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Old January 27th, 2014, 11:59 PM   #2161
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Keep in mind that gradients in Spain are no small feat: the country is the most mountainous in Europe after Switzerland, so you have to keep a proportion between that and travel time (and costs in mountainous areas!, a mixed traffic HSL will always be more expensive due to the low gradients required).
I know that first line from Madrid to Seville was build in much according to French standards but later lines should be build according to HS TSI standards so they should feature more conventional grades (enforced by Germany). So on such line freight traffic should be possible although may reduce maximum length, weight and in some cases may require double headed traction. If Barcelona - Figueres can be mixed traffic so other less used HS lines could be used as such.


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Iīm afraid somethingīs going on with Thorsten Büker and Boris Chomenko, since years ago I sent them some emails and was answered, I had my hopes high, but finally no updates were made. Note that no other updates to any country/area map have been made in two years, either.
Yes I know that updates stopped but it was to be expected that sooner or later their private time for such activities will end. The problem is other as in most countries rail network was well developed and only minor changes occurs while in Spain it is mad dash for new lines making this map outdated. I was trying to "home made" update it using paint but my knowledge of Spain network and its recent development is to week to correctly mark it.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 12:39 AM   #2162
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Barcelona-Figueres..... on the classic line!
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Old January 28th, 2014, 01:14 AM   #2163
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Barcelona-Figueres..... on the classic line!
You won't get UIC gauge freight train to Barcelona through classic line.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 01:40 AM   #2164
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Sonner or later, we will.

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I know that first line from Madrid to Seville was build in much according to French standards but later lines should be build according to HS TSI standards so they should feature more conventional grades (enforced by Germany).
I donīt think Germany/DB is particularly an ideal example to Spain as railways are concerned.

Each country has its own path. In many ways I feel much closer to the French railways, since geographically, France and Spain share many more things than Spain and Germany do.

Anyway, in Spain weīre getting to the point at which weīve almost built the core HSR network. After the Galicia HSL is finished, only the sections Burgos-Vitoria and the rest of Madrid-Lisbon will be needed (and in the case of Madrid-Lisbon, the most crucial part of it depends on Portugal).

Weīll take a rest after the next set of HSR inaugurations, to probably focus much more on commuter rail upgrades, which are much needed, and of course, on the change of gauge of the classic network, which seemingly has finally sank in the little brains of our politicians (Iberian to UIC but probably also metric to UIC, in the case of the Northern Spain coastal corridor from Bilbao to Ferrol).

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So on such line freight traffic should be possible although may reduce maximum length, weight and in some cases may require double headed traction. If Barcelona - Figueres can be mixed traffic so other less used HS lines could be used as such.
Barcelona-Figueres can see mixed traffic just because it will have many less trains than most of the other HSLs in Spain... until international passenger HSR service develops. Once that happens, the classic line will need to be finally converted.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 01:50 AM   #2165
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Quote:
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I know that first line from Madrid to Seville was build in much according to French standards but later lines should be build according to HS TSI standards so they should feature more conventional grades (enforced by Germany). So on such line freight traffic should be possible although may reduce maximum length, weight and in some cases may require double headed traction. If Barcelona - Figueres can be mixed traffic so other less used HS lines could be used as such.
Not really. Most of the infrastructure of the first Spanish high speed line is sort of German based, while rolling stock is French. But the general planning of the infrastructure is much closer to the French model of exclusive lines, than to the German mixed lines. Consider the distribution of population and distances in Spain, and the German model wouldn't work out good enough for getting competitive travel times.

Originally the line was planned as a new access to Andalusia from Castille, as the classic line through the Despeņaperros pass was saturated. So, it was designed for conventional and mixed traffic. Besides, from Parla to Ciudad Real it takes as base the former Madrid-Ciudad Real line, updating it for higher speed. However, at some point they decided to set the UIC gauge and to transform it into a high speed line. But, technically, it has standard maximum inclines of 12,5 ‰, so, mixed traffic would be possible.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 02:04 AM   #2166
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But not desirable.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 02:07 AM   #2167
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Sure, and even not necessary at all by now.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 02:11 AM   #2168
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Not desirable because it's not necessary nowadays.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 02:14 AM   #2169
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Will it ever?
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Old January 28th, 2014, 02:26 AM   #2170
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Maybe it will when our politicians realize the potential of the port of Algeciras.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 02:58 AM   #2171
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With the main line through Despeņaperros largely devoid of trains, and many more trains to come via the new extensions of HSLs (think of the TR3), I doubt it.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 03:06 AM   #2172
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The point would be, how complicated is to migrate all the corridor up to Algeciras?A lot. It is probably the best located port of the country, but at the same time, probably it will be the last one in getting UIC access.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 03:33 AM   #2173
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The point would be, how complicated is to migrate all the corridor up to Algeciras?A lot.
No, not a lot. Itīs only about expanding the UIC gauge through the country.

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It is probably the best located port of the country, but at the same time, probably it will be the last one in getting UIC access.
I doubt that Algeciras gets the UIC gauge after Cadiz, Huelva, Vigo or Ferrol do.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 09:59 AM   #2174
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But for an European meeting just after entrance in EU, they wouldn't consider full HSL and standard gauge.

First project was a hsl stretch over an Iberian gauge
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Old January 28th, 2014, 10:28 AM   #2175
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With all the UIC gauges along the Mediterranean, it should be possible to run a TGV or an AVE from Paris to Valencia and Alacant.

Is there a change we such runnings?
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Old January 28th, 2014, 10:55 AM   #2176
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If the catenary accepts them, it should.
not only the gauge but also the catenary. Renfe and SNCF trains are ready for Spanish HSL, French HSL and French classic line (because last kilometres to stations are over classic lines and after Perpignan there is only HSL).

No homologation yet on Spanish classic line.
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Old January 28th, 2014, 05:07 PM   #2177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
But for an European meeting just after entrance in EU, they wouldn't consider full HSL and standard gauge.

First project was a hsl stretch over an Iberian gauge
Who cares? Iīm not going to cry eternally over whatever mistakes were done in the past.
The deed is done, and thereīs no going back, we donīt have time machines yet...
Look to where you have arrived, not to where you have come from.

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With all the UIC gauges along the Mediterranean, it should be possible to run a TGV or an AVE from Paris to Valencia and Alacant.
That would be quite long and not very feasible outside summer peaks, the way things are these days.
And the trains should be homologated to run on the classic lines and HSLs of both Spain and France.
Iīd rather wait at least until the sections Vandellos-Camp de Tarragona and Montpellier-Nimes are open.
With the current travel times, thatīs still too long.

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Is there a change we such runnings?
I beg your pardon?
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Old January 28th, 2014, 05:16 PM   #2178
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So OK, Valencia - Barcelona classic line will be mostly converted into UIC Gauge with some dual gauge sections but what with electric catenaries. ATM line is electrified at 3 kV DC so will it remain after regauging or 25 kV 50 Hz will be used there?

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Originally Posted by 473.001
I donīt think Germany/DB is particularly an ideal example to Spain as railways are concerned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar
Consider the distribution of population and distances in Spain, and the German model wouldn't work out good enough for getting competitive travel times.
I wasn't talking about which model (French or German) should Spain follow because it is clear that country is big enough and population distribution is such that only French model can give satisfactory results. Although looking at results I would rather say that Spain found its own way and it should be called "Spanish model" which is merger of fast lines common in France with straight connection in city centers (common in Germany). Both Madrid and Barcelona have underground HSL connections not circular lines like Paris. Zaragozza has detour tracks but also connection to city centre where AVE stop next to Iberian gauge trains not like Lyon with its centre and airport stations. In the same time travel speed between cities is much bigger than in Germany - so Spain has its own HS model.

But getting back to subject TSI standards for HS lines were set at more conservative parameters which was pushed by Germans. So basically every new HS line can't reply grade parameters of first TGV line thus freight traffic should be possible.

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Old January 28th, 2014, 05:26 PM   #2179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
So OK, Valencia - Barcelona classic line will be mostly converted into UIC Gauge with some dual gauge sections but what with electric catenaries. ATM line is electrified at 3 kV DC so will it remain after regauging or 25 kV 50 Hz will be used there?

Not Valencia-Barcelona but Valencia-Tarragona central (somewhere in Reus Airport)

There is a new line to avoid L'Hospitalet, Cambrils, Salou, more or less near the A-7. From Tarragona-central it will have a junction with the Madrid-Figueres line so it will use current HSL to arrive to Barcelona
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Old January 28th, 2014, 05:59 PM   #2180
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So OK, Valencia - Barcelona classic line will be mostly converted into UIC Gauge with some dual gauge sections but what with electric catenaries. ATM line is electrified at 3 kV DC so will it remain after regauging or 25 kV 50 Hz will be used there?
25kV between Camp de Tarragona and Vila-seca (connections to classic line not included).
From Vila-seca to Valencia it will be 3kV.

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
I wasn't talking about which model (French or German) should Spain follow because it is clear that country is big enough and population distribution is such that only French model can give satisfactory results. Although looking at results I would rather say that Spain found its own way and it should be called "Spanish model" which is merger of fast lines common in France with straight connection in city centers (common in Germany). Both Madrid and Barcelona have underground HSL connections not circular lines like Paris. Zaragozza has detour tracks but also connection to city centre where AVE stop next to Iberian gauge trains not like Lyon with its centre and airport stations. In the same time travel speed between cities is much bigger than in Germany - so Spain has its own HS model.
Compared to France, I think we can also say that the difference of gauge has played its role, although this will decrease, then stop in years to come, as the classic network will progressively be converted to standard gauge (and probably important parts of the metric gauge network too).

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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
But getting back to subject TSI standards for HS lines were set at more conservative parameters which was pushed by Germans. So basically every new HS line can't reply grade parameters of first TGV line thus freight traffic should be possible.
Thatīs a bit odd, since it may satisfy German parameters, but not necessarily the ones of countries that are less geographically gifted. But Iīd rather not comment much political decisions, since they can be changed and they arenīt always made with "the big picture" in mind, but rather more immediate and not always wide-minded purposes (and obviously this applies to all the politicians in every country).

And then again, if you can use classic lines for freight, why bother with every HSL to be made for mixed traffic? That may suit the particular case... or not. It isnīt a matter of duplicating every line with a HSL, but it isnīt the case with every line, sometimes itīs good to have traffics separated and a classic line with more room that can allow extra freight. Iīm not going to say Spain has done things perfect, quite far from that in fact, but I think each case requires its own solution, the one that suits each situation better (and with an eye to the future, just in case).

Letīs not forget that some classic lines were built in the past to standards that, in comparison, were much more revolutionary than some new HSLs are, i.e. the Great Western Railway in Britain, a masterpiece of a railway, born out of the genius of IK Brunel, planned in the mid-19th century, and which is actually almost a HSL.
And letīs not forget, either, that in the beginning railways were considered little less than satanic, odd as it sounds nowadays.

p.s: I have two questions: what exactly means "ATM"? And "TSI"? I kind of guess it but Iīm not completely sure about it.
My technical English isnīt always top notch. Thank you.


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Not Valencia-Barcelona but Valencia-Tarragona central (somewhere in Reus Airport)
I think it finally was 25kV Camp de Tarragona-Vila-seca and 3kV Vila-seca-Valencia. Neutral section at Vila-seca.
The so called "Tarragona-Central" (which isnīt central to the city at all ) wonīt be built in the years to come. Maybe it wonīt be built at all.
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