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Old January 3rd, 2014, 11:35 PM   #2101
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And Palencia and Murcia.

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Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
I still don't understand how did Logroño manage to get that station without being served by HSR, while other more important stations (in terms of number of trains and passengers), such as Valladolid, León or Valencia must survive with their old stations or just provisory buildings.
Politics.

Logroño, small as it is, is a regional capital, and there has been little investment in railway in La Rioja in the last decades.

Not that La Rioja needs lots of investment in railway, mind you, but if you add that to politicians...

And it was made during the housing bubble years, of course.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 12:12 AM   #2102
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When the Basque Y is built, I think that even a small effort on the Miranda-Zaragoza line could make a Bilbao-Zaragoza service usefull. Just fix the line for 200km/h and build a few new straight segments between Miranda and Calahorra (Calahorra-Zaragoza can be 250km/h as it is already very straight) and you can have a travel time of below 2 hours between Zaragoza and Bilbao, that should be enough to make an hourly train service viable. It won't happen before 2030 but I think it should be a priority over say building a HSR to Santander or upgrading Granada-Almería.

Bilbao-Vitoria-Miranda-Logroño-Tudela-Zaragoza could be a viable train service with extension to the med-coast during weekends and holidays.

Last edited by gincan; January 4th, 2014 at 12:23 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 12:18 AM   #2103
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The only problem with Logroño is that in that area the Ebro corridor (or the axis between the Northern Coast and the Mediterranean coast) has not an unique way, but you have the way through Pamplona and the way through Logroño. It makes investments to need to be distributed between both routes.

The route through Pamplona is more convenient for the Basque Country and France links. The route through Logroño is more convenient for the services to the Northern part of Spain through Miranda, Burgos and further to Galicia.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 12:23 AM   #2104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
When the Basque Y is built, I think that even a small effort on the Miranda-Zaragoza line could make a Bilbao-Zaragoza service usefull. Just fix the line for 200km/h and build a few new straight segments between Miranda and Castejón (Castejón-Zaragoza can be 250km/h as it is already very straight) and you can have a travel time of below 2 hours between Zaragoza and Bilbao, that should be enough to make an hourly train service viable. It won't happen before 2030 but I think it should be a priority over say building a HSR to Santander or upgrading Granada-Almeria.

Bilbao-Vitoria-Miranda-Logroño-Tudela-Zaragoza could be a viable train service with extension to the med-coast during weekends and holidays.
Nowadays they have an assured link in Zaragoza through Valencia indeed.

Alvia Barcelona - Bilbao (and return) links with a Valencia - Zaragoza within only 20 minutes waiting. You can buy a "link ticket" (enlace). Conductor aboard will know that your destination is not the terminus but you have to get another one. He will tell you any incidences about shuttle if they are.
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Old January 4th, 2014, 12:40 AM   #2105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
The only problem with Logroño is that in that area the Ebro corridor (or the axis between the Northern Coast and the Mediterranean coast) has not an unique way, but you have the way through Pamplona and the way through Logroño. It makes investments to need to be distributed between both routes.

The route through Pamplona is more convenient for the Basque Country and France links. The route through Logroño is more convenient for the services to the Northern part of Spain through Miranda, Burgos and further to Galicia.
The global impact of fixing Miranda-Logroño-Castejón (Calahorra) is far greater than renovating the corridor over Pamplona. It should be left for a later date. IMO, it should be THE priority corridor once al current projects are finalised (including Miranda-Burgos).
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Old January 4th, 2014, 12:42 AM   #2106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The global impact of fixing Miranda-Logroño-Castejón (Calahorra) is far greater than renovation the corridor over Pamplona. It should be left for a later date.
Overall I agree with your impression...

However, the question is: who will be faster? The regional government of Navarra or the Spanish government?
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Old January 4th, 2014, 01:07 AM   #2107
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No doubt, of course...


(hint... motorway A-21)
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Old January 4th, 2014, 08:11 PM   #2108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
When the Basque Y is built, I think that even a small effort on the Miranda-Zaragoza line could make a Bilbao-Zaragoza service usefull. Just fix the line for 200km/h and build a few new straight segments between Miranda and Calahorra (Calahorra-Zaragoza can be 250km/h as it is already very straight) and you can have a travel time of below 2 hours between Zaragoza and Bilbao, that should be enough to make an hourly train service viable. It won't happen before 2030 but I think it should be a priority over say building a HSR to Santander or upgrading Granada-Almería.

Bilbao-Vitoria-Miranda-Logroño-Tudela-Zaragoza could be a viable train service with extension to the med-coast during weekends and holidays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
The only problem with Logroño is that in that area the Ebro corridor (or the axis between the Northern Coast and the Mediterranean coast) has not an unique way, but you have the way through Pamplona and the way through Logroño. It makes investments to need to be distributed between both routes.

The route through Pamplona is more convenient for the Basque Country and France links. The route through Logroño is more convenient for the services to the Northern part of Spain through Miranda, Burgos and further to Galicia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The global impact of fixing Miranda-Logroño-Castejón (Calahorra) is far greater than renovating the corridor over Pamplona. It should be left for a later date. IMO, it should be THE priority corridor once al current projects are finalised (including Miranda-Burgos).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Overall I agree with your impression...

However, the question is: who will be faster? The regional government of Navarra or the Spanish government?
It´s not a matter of who´s fast or not, it´s a matter of what can attract more passengers to the trains.

And if we look at which of the two routes (via Logroño or via Pamplona) can attract more passengers, there can be no doubt about it: Pamplona wins, and by far.

The route via Logroño could be upgraded, yes, but I don´t see it as a priority.
I guess that most of the services from the Mediterranean (Barcelona and Valencia) into Bilbao and Hendaye will use the route via Pamplona, since it is faster and serves more populated areas.

However, a few trains will be left via Logroño, since although La Rioja is a less populated región than Navarre, the gains in travel time will attract a number of new passengers too.

The other transversal services, which will use the HSL between Burgos and Valladolid or Leon, attracting a number of extra new passengers too, shouldn´t be forgotten, either: Alvia Barcelona-Gijon, Alvia Barcelona-Corunna/Vigo, Alvia Barcelona-Ponferrada (seasonal), Alvia Barcelona-Valladolid (which will be extended to Salamanca once the electrification of the Medina del Campo-Salamanca line is completed).
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Old January 5th, 2014, 12:08 AM   #2109
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Renfe 470 EMU and class 130 EMU in Toral de los Vados and Ponferrada (León).
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Old January 5th, 2014, 12:39 AM   #2110
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Today from Zaragoza to Miranda is faster via Logroño rather than Pamplona. The advantage of Pamplona is that they do not have to turn back the train in Miranda to continue and there is more population.

But trains Bilbao-Barcelona go via Logroño...


In the future, with the Basque Y from Vitoria time would be the same more or less...
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Old January 5th, 2014, 01:02 AM   #2111
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Quote:
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Today from Zaragoza to Miranda is faster via Logroño rather than Pamplona.
Only slightly via Logroño, but serving half the population than via Pamplona.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
The advantage of Pamplona is that they do not have to turn back the train in Miranda to continue and there is more population.
They don´t have to do it nowadays. Except the Alvia for Valladolid (the former Talgo did skip Miranda though).

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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
But trains Bilbao-Barcelona go via Logroño...
Just because there is no way they´re going to go via Vitoria, they´d lose time in that case, since they´d have to reverse at Miranda too.
But with the Basque Y, they won´t have to do that, they´ll just skip Vitoria and run straight into Pamplona from Bilbao. Others (fewer) will serve Vitoria and then Miranda and Logroño.

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In the future, with the Basque Y from Vitoria time would be the same more or less...
But not the same population...
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Old January 5th, 2014, 03:41 PM   #2112
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The problem as I see it with going over Pamplona is that you add 80 km for all trains going westwards, that is an additional 30 minutes of travel time assuming the railroad is built for 220-250km/h. Since you already will be able to reach Pamplona from both the Basque county after the Basque Y is built and Catalonia/Meseta rather fast when the railroad is upgraded to 250km/h up to Castejón, it is of less importance to spend on upgrading the rest.

On the other hand, if the railway between Castejón and Miranda was built to only 200km/h you would be able to reach Asturias in under 6 hours from Barcelona and Valladolid/Salamanca/Galica could be reached without going through Madrid, which will have it's own capacity problem once the current construction projects are finished. Madrid-Valladolid will be the most saturated railway in Spain when the whole of northern Spain can be reached within 3 hours from Madrid.

I am of the opinion that within 20 to 30 years, the working class and lower/medium middle class will be completely priced out of air travel due to much higher travel costs, only train and buss will remain a resonable travel option, however road maintenance will be nothing like we are used to today when asphalt will be to expensive for roads so even a majority of the people driving today will be forced to switch to trains. Long distance train travel will again be the main mode of transport, so it makes a lot of sense to ensure it is as fast as resonably possible.

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Old January 5th, 2014, 04:09 PM   #2113
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You are predicting an end to cheap oil. I'm very sceptical of that claim particularly on 20-30 year time scale. It's difficult to predict the future, but my best guess is that air travel won't be significantly more expensive than now.
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Old January 5th, 2014, 04:22 PM   #2114
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Well, this is not the thread to discuss the future of oil production and consumption, but all things considered, I'm convinced we will see much higher prices the coming decades, 4-500$ /barrel is totally within reason, even assuming full production of shale oil and a massive engineered civil war in the middle east to contain their domestic consumption. I'm just waiting for the Arabian peninsual to burst into flames in a civil war enginered by the western powers to stop their domestic consumption to grow, the syrian civil war is nothin compared to what is coming.

Call me a tin foil hat but time will tell...
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Old January 5th, 2014, 04:27 PM   #2115
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Ok, let's just agree to disagree. Not really a right place for a lengthy discussion of this kind.
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Old January 5th, 2014, 05:12 PM   #2116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The problem as I see it with going over Pamplona is that you add 80 km for all trains going westwards, that is an additional 30 minutes of travel time assuming the railroad is built for 220-250km/h. Since you already will be able to reach Pamplona from both the Basque county after the Basque Y is built and Catalonia/Meseta rather fast when the railroad is upgraded to 250km/h up to Castejón, it is of less importance to spend on upgrading the rest.
I don´t get you here, sorry, which line do you "asume is built for 220-250 km/h" exactly, and which is "of less importance to upgrade the rest" (sorry).

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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
On the other hand, if the railway between Castejón and Miranda was built to only 200km/h you would be able to reach Asturias in under 6 hours from Barcelona and Valladolid/Salamanca/Galica could be reached without going through Madrid, which will have it's own capacity problem once the current construction projects are finished. Madrid-Valladolid will be the most saturated railway in Spain when the whole of northern Spain can be reached within 3 hours from Madrid.
I´m not sure wether it will be Madrid-Valladolid or Barcelona-Camp de Tarragona...
What is clear is that these two will be the most charged, though.

Remember that the latter still has to see all the traffic from Valencia switch to the HSL, and the number of trains to/from Valencia and beyond will certainly increase (now there´s at least 16 per day/direction), plus the increase of trains from Miranda/Vitoria and beyond (Basque Country/Valladolid/Salamanca/Gijon/Ponferrada/Galicia), the number of which will certainly increase, too.
Outside of the sector Atocha-Torrejón de Velasco Junction, whose situation is provisory, I´m not sure wether the most charged section of HSL will be one or the other.

Because aside from these trains, you´d have to add the potential TGVs from France and maybe Switzerland or even beyond that could go beyond Camp de Tarragona, be it towards Zaragoza or towards Valencia.
And also the diametral trains, since it is planned to link the Madrid-Valladolid HSL to the Madrid-Barcelona HSL in future years (since the shortest way between Barcelona and NW Spain (Galicia, Gijon, Valladolid-Salamanca) is actually via Madrid, albeit the trains via Miranda will be maintained due to the passengers that travel to/from the intermediate stops on that route.
Anyway, both will be busy, that´s sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
I am of the opinion that within 20 to 30 years, the working class and lower/medium middle class will be completely priced out of air travel due to much higher travel costs, only train and buss will remain a resonable travel option, however road maintenance will be nothing like we are used to today when asphalt will be to expensive for roads so even a majority of the people driving today will be forced to switch to trains. Long distance train travel will again be the main mode of transport, so it makes a lot of sense to ensure it is as fast as resonably possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
You are predicting an end to cheap oil. I'm very sceptical of that claim particularly on 20-30 year time scale. It's difficult to predict the future, but my best guess is that air travel won't be significantly more expensive than now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Well, this is not the thread to discuss the future of oil production and consumption, but all things considered, I'm convinced we will see much higher prices the coming decades, 4-500$ /barrel is totally within reason, even assuming full production of shale oil and a massive engineered civil war in the middle east to contain their domestic consumption. I'm just waiting for the Arabian peninsual to burst into flames in a civil war enginered by the western powers to stop their domestic consumption to grow, the syrian civil war is nothin compared to what is coming.

Call me a tin foil hat but time will tell...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Ok, let's just agree to disagree. Not really a right place for a lengthy discussion of this kind.
But an interesting off-topic indeed.
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Old January 5th, 2014, 07:29 PM   #2117
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Barcelona-Sagrera station (under construction).

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Old January 7th, 2014, 06:27 PM   #2118
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Vigo-Urzáiz station (under reconstruction).

Compilation of images of 2013:

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Old January 7th, 2014, 11:10 PM   #2119
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News:

Planning has started to upgrade the Vicálvaro freight terminal, in Madrid.
That will include the quadruple-tracking of the section between Fuente de la Mora (current terminus of C10 Cercanías Renfe services from Villalba via Príncipe Pío, Atocha and Recoletos)-O´Donnell (to be renamed and finally opened for passengers), since commuter rail will be expanded soon to a high-frequency service between Fuente de la Mora and San Fernando (now it´s only a few services Madrid Chamartín-Guadalajara during peak hours).

=============================================================================================

Rumour:

Looks like commuter services (Cercanías Renfe) or similar might be created in the Tarragona and Girona provinces.
Some inner source says by April 2014.
More as soon as I get some more info.
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Old January 8th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #2120
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Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.

Electrification works between Medina del Campo and Salamanca, poles already standing.

On the picture, a class 334 loco pulling the historical train "El tren de los 80" ("the train of the 80s"), with prototype loco 269.604 and 3 coaches.

Photo by (I suppose) melco at www.tranvia.org

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