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Old August 22nd, 2008, 10:33 PM   #521
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AVRIL means Alta Velocidad Rueda Independiente Ligero (Light Independent Wheel High Speed) and it's a project of the spanish corp. Talgo.

It is a kind of "Pato" (Renfe S-102 AVE) with more seats in the space where are now all the electric stuff. They try to put all that equipment under the floor (as a AGV or Velaro), buy only in the place of the extreme cars, while the rest of cars are normal Talgo AV cars, as in a "Pato".

They expect to release this model between 1011-2013
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Old August 22nd, 2008, 11:13 PM   #522
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Here you can see the two trains. First the "Pato" Renfe S-102 AVE, and below the AVRIL project. Common bogie could not be implemented on final design (due to weight-per-axe limit, it could be exceed).





Traction cars are only the extreme ones, like in the "Pato".

The Pato could achieve more than 360 km/h, and the new AVRIL would be able to run at a constant speed over 400 km/h
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 04:41 PM   #523
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So, there are two different projects sharing the same name.
The only "AVRIL" I knew of (short of: Alta Velocità, Ruote Indipendenti, Leggero) was the project I menctioned before, drawn by the italian engineer Romano Panagin.
I knew nothing about the spanish "Pato Avril". Thanks for the information.
BTW: where can I get some more details of the Avril train you are talking about?
Thanks in advance.
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Old August 23rd, 2008, 04:47 PM   #524
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Sorry, but you can't. A couple of Talgo engineers told me about it, but I don't know anything else
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Old August 25th, 2008, 02:07 AM   #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bipo View Post
Here you can see the two trains. First the "Pato" Renfe S-102 AVE, and below the AVRIL project. Common bogie could not be implemented on final design (due to weight-per-axe limit, it could be exceed).





Traction cars are only the extreme ones, like in the "Pato".

The Pato could achieve more than 360 km/h, and the new AVRIL would be able to run at a constant speed over 400 km/h
400km/h as constant speed?
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Old August 25th, 2008, 03:08 AM   #526
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Remember that SNCF are testing their TGVs at very high speeds (last May they reach more than 580 km/h!!) because they are planning to operate at constant speeds of 150 m/s (540 km/h) before 2020s decade is out

Their objective is making TGVs able to travel from Lille to Marseille in less than 2:30 hours (Applied to Spain: Málaga-Barcelona in 2:30 or less, Madrid-Barcelona just a little over an hour!)
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Old August 25th, 2008, 12:15 PM   #527
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because they are planning to operate at constant speeds of 150 m/s (540 km/h) before 2020s decade is out
no
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Old August 25th, 2008, 04:02 PM   #528
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Yes, an ADIF engineer told me about it last month
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Old August 25th, 2008, 05:27 PM   #529
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Quote:
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Yes, an ADIF engineer told me about it last month
Bipo, I think you're mistaken - or, at least, overinterpreting what you've been told. I live in Paris and I am a keen reader of French rail magazines, and what you say is news to me. The name "Projet V150" was given to the concrete undertaking that secured SNCF its new speed record on LGV-Est last year. It is true that the speed record, and by extension V150, has been billed on various websites as part of an effort to obtain material speed increases on the main lines over the coming 20 years.

But, as far as I know, that's about all there is to it. SNCF has said publicly - in unrelated contexts - that they expect a cruising speed of 360 km/h within the foreseeable future. And this they must say: people here in France are quite fetichistic about Three Hours as the maximal travel time between two cities in regular point-to-point service. And, if 3 hours are to be obtained on the nascent Paris-Toulouse and Paris-Nice lines, then 360 km/h is the order of the day. As for the rest of their big words... I suspect that they - as well as to some extent the speed record - had as their main purpose strengthning Alstom's marketing position in the emerging HST markets outside Europe.
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Old August 25th, 2008, 06:05 PM   #530
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Well, that's quite logical, but you also know that increasing speed must not be stopped at 360 km/h. Maybe that will be the top speed for next 10 or 15 years, but is neccesary to keep on testing over those speeds with the aim of, in a not-so-far future, HST will be able to reach higher speed in regular services.

High Speed Trains must replace planes in all less-than-1.000 km routes. Burning kerosene for relatively short distances, as lots of countries are doing at the moment, is not sustainable. And the only way to get that objective is making trains faster and faster.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 12:09 PM   #531
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the power consumption is not proportional to the speed.

An increase of 10% of speed (300 to 330) is not necessarly a 10% increase in power consumption.

And it is not easy to mantain such speeds.

We can't know what will be possible in 2050, but as for now, even "only" 360 km/h are difficult to mantain.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 12:40 PM   #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bipo View Post


Well, that's quite logical, but you also know that increasing speed must not be stopped at 360 km/h. Maybe that will be the top speed for next 10 or 15 years, but is neccesary to keep on testing over those speeds with the aim of, in a not-so-far future, HST will be able to reach higher speed in regular services.

High Speed Trains must replace planes in all less-than-1.000 km routes
. Burning kerosene for relatively short distances, as lots of countries are doing at the moment, is not sustainable. And the only way to get that objective is making trains faster and faster.
The thing is, that at 360 km/h, trains *can* replace planes on those routes. We just need the rails for them. If you're going to look at longer routes higher speeds are going to help of course but there, infrastructure is going to be even more of an issue.
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Old August 26th, 2008, 02:54 PM   #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
the power consumption is not proportional to the speed.

An increase of 10% of speed (300 to 330) is not necessarly a 10% increase in power consumption.

And it is not easy to mantain such speeds.

We can't know what will be possible in 2050, but as for now, even "only" 360 km/h are difficult to mantain.
Increasing top speed from 300 to 350 km/h (+16%) increases power consumption only +8%, but that speed increase would make that HSTs "steal" more an more passenger from airplanes, that as you know burn lots of kerosene. As a result, overall power consumption is not increased, but it is reduced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Koen Acacia View Post
The thing is, that at 360 km/h, trains *can* replace planes on those routes. We just need the rails for them. If you're going to look at longer routes higher speeds are going to help of course but there, infrastructure is going to be even more of an issue.
Even for shorter routes, faster trains would make more people let the car at home and take the train. In fact, between Tokyo and Osaka, at the moment, Nozomi HST takes no more than 2:30, but they are going to build a new MagLev HST that would make HSTs to be able to keep on running at constant speeds over 500 km/h, and to do the same route in just one hour or a bit more.

In HST there is a concept very very clear: The faster it goes, the more people it "catch" from other kinds of transport. And HSTs are the most envioremental-friendly transportation way.
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Last edited by Bipo; August 26th, 2008 at 03:03 PM.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:19 AM   #534
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Quote:
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Even for shorter routes, faster trains would make more people let the car at home and take the train. In fact, between Tokyo and Osaka, at the moment, Nozomi HST takes no more than 2:30, but they are going to build a new MagLev HST that would make HSTs to be able to keep on running at constant speeds over 500 km/h, and to do the same route in just one hour or a bit more.

In HST there is a concept very very clear: The faster it goes, the more people it "catch" from other kinds of transport. And HSTs are the most envioremental-friendly transportation way.
Sorry, I fail to see how that would affect a passenger's decision in any noticeable way.
If the price is competitive, and door-to-door travel would cost me only three hours instead of a plane's 3.5 hours, I'll take the TGV, easy. Now, they speed the thing up, and it's only going to take me 2.5 hours instead of the previous three. Result: I'll still take the TGV, just like I did before (unless, of course, that extra speed means they're not price-competitive anymore).
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Old August 27th, 2008, 01:19 PM   #535
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Travelling time makes the difference.

I'll show you a perfect example: In the Madid - Barcelona corridor, "air bridge" take almost 90% of passengers. Even with te fast train "Alvia" (just 75€) that only took 3:55, people continued going on plane. Well, last February the AVE services (120€, a 60% more expensive than Alvia) began at last, taking between 3:20 (services with stops) and only 2:38 (direct services) for the same travel. Result: nowadays more than 50% of passengers take the AVE to go between those cities, and it began working only six months ago! I'm sure that before one year it will take 80% or more percent of the passengers.

Time is a precious and people know it.
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Old August 29th, 2008, 07:18 AM   #536
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Rail now taking 30% of Barcelona - Madrid route

The latest data from AENA indicates that the new high-speed rail service between Madrid and Barcelona has reduced air travel demand between the two cities by around 30%. In 2007 the route carried almost five million passengers. This year the figure is likely to fall to around 3.5 million.



http://www.anna.aero/2008/08/15/span...arter-of-2008/
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Old August 30th, 2008, 06:34 PM   #537
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Sorry, I fail to see how that would affect a passenger's decision in any noticeable way.
If the price is competitive, and door-to-door travel would cost me only three hours instead of a plane's 3.5 hours, I'll take the TGV, easy. Now, they speed the thing up, and it's only going to take me 2.5 hours instead of the previous three. Result: I'll still take the TGV, just like I did before (unless, of course, that extra speed means they're not price-competitive anymore).
Your logic has a hole in it ...

It's not about you going for the 2,5 hours it took you to go previously ... but in fact is about you going (either if you went previously in 3h or 3,5h or even not going at all) for the 1h it takes to get you on the other side nowadays.

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Old August 30th, 2008, 11:47 PM   #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koen Acacia View Post
Sorry, I fail to see how that would affect a passenger's decision in any noticeable way.
If the price is competitive, and door-to-door travel would cost me only three hours instead of a plane's 3.5 hours, I'll take the TGV, easy. Now, they speed the thing up, and it's only going to take me 2.5 hours instead of the previous three. Result: I'll still take the TGV, just like I did before (unless, of course, that extra speed means they're not price-competitive anymore).
The problem is the price:
AVE from BCN to MAD or vice versa: from 50 to 125 euros for one way.
Plane from BCN to Madrid or vice versa: from 35 to 100 euros for one way.

I choose plane, for the moment...
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Old August 31st, 2008, 11:36 AM   #539
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Quote:
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The problem is the price:
AVE from BCN to MAD or vice versa: from 50 to 125 euros for one way.
Plane from BCN to Madrid or vice versa: from 35 to 100 euros for one way.

I choose plane, for the moment...
If the problem is the price, then I doubt that those prices will go down by speeding the thing up more. Every extra km of speed is more expensive than the previous one.
At those prices, I'd *definitely* take the AVE over the plane btw. You're just mentioning the cost of the plane ticket here, and for some reason I doubt that getting to/from the Madrid/Barcelona airports has suddenly become free.
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Old August 31st, 2008, 01:54 PM   #540
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When I was in Barcelona, the plane to Madrid was delayed 6 hours. I bet at least some of those people who had to wait will take the train next time.
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