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Old December 25th, 2013, 08:53 PM   #2041
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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
It could be better. There are great areas with few population and bad service... it is expensive to improve the network there but some thing can be done at a terrible cheap price.
I was thinking more on overbuilt HSR network. At least I've heard it is overbuilt on some French documentaries about white elephant projects in Spain.
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Old December 25th, 2013, 09:57 PM   #2042
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Originally Posted by BE0GRAD View Post
I was thinking more on overbuilt HSR network. At least I've heard it is overbuilt on some French documentaries about white elephant projects in Spain.
There are many white elephant projects in Spain alright, but non of them are railways. What has up until now been built will form the backbone of the Spanish transport system. However any system is only as strong as its weakest link and until the basic network is finished, its true potential will not be realised. This will be the situation for atleast another 15-20 years until the basic network is finished.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 12:37 AM   #2043
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Originally Posted by BE0GRAD View Post
I was thinking more on overbuilt HSR network. At least I've heard it is overbuilt on some French documentaries about white elephant projects in Spain.
In my opinion, one of the problem is... it is not easy to transfer from HSR to conventional trains. They could improve possible journeys but they do not do almost anything.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 01:08 AM   #2044
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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
In my opinion, one of the problem is... it is not easy to transfer from HSR to conventional trains. They could improve possible journeys but they do not do almost anything.
You mean that HSR and conventional trains stop at the same stations? I think I saw such solutions in some Chinese cities.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 01:14 AM   #2045
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but i think that the intention is to deprecate the conventional network as is in the future, integrating it to the hsn (a change of gauge will be required sooner or later)
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Old December 26th, 2013, 01:26 AM   #2046
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Originally Posted by BE0GRAD View Post
You mean that HSR and conventional trains stop at the same stations? I think I saw such solutions in some Chinese cities.
Not exactly.


Below image is Calatayud station. Conventional tracks and in the right of the image (sharing the same platform!!) the HSR.

There aren't integrated schedules. You can travel from/to Calatayud but no passengers will think to travel from the nearby of Calatayud to anywhere with a transfer because it can take too long and all problems if a delay happens are for you.

There is not enough "transfer culture" in Spain yet.



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Old December 26th, 2013, 01:40 AM   #2047
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Until very recently Renfe wasn't even showing routes with connections on it's website…
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Old December 26th, 2013, 02:58 AM   #2048
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I don't get this criticism for Spanish HSR projects. The old lines were kinda crap, the line between Zaragoza and Reus was ridiculously slow and single-tracked!

They need to let some competitors operate trains as well, though. Something like NTV in Italy. That would improve service and provide more options. Problem is that Porta d Atocha is quite busy though (but the lines aren't).
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Old December 26th, 2013, 03:38 AM   #2049
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Problem is that Porta d Atocha is quite busy though (but the lines aren't).
Barcelona Sants is probably even a bigger problem now, it has only 6 tracks. Until Barcelona Sagrera open in 4 or 5 years time, it will be difficult to add many slots because the only service area for HSR trains is located to the south of the station and can only be reached by crossing the northbound track, so it is a nightmare trying to free up tracks in the station itself. You basically have to do a Ryanair turnaround scheme whereby you offload the train and then load the train almost immediately so that new trains can enter the station.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 05:29 PM   #2050
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What's the point of keeping the Lleida - La Pobla de Segur line with only one train a day? There are also two buses a day doing the same trip. With such a service, nobody but a few tourists and carless people can be attracted...

http://www.fgc.cat/eng/cercador.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lleida_..._de_Segur_line

I once wanted to take that line, but I would have had to leave Barcelona at 6 am or so, returning there at around 17, so taking a whole day, so I have given up.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #2051
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Last summer I saw 30 km/h signals and one forumer said that nothing was planned to improve that branch
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Old December 26th, 2013, 07:29 PM   #2052
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What are chances of a major re-work there to extend the line to Andorra?
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Old December 26th, 2013, 07:45 PM   #2053
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What are chances of a major re-work there to extend the line to Andorra?
We've just talked about it in a Spanish thread and really nothing. All major Pyrinean resorts or cities should be approached by HSR and bus... that's all.

Should Andorran government want to have a link the nearest network is the French one here:
https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.583612...84543&t=h&z=14

and network there isn't a HSR at all and they should have to build a great tunnel.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 07:53 PM   #2054
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Originally Posted by BE0GRAD View Post
I was thinking more on overbuilt HSR network. At least I've heard it is overbuilt on some French documentaries about white elephant projects in Spain.
Iīd only consider the Mediterranean coast as 'overbuilt', but more in terms of housing, since in terms of railway, Spain is clearly underbuilt.

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
There are many white elephant projects in Spain alright, but non of them are railways. What has up until now been built will form the backbone of the Spanish transport system.
Iīd rather scrap the Zaragoza-Huesca HSL from that 'backbone'.
Some things on the Madrid-Valencia/Alicante/Murcia could have been better done, as well...
Just as much as the size of some HSR station buildings.

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
However any system is only as strong as its weakest link and until the basic network is finished, its true potential will not be realised. This will be the situation for atleast another 15-20 years until the basic network is finished.
I think that weīll need less than 20 years to see it start developing.
See Barcelona-Zaragoza-Seville/Malaga. These travel times between Barcelona/Zaragoza and Seville/Malaga were unthought of when the Madrid-Seville HSL opened.
The main thing will be the tunnel under Madrid, to link the North HSL to the Barcelona, Valencia and Seville HSLs.

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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
In my opinion, one of the problem is... it is not easy to transfer from HSR to conventional trains. They could improve possible journeys but they do not do almost anything.
In many cases, itīs not down to the HSR, itīs more because of the low population density.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BE0GRAD View Post
You mean that HSR and conventional trains stop at the same stations? I think I saw such solutions in some Chinese cities.
Barcelona-Sants, Madrid-Atocha, Alicante, Albacete, Lleida, Girona, Valladolid-Campo Grande, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordoba, Seville-Santa Justa, Malaga-Maria Zambrano, Calatayud, Zaragoza-Delicias stations allow transfers between HSR and classic rail.

Antequera-Santa Ana station allows it too, but that is clearly underdeveloped in the area (theyīve only just realised about it).

Camp de Tarragona could allow it if they rebuilt the old classic Reus-Roda de Bara line (closed in 1990).

Valencia-Joaquin Sorolla allows it (but you have to walk, take a bus/metro to the neighbouring Valencia-Nord station), but itīs a provisory station (only that we just donīt know for how long).

Corunna, Ourense and Santiago stations allow it, but in fact theyīve been designed with the gauge change in mind.

The other stations donīt allow it (or not yet).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
but i think that the intention is to deprecate the conventional network as is in the future, integrating it to the hsn (a change of gauge will be required sooner or later)
Donīt get that, sorry. Rewrite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Not exactly.

Below image is Calatayud station. Conventional tracks and in the right of the image (sharing the same platform!!) the HSR.

There aren't integrated schedules. You can travel from/to Calatayud but no passengers will think to travel from the nearby of Calatayud to anywhere with a transfer because it can take too long and all problems if a delay happens are for you.

There is not enough "transfer culture" in Spain yet.

In the case of Calatayud, where would you like to change for (keeping in mind that the trains should rather NOT BE EMPTY)?
Calatayud lies in the heart of the least populated area in the country (the inside of the triangle Tarragona-Burgos-Albacete)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Until very recently Renfe wasn't even showing routes with connections on it's website…
True. Theyīre starting to, though, just donīt expect them to be Swiss in two minutes, thatīd be an overkill. This week they already show a new AVE+bus transfer at Lleida for both Andorra and Vielha. Not bad, that one.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I don't get this criticism for Spanish HSR projects. The old lines were kinda crap, the line between Zaragoza and Reus was ridiculously slow and single-tracked!
The Spanish classic lines are not as rubbish as some say (well, at least some of them).
Itīs only that Spainīs the most mountainous country in Europe right after Switzerland.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
They need to let some competitors operate trains as well, though. Something like NTV in Italy. That would improve service and provide more options. Problem is that Porta d Atocha is quite busy though (but the lines aren't).
Here we have you being yourself again.

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Barcelona Sants is probably even a bigger problem now, it has only 6 tracks. Until Barcelona Sagrera open in 4 or 5 years time, it will be difficult to add many slots because the only service area for HSR trains is located to the south of the station and can only be reached by crossing the northbound track, so it is a nightmare trying to free up tracks in the station itself. You basically have to do a Ryanair turnaround scheme whereby you offload the train and then load the train almost immediately so that new trains can enter the station.
I donīt think Sagrera station will open in 4-5 years time AT ALL.
The most likely thing to happen is to take platforms 7 and 8 and regauge them to standard. Estació de Franįa could play the support role as it does now (itīs underused). El Prat, Girona, Figueres-Vilafant and Camp de Tarragona can play the support role in the HSR network.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
What's the point of keeping the Lleida - La Pobla de Segur line with only one train a day? There are also two buses a day doing the same trip. With such a service, nobody but a few tourists and carless people can be attracted...

http://www.fgc.cat/eng/cercador.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lleida_..._de_Segur_line
Austerity and politicians.
I suspect they want to close it, but they know that it would mean losing many votes in that constituency.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I once wanted to take that line, but I would have had to leave Barcelona at 6 am or so, returning there at around 17, so taking a whole day, so I have given up.
Lleida station has a hotel, you know...
DO NOT MISS THAT LINE. Itīs worth it.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 08:47 PM   #2055
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Iīd only consider the Mediterranean coast as 'overbuilt', but more in terms of housing, since in terms of railway, Spain is clearly underbuilt.
Aren't there also some airports where only pigeons are landing?

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Iīd rather scrap the Zaragoza-Huesca HSL from that 'backbone'.
Do you think actually running more trains on that line, even just Zaragoza-Huesca shuttles would be pointless?


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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
In the case of Calatayud, where would you like to change for (keeping in mind that the trains should rather NOT BE EMPTY)?
Calatayud lies in the heart of the least populated area in the country (the inside of the triangle Tarragona-Burgos-Albacete)
Just co-ordinating the schedules of already existing classical trains in such a way that whoever comes with AVE or wants to take it don't have to wait more than 10-15 min wouldn't make them any more empty than they already are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
True. Theyīre starting to, though, just donīt expect them to be Swiss in two minutes, thatīd be an overkill. This week they already show a new AVE+bus transfer at Lleida for both Andorra and Vielha. Not bad, that one.
There has been improvement certainly. In fact there has been a vast amount of improvement overall in the Spanish rail system in the last 10-15 years which I guess is a reason why this thread is so active. There is still work to do though, particularly on logistics side.

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
I donīt think Sagrera station will open in 4-5 years time AT ALL.
The most likely thing to happen is to take platforms 7 and 8 and regauge them to standard. Estació de Franįa could play the support role as it does now (itīs underused). El Prat, Girona, Figueres-Vilafant and Camp de Tarragona can play the support role in the HSR network.
Is that now one of those decades long projects with who knows when finishing date?
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Old December 26th, 2013, 10:26 PM   #2056
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Aren't there also some airports where only pigeons are landing?
Ouh yess, but although there are some links between the two things, overall the airport overdose weīve had is entirely another story, and has more to do with politicians and politics. Trains were always there, airports werenīt.

Still now there are places where a new railway line is really needed, while I canīt see anywhere in the country that would need a new airport (nor I did before the bubble).

The only HSL that could be labelled entirely as a white elephant is the Zaragoza-Huesca HSL. Some doubling of classic lines which already allow for good speed are also in question, in SSC-Spain (outside itīs more complex and journalists and politicians only make things look worse than they actually are).

Journalists and politicians take things way too far over the top, especially the foreign ones, who donīt understand that the national sport in Spain is self-loathing and next-door-neighbour bashing (no wonder that there is a region called 'The Gothic Fields' in Spain ).

When you look at the railway network of Poland, for instance, there arenīt any of the big gaps the Spanish railway map has, and both countries have similar population (in fact, Spain is a bit more populated than Poland), although I admit that Polandīs geography is not as complicated as Spainīs.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Do you think actually running more trains on that line, even just Zaragoza-Huesca shuttles would be pointless?
Zaragoza-Huesca has a problem, which is that it is not a real HSL, although itīs introduced as such. It only allows for 200km/h and it is single-track.
It even isnīt very competitive with the bus, since Zaragoza-Delicias station is not in the city centre! Besides, Huesca population is under 100,000...

Weīve learnt a few things out of it, though (first line to get the third rail, first line in single-track...). But overall, there was no need to build it, a gauge-change machine at Zaragoza-Miraflores would have largely been worth it. In fact, with the money it did cost, they could have upgraded the whole classic line till Canfranc instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Just co-ordinating the schedules of already existing classical trains in such a way that whoever comes with AVE or wants to take it don't have to wait more than 10-15 min wouldn't make them any more empty than they already are.
Itīs not so easy to coordinate trains when youīre officially short on classic rolling stock and the areas you want to serve are not densely populated. But youīre not wrong, either, and hereīs an area where other operators, if theyīre witty, could find their place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
There has been improvement certainly. In fact there has been a vast amount of improvement overall in the Spanish rail system in the last 10-15 years which I guess is a reason why this thread is so active.
Another reason why this thread is so active is that there are forumers who can write English, or forumers at all. Just look at the state of the French forum, there are also loads of things going on in France (or in Germany or the UK), but theyīre just not featured here because thereīs no one to do it. Mind you, Iīve even posted some news about France, myself, since no French forumer did!

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
There is still work to do though, particularly on logistics side.
Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Is that now one of those decades long projects with who knows when finishing date?
Ermm... I guess parts of it will.
The works keep on going on though, but very slowly and with not lots of workers.
This station wonīt be ready in 4-5 years, unless we see a big change of priorities (they can be as fast as hell when they want to, the easiest example is the reconstruction of Vigo-Urzaiz station, which is advancing crazily fast).
Sagrera station isnīt the top priority, right now.
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Old December 26th, 2013, 11:18 PM   #2057
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Is the trackbed of Zaragoza-Huesca entirely new? I thought it wasn't, so it can't be considered a new HSL, but a regauged line with some improvements.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 12:08 AM   #2058
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
When you look at the railway network of Poland, for instance, there arenīt any of the big gaps the Spanish railway map has, and both countries have similar population (in fact, Spain is a bit more populated than Poland), although I admit that Polandīs geography is not as complicated as Spainīs.
South Poland is hilly to mountainous in extreme south, but the rest of the country is pretty much flat as a pancake. It's a lot easier geography than in Spain albeit I think population distribution is more uniform with no "empty quarters" like you have.


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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Another reason why this thread is so active is that there are forumers who can write English, or forumers at all. Just look at the state of the French forum, there are also loads of things going on in France (or in Germany or the UK), but theyīre just not featured here because thereīs no one to do it. Mind you, Iīve even posted some news about France, myself, since no French forumer did!
Yes, but I don't think that's all or even most of the reason. Just check the activity of forum parts dealing with railways in various languages. Compared to Spanish German section is virtually dead and the French one is only marginally better. There are plenty of German rail enthusiasts (railway articles in wikipedia, for example, are often better in German than in English), but they must be congregating somewhere other than SSC.
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Old December 27th, 2013, 12:51 AM   #2059
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I think that weīll need less than 20 years to see it start developing.
See Barcelona-Zaragoza-Seville/Malaga. These travel times between Barcelona/Zaragoza and Seville/Malaga were unthought of when the Madrid-Seville HSL opened.
The main thing will be the tunnel under Madrid, to link the North HSL to the Barcelona, Valencia and Seville HSLs.
I agree. I remember being in a viewpoint near your city with people living in an area where train service has been improved but not HSL yet. They didn't know the area and I pointed the name of all the cities in those shires. That one is.. the other one is... and finally I said, and over there in the middle of those ones you have a station that helps you to arrive to Madrid in two hours or so and Seville in less than 5 hours and they opened their eyes as an owl... they were used to drive on roads, not always motorways (slower speed) and bad train service


Quote:
In many cases, itīs not down to the HSR, itīs more because of the low population density.
An both... in many cases, those few trains in low population density do not shuttle with HSR


Quote:
Barcelona-Sants, Madrid-Atocha, Alicante, Albacete, Lleida, Girona, Valladolid-Campo Grande, Ciudad Real, Puertollano, Cordoba, Seville-Santa Justa, Malaga-Maria Zambrano, Calatayud, Zaragoza-Delicias stations allow transfers between HSR and classic rail.

Antequera-Santa Ana station allows it too, but that is clearly underdeveloped in the area (theyīve only just realised about it).

Camp de Tarragona could allow it if they rebuilt the old classic Reus-Roda de Bara line (closed in 1990).

Valencia-Joaquin Sorolla allows it (but you have to walk, take a bus/metro to the neighbouring Valencia-Nord station), but itīs a provisory station (only that we just donīt know for how long).

Corunna, Ourense and Santiago stations allow it, but in fact theyīve been designed with the gauge change in mind.

The other stations donīt allow it (or not yet).

Well... you missed Madrid-Chamartin...


Could be consider Figueres-Vilafant too indeed?

Anyway, the question is why there is no further option in some stations. I remember that in Ireland there was a bus to shuttle two stations with separated networks and services. They could do it if they want.

Furthermore, Should be have to consider all those stations as transfer ones?

I am not sure...

Ciudad Real receives a lot of trains coming from Madrid (and Barcelona) and from Cordova (and Algeciras, Seville, Malaga and more...)
There are five trains to Manzanares/Alcazar. No one of them are assured to be ok on transfer.

A little more in the south, in Puertollano there is an official transfer since several years ago. It was a former Madrid-Badajoz via Puertollano.

Train had this journey more or less (I point it with roads, obviously in train it is not exactly the same one)
https://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=ma...=1,2,3,4,5&z=8

About nine hours of journey.

I took that train until the middle of La Mancha but there were many people going to those villages in the south of La Mancha, east of Extremadura (and north of Andalusia, there is one station there if I'm not wrong).

Several days later I took schedules and I saw that taking a regional HS train to Puertollano and transfer to THAT regional train just 15 minutes later would cost only 3 euro more and would save 3 hours journey!!!!!

Finally, several years ago they did it. To my best knowledge, direction Extremadura, train would wait if incidence (HS trains there are quite accurate). Direction Madrid you are entitled to get the first available train if there is a delay as well as a ticket refund.




Quote:
Lleida station has a hotel, you know...
DO NOT MISS THAT LINE. Itīs worth it.

Zaragoza Delicias has another one



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Old December 27th, 2013, 01:11 AM   #2060
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Zaragoza-Huesca has a problem, which is that it is not a real HSL, although itīs introduced as such. It only allows for 200km/h and it is single-track.
It even isnīt very competitive with the bus, since Zaragoza-Delicias station is not in the city centre! Besides, Huesca population is under 100,000...

It has barely half population of that one you say but... bus service runs every hour and every half hour in peak hours.

Why?. I do not know... but it is clear that, whilst nice to take first available bus, you may be thinking in next available train. Both ones starts and ends in the same station (bus and train), first stop in Zaragoza are close together in both cases and in trains there is one more: Goya, quite quite close to city centre.

But with similar journey times and fares, people prefer to take a bus. Why?. They do not have to think on schedules.

Barely 50-55.000 people but in the morning and evening, one bus every half an hour.



Quote:
Weīve learnt a few things out of it, though (first line to get the third rail, first line in single-track...). But overall, there was no need to build it, a gauge-change machine at Zaragoza-Miraflores would have largely been worth it. In fact, with the money it did cost, they could have upgraded the whole classic line till Canfranc instead.

I agree (maybe not all the line until Canfranc but many things could be done instead)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Is the trackbed of Zaragoza-Huesca entirely new? I thought it wasn't, so it can't be considered a new HSL, but a regauged line with some improvements.

Zaragoza-Tardienta is an entirely branch with a single track allowed to run until 200 km/h. It is stardard gauge (conventional one is absolutely paralel).
Railway is not absolutely isolated as well as there are some conventional rails that crosses over the HSR so maximum speed must be 200 until Tardienta.

It goes besides Villanueva and Zuera station but it is not possible to stop.


In Tardienta they can stop. They had to built a point to cross trains themselves and... they just make in Tardienta using two former conventional tracks (upgraded to standard) and a platform.

Tardienta building station is as much as you can see in this image
https://maps.google.es/maps?q=tardie...222.28,,0,0.91

and you cannot buy an AVE ticket because they do not have an office ready for long distance trains. They stop but you may have a return ticket, buy it online or just buy on another station.


From Tardienta to Huesca there is a triple rail solution.




and catenary only available for AVE service.

Thus speed is limited to 160 here.

There is one daily train Madrid-Huesca (calling at Tardienta) and another one on Friday and Sunday (non-stop until Zaragoza).
The reason of calling at Tardienta is to "hide" that they must cross there 30 km/h only where they change from triple rail to HSR (having a stop you do not notice anything).


The whole line Tardienta-Huesca was refurbished and electrified in the spring of 2000. I remember crossing there twice and seeing the point where works were on-going. They just upgraded while the night but it was easy to know how many kilometres were upgraded.

First electrical regional service arrived more or less one year later or so, and only for two years because upgrading to triple rail means forbidding electrical trains in regional or freight...
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