seats.
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