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Old January 17th, 2014, 05:17 PM   #2141
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Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerda/Latour-de-Carol line.
Manlleu station.


The herbicide train, pulled by two class 310 diesel locos (310.022 and 310.032):

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Old January 18th, 2014, 01:02 AM   #2142
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Alvia Vigo - Barcelona arriving Ponferrada station. November 2013.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 03:34 AM   #2143
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Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerda/Latour-de-Carol line.

Class 447 EMUs between Torelló and Borgonyà stations:

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Old January 21st, 2014, 03:37 AM   #2144
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Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerda/Latour-de-Carol line.

Class 447 EMUs between Manlleu and Torelló stations:

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Old January 21st, 2014, 03:40 AM   #2145
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Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerda/Latour-de-Carol line.

Class 447 EMU and loco 253.065, at Vic-Mercaderies:

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Old January 21st, 2014, 03:43 AM   #2146
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Barcelona-Vic-Ripoll-Puigcerda/Latour-de-Carol line.

Class 253 loco with a freight train, between Vic and Balenyà-Tona-Seva stations:

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Old January 22nd, 2014, 09:23 PM   #2147
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Murcia-Lorca-Águilas line.
Lorca-Sutullena station.


This station is being reconstructed after being severely damaged by the 2011 earthquake that hit Lorca:

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Pictures from January 5, 2014:











Pictures from January 21, 2014:







The train logo on the left is upside down. They had one job...

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Old January 26th, 2014, 12:34 AM   #2148
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Torralba-Soria line.
Soria station.

Some trains:

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Originally Posted by riveratorres View Post
Loco 333.383 of Acciona and a class 594 DMU:





DMU 594.009:

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Old January 26th, 2014, 12:38 AM   #2149
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Madrid-Guadalajara-Torralba-Calatayud-Zaragoza classic line.
Sigüenza station.

Some trains:

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DMU 594.105:





DMU 599.049:

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Old January 26th, 2014, 12:41 AM   #2150
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Torralba-Soria line.
Tardelcuende station.

Some trains:

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DMU 594.009:





DMU 599.005:

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Old January 26th, 2014, 11:04 PM   #2151
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Discussion coming from an off-topic generated at the SPAIN | High Speed Railway thread:

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Although I think that this problem is a result of a bit too optimistic approach in which everything is made to retain both gauges which is clearly unfeasible. Choosing UIC gauge to HS rail was a political issue but now it is clear that Spain for growth needs UIC but freight connections. If this problem would be spotted soon enough HS lanes with insufficient traffic could be built as mixed use as in Italy Alta Velocita / Alta Capacita. Adding to that some other projects it was possible to achieve not only HS UIC gauge but also vast parts of Spain would be reachable by UIC freight trains.
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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
As well, the Spanish government knows it is necessary to open many different new lines before the elections in mid-2015, and the lack of money for all of them forces him to look for "innovative" solutions of saving money and keeping openings going on. Furthermore, the European funds for some of those lines have some sort of expiration date, so, at the end of the day, opening a new line with UIC gauge is the main priority.

In the short term those single tracks sections won't be a problems as traffic would be sort of low as the whole corridors won't be finished. For the UIC gauge network for freght trains, in some cases mixed used lines are planned, either new ones (Basque Y) or updating of existing ones through third rail (Mediterranean Corridor from Vandellós (Tarragona) to Valencia). That's true, in the future more and more mixed used lines will be opened, but as well because of the updating of the conventional network. The UIC migration is planned for the whole Iberian network in the medium-long term.
Two good posts.

The Ministry seems to finally have realised that they have to come to terms with the duality of gauges, and that they have to really change the gauge of the Iberian-gauge network, and maybe parts of the metric-gauge network too (albeit later, since all of this is not going to be free of charge, as you can imagine...).

They even seem to have a deadline for the changing of gauge in some freight axis, which of course will also involve passenger traffic (2016 for Barcelona-Tarragona-Cartagena, 2018 for Hendaye/Irun-Fuentes de Oñoro/Vilar Formoso, and 2024 for Tarragona-Zaragoza-Madrid-Manzanares-Puertollano-Merida-Badajoz/Elvas. All these dates can of course not be respected, it will all depend on the budget).

Works seem to have started between Valencia and Castellon, and they are underway between Vandellos and Vila-seca, and we´re all awaiting the start of Works between Castellbisbal (current southern end of the freight standard gauge) and Vila-seca (just next to Tarragona), since this will allow the Martorell Seat Factory and the BASF and Bayer Tarragona chemical factories (as well as the connection with the Tarragona port, another of the main ports in Spain) to start exporting through rail.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 12:59 AM   #2152
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The Ministry seems to finally have realised that they have to come to terms with the duality of gauges, and that they have to really change the gauge of the Iberian-gauge network, and maybe parts of the metric-gauge network too (albeit later, since all of this is not going to be free of charge, as you can imagine...).
It's good that finally this problem was spotted but sadly that so late. It is also surprising that at some point I was feeling that some opposition to UIC gauge was in force as new sections of HS lines started to be opening with Iberian gauge with convertible sleepers. Of course such move saved from some gauge changing installations but eventually re-gauging of those tracks at later stage will also cost some money. But the most striking is fact that there weren't any nationwide plans for gauge conversion so at the same time two underused doubling lines with different gauges were build / modernised which hardly could be cost effective. While with proper plan gauge conversion could be done quicker and on cheaper basis and everyone who played Spanish train set in Open TTD knows that this is manageable. So we will wait and see if and when freight corridors will be established. Has someone any estimates on when first UIC freight train will reach Ford plant in Valencia?
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Old January 27th, 2014, 02:02 AM   #2153
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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
It's good that finally this problem was spotted but sadly that so late.
Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
It is also surprising that at some point I was feeling that some opposition to UIC gauge was in force as new sections of HS lines started to be opening with Iberian gauge with convertible sleepers.
Nah, it was never that case, just practical reasons for the exploitation of the network.
Otherwise, those sleepers wouldn´t have been convertible but mono-gauge in Iberian.

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Of course such move saved from some gauge changing installations but eventually re-gauging of those tracks at later stage will also cost some money.
Yes, but that was the best option. Or the least bad, put it that way.

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But the most striking is fact that there weren't any nationwide plans for gauge conversion so at the same time two underused doubling lines with different gauges were build / modernised which hardly could be cost effective.
True.

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
While with proper plan gauge conversion could be done quicker and on cheaper basis and everyone who played Spanish train set in Open TTD knows that this is manageable.
We´re told that it´s not that easy, since very often there´s the coincidence of freight with long distance and commuter rail traffic.
I wonder how true is that, and if it was done by long stretches all in one go it would mean significant loss of passengers or the passengers would easily come back (the commuters in particular).

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So we will wait and see if and when freight corridors will be established. Has someone any estimates on when first UIC freight train will reach Ford plant in Valencia?
2015, they say. Works are underway between Vandellos and Vila-seca (between Tarragona and Valencia). Preliminary works have just started between Puçol and Moncofa (between Valencia and Castellon). Same goes for the section between Valencia-Fuente de San Luis and Valencia-Sant Isidre.

As for the most crucial section (Castellbisbal-Tarragona-Vila-seca), they haven´t touched a pebble yet.

The problem in that section is that it is commuter rail territory, so big disruptions will be on the menu... and there is an additional trouble: in the most crucial of this crucial sector (between Castellbisbal and Martorell), there´s a tunnel which is in very bad state.

This tunnel alone can delay the works by itself, since it really is in very bad state, and the solution for that tunnel isn´t clear yet since the área is geologically complicated, and it is also planned to reopen an old abandoned parallel single-track tunnel to relieve the congestion (which couldn´t be done in no time since that compulsory implies the rebuilding of an old demolished viaduct over river Llobregat and the reworking of all the points at Martorell station, which is one of the main commuter rail termini), but we have no data about what they have in mind.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 06:39 AM   #2154
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Ciudad Real-Puertollano-Almorchón-Mérida-Badajoz/Elvas line. and Córdoba-Almorchón line.
Almorchón station.

This station used to be a more important junction than it is now, since the Córdoba-Almorchón line saw its passenger service cut in the 1970s.

The village of Almorchón originated mostly as a railwaymen town.

Picture taken on December 2013.

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Old January 27th, 2014, 08:27 AM   #2155
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Medina del Campo-Zamora-Ourense-Santiago de Compostela-Corunna line.
Monte La Reina station.

It´s located right under the new HSL under construction.

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Old January 27th, 2014, 08:46 AM   #2156
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Santiago-Vigo line.

River Ulla viaduct.

SC.sidon wasn´t very lucky this time, since he got a classic Northern Spain rainy, foggy day while visiting the viaduct.
He was courageous enough to take some pics, he must have ended up soaked, poor him.



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Old January 27th, 2014, 03:08 PM   #2157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Nah, it was never that case, just practical reasons for the exploitation of the network.
Otherwise, those sleepers wouldn´t have been convertible but mono-gauge in Iberian.
To be clear we must acknowledge that Spain uses three types of sleepers.
1. First are mono gauge both Iberian or UIC.
2. Gauge convertible allowing to use Iberian or UIC but not both.
3. Triple rail for both gauges.
Watching many Spain cab views (well mostly back views) I’ve spotted that ATM during modernisations on Iberian network are inserted only gauge convertible sleepers which watching its design should cost the same as mono gauge. Mono gauge sleepers with Iberian gauge are sometimes used but frankly i think that they are reused old sleepers taken from other lines. Thanks to this migration for UIC gauge should be easy but it doesn't allow for a stopgap with three rails. The biggest example is Mediterranean corridor which on Valencia - Tarragona (according to PDF which circulated the forum half year or so) from Valencia to Castellon should be dual gauge and further UIC gauge. Achieving this may be a problem because gauge convertible sleepers were laid not triple rail and realising this project will also discontinue Iberian gauge on important corridor.


Quote:
We´re told that it´s not that easy, since very often there´s the coincidence of freight with long distance and commuter rail traffic.
I wonder how true is that, and if it was done by long stretches all in one go it would mean significant loss of passengers or the passengers would easily come back (the commuters in particular).
I don't think that this is a crucial problem. Commuter traffic mostly covers short stretches of lines thus don't affect as much long distance trains (at least in less developed areas). The other fact is that major towns have so big commuter traffic that retaining there isolated Iberian gauge network is feasible option.

Regarding freight traffic it is more complicated as train can cover the same distance as long distance HS train while speed difference is high. But there are many examples of HS lines build as multipurpose. Basically every German HS line (apart from Frankfurt - Koeln) allow up to 1 freight train per hour during a day and unrestricted use during night. It only requires smoother inclines and declines of line as well as some additional stations. It is problematic but may be effective on less used HS lines. Although I suppose that before financial crisis everyone in Spain thought that there is enough money for separate lines for every traffic type.

And as we are in this subject do anybody know if on conventional line Santiago - Ourense - Requejo - Zamora - Medina del campo is freight traffic which couldn't be routed using other Iberian gauge lines. Or more precisely is there any reason why after building there new HS UIC line conventional Iberian gauge line will be still needed?


Quote:
2015, they say. Works are underway between Vandellos and Vila-seca (between Tarragona and Valencia). Preliminary works have just started between Puçol and Moncofa (between Valencia and Castellon). Same goes for the section between Valencia-Fuente de San Luis and Valencia-Sant Isidre.
As for the most crucial section (Castellbisbal-Tarragona-Vila-seca), they haven´t touched a pebble yet.
The problem in that section is that it is commuter rail territory, so big disruptions will be on the menu... and there is an additional trouble: in the most crucial of this crucial sector (between Castellbisbal and Martorell), there´s a tunnel which is in very bad state.
This tunnel alone can delay the works by itself, since it really is in very bad state, and the solution for that tunnel isn´t clear yet since the área is geologically complicated, and it is also planned to reopen an old abandoned parallel single-track tunnel to relieve the congestion (which couldn´t be done in no time since that compulsory implies the rebuilding of an old demolished viaduct over river Llobregat and the reworking of all the points at Martorell station, which is one of the main commuter rail termini), but we have no data about what they have in mind.
So do I understand it right - Initially ADIF planned to build completely new UIC line from Barcelona through Martorell to Camp de Tarragona from where new double tracks should parallel the existing Iberian gauge line to Valencia. As I've mentioned earlier section Valencia - Taragona was slashed and replaced by triple tracks and UIC section to Tarragona. But As You write it looks that also this new line from Tarragona to Barcelona was slashed and replaced by re-gauging of conventional line in this direction?

And one question - can anybody update this maps of Spain and post them here as those maps are useful while initial author lost some vigor to update them although allows to change them and publish on rather open basis.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 09:49 PM   #2158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
To be clear we must acknowledge that Spain uses three types of sleepers.
1. First are mono gauge both Iberian or UIC.
2. Gauge convertible allowing to use Iberian or UIC but not both.
3. Triple rail for both gauges.
Watching many Spain cab views (well mostly back views) I’ve spotted that ATM during modernisations on Iberian network are inserted only gauge convertible sleepers which watching its design should cost the same as mono gauge. Mono gauge sleepers with Iberian gauge are sometimes used but frankly i think that they are reused old sleepers taken from other lines.
Overall, yes, correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Thanks to this migration for UIC gauge should be easy but it doesn't allow for a stopgap with three rails.
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
The biggest example is Mediterranean corridor which on Valencia - Tarragona (according to PDF which circulated the forum half year or so) from Valencia to Castellon should be dual gauge and further UIC gauge.
Dual gauge on both tracks between Castellon and Sagunt, and UIC gauge on one track and dual gauge on the other between Sagunt and Castellon.
That´s because thay want to keep Iberian gauge for the access to the ports of Castellon and Sagunt, and also because Sagunt is the junction for the Zaragoza-Teruel-Sagunt line.

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Achieving this may be a problem because gauge convertible sleepers were laid not triple rail and realising this project will also discontinue Iberian gauge on important corridor.
That´s assumed. Works are about to start between Puçol station (collateral to Sagunt station on the way to Valencia), and Moncofa station (between Sagunt and Castellon). Premilinary works have already started.

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
I don't think that this is a crucial problem. Commuter traffic mostly covers short stretches of lines thus don't affect as much long distance trains (at least in less developed areas). The other fact is that major towns have so big commuter traffic that retaining there isolated Iberian gauge network is feasible option.
One particular thing of Spain is that in the areas with a commuter rail service, that service tends to serve a high density area, and usually shares services with regional rail, long distance rail and freight. Only a few lines are exclusive for commuter services, or have dedicated commuter rail tracks. In some cases, commuter rail is underdeveloped for various reasons, depending on the particular case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Regarding freight traffic it is more complicated as train can cover the same distance as long distance HS train while speed difference is high. But there are many examples of HS lines build as multipurpose. Basically every German HS line (apart from Frankfurt - Koeln) allow up to 1 freight train per hour during a day and unrestricted use during night. It only requires smoother inclines and declines of line as well as some additional stations. It is problematic but may be effective on less used HS lines.
On some lines that´s been foreseseen, such as Seville-Cadiz, Corunna-Santiago de Compostela-Vigo, or Crevillente (Alicante)-Murcia, but that´s because they´re actually upgraded classic lines.

Keep in mind that gradients in Spain are no small feat: the country is the most mountainous in Europe after Switzerland, so you have to keep a proportion between that and travel time (and costs in mountainous areas!, a mixed traffic HSL will always be more expensive due to the low gradients required).

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Although I suppose that before financial crisis everyone in Spain thought that there is enough money for separate lines for every traffic type.
I could go on for quite a bit about this, but let´s say that politicians have also their part into it. But the paragraph immediately above this one should also be an answer for this, geography counts very much in Spain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
And as we are in this subject do anybody know if on conventional line Santiago - Ourense - Requejo - Zamora - Medina del campo is freight traffic which couldn't be routed using other Iberian gauge lines. Or more precisely is there any reason why after building there new HS UIC line conventional Iberian gauge line will be still needed?
Good question. We´ll see what they make of the classic line there, since there is one alternative route (alternative route that is just as difficult as the classic line if not worse, although it is electrified -actually it is electrfied because its profile is much worse in places), but be sure, though, that no freight will be allowed on that stretch of the HSL under construction. Theoretically, the classic line Medina del Campo-Zamora-Ourense is part of the European network for freight. We´ll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
So do I understand it right - Initially ADIF planned to build completely new UIC line from Barcelona through Martorell to Camp de Tarragona from where new double tracks should parallel the existing Iberian gauge line to Valencia.
Not between Martorell and Camp de Tarragona, if what you mean is a new passenger-only HSL (there already is a HSL between Martorell and Camp de Tarragona).

There was talk about that, on the press in particular, for freight, but no serious plans came out of that. Planning for freight started out as an upgrade of the current classic line, and it sticks to that. The only possible new alternative (which has been considered and still is, but no decision has been made yet) could be a later reopening of a classic line closed in 1990 to liberate the line between Sant Vicenç de Calders and Vila-seca, which crosses large urban areas and potentially could see a new commuter rail service.

As for Camp de Tarragona-Valencia... planning didn´t even start before the crisis, exception made of the Valencia-Castellon HSL (exclusive for passengers, and thought to avoid the merger with freight, regional, and commuter rail between Valencia and Castellon), which almost got started.

The classic line between Castellon and Tarragona is slowly being upgraded since the 1990s, and the section between Vandellos and Vila-seca is still being built (unfinished for the last twenty years -here in Tarragona we´re quite bitter for that), but now they´ve given it the final push, so it is advancing really fast, and it now includes a new passenger-only link from Vila-seca for Camp de Tarragona.

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
As I've mentioned earlier section Valencia - Taragona was slashed and replaced by triple tracks and UIC section to Tarragona.
No, it was never slashed, since it was never fully considered in official stages, exception made of Valencia-Castellon, which got preliminary works almost started. I still don´t discard the construction of Valencia-Castellon in a later, better moment.

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
But As You write it looks that also this new line from Tarragona to Barcelona was slashed and replaced by re-gauging of conventional line in this direction?
That´s never been considered officially, just campaigned for from the press and certain political sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
And one question - can anybody update this maps of Spain and post them here as those maps are useful while initial author lost some vigor to update them although allows to change them and publish on rather open basis.
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...-peninsula.gif
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...adrid-area.gif
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...elona-area.gif
I´m afraid something´s going on with Thorsten Büker and Boris Chomenko, since years ago I sent them some emails and was answered, I had my hopes high, but finally no updates were made. Note that no other updates to any country/area map have been made in two years, either.
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Last edited by 437.001; January 27th, 2014 at 10:00 PM.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 10:08 PM   #2159
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Good question. We´ll see what they make of the classic line there, since there is one alternative route (alternative route that is just as difficult as the classic line if not worse, although it is electrified -actually it is electrfied because its profile is much worse in places), but be sure, though, that no freight will be allowed on that stretch of the HSL under construction. Theoretically, the classic line Medina del Campo-Zamora-Ourense is part of the European network for freight. We´ll see.
Which route do you mean?

Some places will gain a lot from this new line (Zamora, for example), but there doesn't seem to be any towns which will lose traffic as is usually the case. I checked and the few existing trains only stop twice between Zamora and Ourense and there are supposed to be HS station in at least one of them. If that is so the old line between those two cities could as well be turned into freight only line or abandoned altogether if no one needs it for freight.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 10:25 PM   #2160
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Which route do you mean?
Monforte de Lemos-Ponferrada-Astorga-Leon.

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Some places will gain a lot from this new line (Zamora, for example), but there doesn't seem to be any towns which will lose traffic as is usually the case.
Toro, but Toro can´t be considered a city anymore, nowadays.

I´m not sure about Puebla de Sanabria. Bragança (Portugal) is not that far.

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I checked and the few existing trains only stop twice between Zamora and Ourense and there are supposed to be HS station in at least one of them. If that is so the old line between those two cities could as well be turned into freight only line or abandoned altogether if no one needs it for freight.
I´m not sure about what they will do with it. Freight is a quite possible option, but I wouldn´t discard passengers, particularly if they liberalize and private operators enter the game.
It would be a pity if they closed it, it is one of Spain´s best scenic routes, and has some of the loveliest stations.
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