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Old February 22nd, 2014, 01:51 AM   #2281
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Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Color poles are only used for high speed lines. On conventional lines grey poles are used. Why? I guess it is just about "marketing".
There are also some other differences as HS lines have higher clearance (GC) while conventional lines have smaller GA/GB. So in short term it makes sense to use two different standards but regarding future needs and especially conversion to UIC gauge short conventional poles may pose problems for gauge enhancements.

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The first high speed line, Madrid-Sevilla, used concrete poles as it was the first one so it is slightly different (and I think it was used a German standard).
Yes at that time Germans opted for concrete poles.

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In later high speed lines there was already a different standard design: at the beginning blue was used as the public company in charge of new railway lines was GIF (Gestor de Insfraestructuras Ferroviarias), whose corporate color was blue.

Later, the new organization of public companies for railways separated the activity between Renfe Operadora (rolling stock) and Adif (for infraestructures, Administrador de Infraestructuras Ferroviarias) whose color was dark green, and there you have the new color for poles.
That was what I was thinking but on freshly build line Medina del Campo - Zamora - Requejo I've spotted blue masts which made me go
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Old February 22nd, 2014, 02:03 AM   #2282
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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
There are also some other differences as HS lines have higher clearance (GC) while conventional lines have smaller GA/GB. So in short term it makes sense to use two different standards but regarding future needs and especially conversion to UIC gauge short conventional poles may pose problems for gauge enhancements.
Well, in the worst case it won't be a problem in Spain as Renfe and GIF gauges (it means, the conventional and traditional gauges in Spain) are far larger than the UIC and international standard, so, usually gauges in Spain are quite larger comparing with the Western European ones.



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That was what I was thinking but on freshly build line Medina del Campo - Zamora - Requejo I've spotted blue masts which made me go
Hahaha, that's true that some new blue poles have been detected in the last weeks, but nobody understands it...

Last edited by Reivajar; February 22nd, 2014 at 02:24 AM.
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Old February 22nd, 2014, 02:21 AM   #2283
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That´s because they belong to the old Segovia-Medina line, the part that´s left open as an access to Medina del Campo and the classic line to Galicia from the Madrid-Valladolid HSL, and reelectrified to 25 kV.

Now that a small part of the line is being adapted as the HSL to Galicia and double-tracked, the blue poles are kept.
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Old February 22nd, 2014, 02:25 AM   #2284
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post

That´s because they belong to the old Segovia-Medina line, the part that´s left open as an access to Medina del Campo and the classic line to Galicia from the Madrid-Valladolid HSL, and reelectrified to 25 kV.

Now that a small part of the line is being adapted as the HSL to Galicia and double-tracked, the blue poles are kept.
I think somebody in the Spanish forum had seen a bunch of new blue poles stored somewhere... or am I wrong?
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Old February 22nd, 2014, 05:09 AM   #2285
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Link or it didn´t happen.
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Old February 22nd, 2014, 05:13 AM   #2286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Link or it didn´t happen.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=4505

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Originally Posted by zoltan View Post
Hoy viajando en el matinal Galicia-Madrid he observado que definitivamente Medina AV - Coreses va en vía única y no me fijo en el reparto de traviesas sino que:

- Las cimentaciones para los postes de electrificacion solo en un lado cuando en Olmedo se ven en los dos lados.
- Hitos metálicos de alineación horizontal y vertical del eje de vía solo están en un lado cuando en Olmedo y Coreses se ven en los dos lados.

Por cierto de Tres Cantos a Fuencarral que motivo hay para hacer nuevas cimentaciones para los postes y acopios de postes azules como los del antiguo GIF. Por cierto los verdes ya no son verdes sino que parecen grises por la pérdida del color.
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Old February 22nd, 2014, 06:44 PM   #2287
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 11:08 AM   #2288
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BARCELONA
L'Hospitalet











Pont de La Maquinista
TGV to Paris

AVE to Toulouse
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 02:05 PM   #2289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Well, in the worst case it won't be a problem in Spain as Renfe and GIF gauges (it means, the conventional and traditional gauges in Spain) are far larger than the UIC and international standard, so, usually gauges in Spain are quite larger comparing with the Western European ones.

Well that's interesting is it present standard for new and modernised lines or it is from many Years. I am asking because all sources which I've read about clearance stated that Spain conventional network is restricted to GA/GB standards and watching cab views there is noticeable difference in catenaries height between HS lines and conventional ones.
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 03:55 PM   #2290
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I have no idea how old is the GIF gauge, but RENFE gauge is pretty old. At least it already existed in the 1950's. I think Talgo III got already that kind of RENFE gauge.

Anyway, conditions for high speed lines and conventional lines are different: height of catenary, clearance of tunnels and bridges, horizontal distance to obstacles, etc. Larger for higher speeds.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:17 PM   #2291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
I have no idea how old is the GIF gauge, but RENFE gauge is pretty old.
GIF Gauge is clearly based on GC standard and its greater wide on sides may be a result of triple gauge needs so it can be maximum 20 years old.


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At least it already existed in the 1950's. I think Talgo III got already that kind of RENFE gauge.
I don't think so as Talgo cars can be 3,15 m wide without obstructing minimal UIC clearance. Key to answering gauge question is also height of double deck trains in Spain, do someone know how tall are they?
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:30 PM   #2292
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I don't think so as Talgo cars can be 3,15 m wide without obstructing minimal UIC clearance. Key to answering gauge question is also height of double deck trains in Spain, do someone know how tall are they?
The point is that the first generation of Talgo III was only able to run on Spanish tracks, as it hasn't got variable gauge system yet. This way, it got 3200 mm wide and 3306 mm height cars as it only needed to keep Renfe clearance.

The second generation of Talgo III, already able to run on both Iberian and standard gauge tracks. It was the frist one provided with variable gauge system and that's why its width was reduced up to 2990 mm and its height up to 3282 for fitting to standard network clearance.

http://www.vialibre-ffe.com/pdf/11283_pdf_02.pdf (in Spanish)

Before the TGV Duplex, the only double deck trainsets were Renfe 450 and 451 series. They got 4300 mm height cars.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_450_de_Renfe
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Old February 24th, 2014, 03:54 PM   #2293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
The point is that the first generation of Talgo III was only able to run on Spanish tracks, as it hasn't got variable gauge system yet. This way, it got 3200 mm wide and 3306 mm height cars as it only needed to keep Renfe clearance.

The second generation of Talgo III, already able to run on both Iberian and standard gauge tracks. It was the frist one provided with variable gauge system and that's why its width was reduced up to 2990 mm and its height up to 3282 for fitting to standard network clearance.
Talgo Avril again can have 3200 mm wide cars and this is within UIC clearance.


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Before the TGV Duplex, the only double deck trainsets were Renfe 450 and 451 series. They got 4300 mm height cars.
Again height is fully compatible with UIC clerance GA/GB:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ra...ofile_-ISO.png
While countries as Netherlands, Germany, Austria, and former east block standard gauge countries use G2 standard known in OSJD as 0-VM thus there double deck cars were 4,65 m high:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lademass_EBO.png

Although in 450 / 451 series width of 2,926 m with 26,4 m long cars suggests that althought heigh on conventional lines was restricted to GA/GB standard width was slightly greater as such long UIC gauge cars can be only 2,8 m wide.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 04:10 PM   #2294
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Talgo Avril again can have 3200 mm wide cars and this is within UIC clearance.
Yes, it is because electronical systems and far finner suspensions are installed on Talgo Avril than in Talgo III. So, keeping the vehicle more stable on tracks allows a better optimization of volume within the UIC clearance limits.

Quote:
Again height is fully compatible with UIC clerance GA/GB:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ra...ofile_-ISO.png
While countries as Netherlands, Germany, Austria, and former east block standard gauge countries use G2 standard known in OSJD as 0-VM thus there double deck cars were 4,65 m high:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lademass_EBO.png

Although in 450 / 451 series width of 2,926 m with 26,4 m long cars suggests that althought heigh on conventional lines was restricted to GA/GB standard width was slightly greater as such long UIC gauge cars can be only 2,8 m wide.
Probably it is because after all, Renfe 450 and 451 series were intended to run only on Renfe tracks, so you can take the most of the conventional Renfe clearance. But they are supposedly based on some French double deck commuter trains by Alsthom, but adapted to the Spanish network. 437.001 knows their history better.
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Last edited by Reivajar; February 24th, 2014 at 09:41 PM.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 10:25 PM   #2295
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Leon-Gijon classic line.
Pola de Lena station.


A freight train heading towards Leon on the classic line through Pajares pass, pulled by a tándem of class 289 locos.
On the left of the train we see the end of the Pajares base tunnels new line, under construction.

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Old February 26th, 2014, 01:04 AM   #2296
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I checked for France myself (sncf makes it easy to do), but I was wondering about Spain as well. If you take corner to corner trips (San Sebastian-Cadiz, Barcelona-Cadiz, Barcelona-A Coruna, A Coruna-Malaga) does it take longer with a train or with a car? Barcelona-Cadiz definitely faster with a train as one could use HS line most of the way, might not be the case for other cross country routes...
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Old February 26th, 2014, 01:40 AM   #2297
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For Barcelona-Santander and Barcelona-Almeria, definitely the car is the better option, the way things are now.
Barcelona-Galicia, it depends on where exactly in Galicia you are going to, and wether you change trains at Madrid (takes shorter) or nor and you take the direct one (longer).

Antway, the shape the country has, many trips are, are are bound to being diametral (or radial + radial) in the future, not strictly transversal.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 01:58 AM   #2298
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Medina del Campo-Salamanca-Fuentes de oñoro/Vilar Formoso line.
El Pedroso de la Armuña station.


The poles have reached the entrance to this station:

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Old February 26th, 2014, 02:02 AM   #2299
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I checked for France myself (sncf makes it easy to do), but I was wondering about Spain as well. If you take corner to corner trips (San Sebastian-Cadiz, Barcelona-Cadiz, Barcelona-A Coruna, A Coruna-Malaga) does it take longer with a train or with a car? Barcelona-Cadiz definitely faster with a train as one could use HS line most of the way, might not be the case for other cross country routes...

From Barcelona it will worth the train to every corner except Almeria, Santander and few cities more. Maybe you will have to change train in Madrid or other city but it will be faster. Anyway, for Gijon/Oviedo and for Granada (and OF COURSE for Malaga) it will worth

For other relations corner to corner, first of all... if you have to cross (or bound) Madrid, it will surely worth.


Trips longer than 400 km that do not worth by train because time..

- Almeria to Eastern Spain or Alicante/Murcia to southern Spain
- Silver route (Caceres-Salamanca-Leon and any journey that takes that route because line is closed since a long time ago)
- And well... close to Cantabric Sea there ir a railway with scenic pictures but not fast at all. It can be useful but do not think on HSL.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 02:12 AM   #2300
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- Silver route (Caceres-Salamanca-Leon and any journey that takes that route because line is closed since a long time ago)
- And well... close to Cantabric Sea there ir a railway with scenic pictures but not fast at all. It can be useful but do not think on HSL.
In the English language, the term "Silver route" doesn´t exist, it´s "Ruta de la Plata" (Seville to Caceres, Leon and Asturias), which is best not translated since the name doesn´t come from silver, but from the Arabic term "al-balata", meaning "paved route", as that´s an old Roman road.

In English you do not say "Cantabric Sea", this is a term existing only in Spanish, you do want to say "Atlantic Ocean" instead.
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