daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 22nd, 2009, 08:40 PM   #761
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Hum... I have a question. As the journalists like to say, the key to a good story is not "what" and not "who" and not even "how". The key to a good story is "why". Looking at the Spanish HS development (and development plans) I get beset with the question why.

Until 5-6 years ago I thought I understood perfectly. The development strategy looked very much like the paths that had been followed in France and Japan. One line at a time, completed and tested before one would consider beginning on a new line, starting with Madrid-Sevilla, then Madrid-Zaragossa (and on to Barcelona, though this project was a bit of a laugh...); then Madrid-Vallidolid; then the prolongation to Malaga. And so on. But...

...all of a sudden it looks like our Spanish friends are working on 8-10 HS lines at the same time. If one studies a map of Spain it would further appear that the costal mountain ranges are, in almost all cases, the first to be attacked whereby hundreds of kilometers of connecting tracks pointing into the Castillian plains are left for later consideration. - And THIS in a country where the HS lines and the conventional tracks have different gauge widths? What's going on? I'm sure the Spanish government pursues some sort of long-term strategy but... what strategy? I'd be most obliged if anyone has inside information.
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 23rd, 2009, 05:47 PM   #762
AAJ
Registered User
 
AAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Madrid
Posts: 1,270
Likes (Received): 167

The reason why Spain is constructing lines across the costal mountains first, is because the old layout is poor, so the new route allows good time savings. We can see it in Galicia, Asturias and the Basque Country. However, except in Galicia, these new routes will allow the use of freight trains, and "Variante de Pajares" (Asturias) will be mixed gauge. The maximum speed will be 250 km/h (in Galicia which will be 350 km/h between Orense and Santiago de Compostela).

However, in Castilla y Leon are building new HSL between Valladolid, Palencia, Burgos and Vitoria, between Leon and Palencia, and between Valladolid and Zamora (the latter belongs to the HSL Madrid-Santiago de Compostela). Soon begin to build the section between Zamora and Orense).

In 2020 it is expected that much of the Spanish rail network is standard gauge.

Last edited by AAJ; August 23rd, 2009 at 05:53 PM.
AAJ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2009, 06:03 PM   #763
AAJ
Registered User
 
AAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Madrid
Posts: 1,270
Likes (Received): 167

Here you can download a map of the Spanish railway network with all the new lines that we are building.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ocwaghdzgm9
AAJ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2009, 08:35 AM   #764
zaphod
PRESIDENT OF SPACE
 
zaphod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,176
Likes (Received): 1678

Ah I see, so until high speed trains start running these new tracks can be used by conventional trains and freight, if they are standard gauge or have variable gauge wheel apparatus? Are they laying any mixed gauge sleepers on the high speed lines?

I love reading about this, Spain is going to have a national network faster than any other place
zaphod está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2009, 11:14 AM   #765
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJ View Post
The reason why Spain is constructing lines across the costal mountains first, is because the old layout is poor, so the new route allows good time savings. We can see it in Galicia, Asturias and the Basque Country....

In 2020 it is expected that much of the Spanish rail network is standard gauge.
Thanks, AJJ. I didn't realise that so much of the new lines will be mixed passenger/freight. I hope this will not impede the HS passenger traffic too much as has happened on certain lines in other countries.

One of my questions does, however, remain unanswered: Why is the government suddenly building bits and pieces of lines all across the country? In the past Spain has (consistent with other European countries) done one, long, line at a time. It might have continued doing so. In the past the government would probably have decided to finish Madrid-Valencia or Valloidolid-Basque Country in one big breath, and then move on to the next priority. Now, instead, there's work on 70 km here, 120 km there... all across the country. Why this change of strategy?
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2009, 02:13 PM   #766
pccvspw999
Registered User
 
pccvspw999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Milan
Posts: 5,883
Likes (Received): 1883

I think the main reason for a change of strategy are european contributions which are getting available only for projects in underdeveloped regions, instead for an upgrading to european standards of national infrastructures.

I don't know exactly how the european politics towards Spain has changed, but it has. Subsequently, the internal strategy may have changed, as a result of that change.
pccvspw999 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2009, 03:10 PM   #767
gincan
Gincan
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 889
Likes (Received): 186

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Thanks, AJJ. I didn't realise that so much of the new lines will be mixed passenger/freight. I hope this will not impede the HS passenger traffic too much as has happened on certain lines in other countries.

One of my questions does, however, remain unanswered: Why is the government suddenly building bits and pieces of lines all across the country? In the past Spain has (consistent with other European countries) done one, long, line at a time. It might have continued doing so. In the past the government would probably have decided to finish Madrid-Valencia or Valloidolid-Basque Country in one big breath, and then move on to the next priority. Now, instead, there's work on 70 km here, 120 km there... all across the country. Why this change of strategy?
Well Spain is a political confederation, regional politics weight a lot more in Spain than anywhere else in europe i guess. The central government has to please 17 regions and that mean balancing on a thin political thread.

Say they would postpone the HSR connection to Granada for example, then the Andalucian government would interfere with the central government and all sorts of complications would arise.

Last edited by gincan; August 24th, 2009 at 03:23 PM.
gincan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2009, 04:06 PM   #768
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by pccvspw999 View Post
I think the main reason for a change of strategy are european contributions which are getting available only for projects in underdeveloped regions, instead for an upgrading to european standards of national infrastructures.
Ah, yes, of course. Thanks. I should have thought of this myself.

I'm hardly an expert in EU funding, but there are at least three alleys for support for infrastructure. Generally speaking it's (1) structural funds to the country; (2) help, as you say, to underdeveloped regions; and (3) TEN funds specifically to high-speed networks with a European dimension. After the admission of 10 East European countries in the EU, plus Cyprus and Malta, Spain no longer qualifies as a country that needs to catch up with the European average. The average has moved, so to speak. Therefore funds of type (1) have dried up; and funds of type (3) can be used only for projects such as Barcelona-Perpignan. The main remaining pot of cash is the regional contributions to help upgrade troubled areas. Hence all the activity in Asturias and Galicia...
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2009, 04:20 PM   #769
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Well Spain is a political confederation, regional politics weight a lot more in Spain than anywhere else in europe i guess. The central government has to please 17 regions and that mean balancing on a thin political thread.
Yeah, but... Spain was also a confederation when Madrid-Sevilla was rolled out (against LOUD opposition, I may add). Same thing applies to Madrid-Barcelona. Something HAS change. (See also my previous response.)
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2009, 05:55 PM   #770
AAJ
Registered User
 
AAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Madrid
Posts: 1,270
Likes (Received): 167

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
Ah I see, so until high speed trains start running these new tracks can be used by conventional trains and freight, if they are standard gauge or have variable gauge wheel apparatus? Are they laying any mixed gauge sleepers on the high speed lines?

I love reading about this, Spain is going to have a national network faster than any other place
No. Some tracks tracks will be use by freight trains and HS trains indefinitely, for example Variante de Pajares -new access to Asturias-. In this case, we are lying mixed gauge sleepers:


Example of mixed gauge.

This will be manteined until the Spanish network becomes to standard gauge (+2020).

In other cases, it will be one conventinal line used by freight trains parallel to an HSL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Well Spain is a political confederation, regional politics weight a lot more in Spain than anywhere else in europe i guess. The central government has to please 17 regions and that mean balancing on a thin political thread.

Say they would postpone the HSR connection to Granada for example, then the Andalucian government would interfere with the central government and all sorts of complications would arise.
Exactly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Yeah, but... Spain was also a confederation when Madrid-Sevilla was rolled out (against LOUD opposition, I may add). Same thing applies to Madrid-Barcelona. Something HAS change. (See also my previous response.)
In the late 80s and early 90s, the regions had no such influence.
AAJ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2009, 09:51 PM   #771
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,433
Likes (Received): 325

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Hum... I have a question. As the journalists like to say, the key to a good story is not "what" and not "who" and not even "how". The key to a good story is "why". Looking at the Spanish HS development (and development plans) I get beset with the question why.

Until 5-6 years ago I thought I understood perfectly. The development strategy looked very much like the paths that had been followed in France and Japan. One line at a time, completed and tested before one would consider beginning on a new line, starting with Madrid-Sevilla, then Madrid-Zaragossa (and on to Barcelona, though this project was a bit of a laugh...); then Madrid-Vallidolid; then the prolongation to Malaga. And so on. But...

...all of a sudden it looks like our Spanish friends are working on 8-10 HS lines at the same time. If one studies a map of Spain it would further appear that the costal mountain ranges are, in almost all cases, the first to be attacked whereby hundreds of kilometers of connecting tracks pointing into the Castillian plains are left for later consideration. - And THIS in a country where the HS lines and the conventional tracks have different gauge widths? What's going on? I'm sure the Spanish government pursues some sort of long-term strategy but... what strategy? I'd be most obliged if anyone has inside information.
It's a simple error in apreciation .... you just missed the groundwork that was already there ... those 8-10 HS lines were under construction already ... you just didn't see them as the isolated works were not worthy of major press releases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
Ah I see, so until high speed trains start running these new tracks can be used by conventional trains and freight, if they are standard gauge or have variable gauge wheel apparatus? Are they laying any mixed gauge sleepers on the high speed lines?

I love reading about this, Spain is going to have a national network faster than any other place
Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Thanks, AJJ. I didn't realise that so much of the new lines will be mixed passenger/freight. I hope this will not impede the HS passenger traffic too much as has happened on certain lines in other countries.

One of my questions does, however, remain unanswered: Why is the government suddenly building bits and pieces of lines all across the country? In the past Spain has (consistent with other European countries) done one, long, line at a time. It might have continued doing so. In the past the government would probably have decided to finish Madrid-Valencia or Valloidolid-Basque Country in one big breath, and then move on to the next priority. Now, instead, there's work on 70 km here, 120 km there... all across the country. Why this change of strategy?
The track upgrades on areas where "conventional" routes have speeds of up-to 160km/h were left for other stages of construction.

So you end up with the LONG QUADRUPLICATIONS (a.k.a. the 4 main radial routes madrid-galicia/cantabria/north , madrid-barcelona , madrid-valencia , madrid-andaluxia) being "finished" first ... and at the same time with the enormous amount of time saved in these trunk routes you start to see the major-gap-savers (a.k.a. the mountanious sections) nearing completionm (but some of them took ages to built in the meantime) ... some sections of "easily upgradeable" trackage are left for the end stages due preciselly to their mixed-traffic nature ... they will wait for the gauge conversion process to start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pccvspw999 View Post
I think the main reason for a change of strategy are european contributions which are getting available only for projects in underdeveloped regions, instead for an upgrading to european standards of national infrastructures.

I don't know exactly how the european politics towards Spain has changed, but it has. Subsequently, the internal strategy may have changed, as a result of that change.
As far as I know there has been NO political change at all in terms of the shedule of project/construction/opening of any HSL route in spain.


Things were actually projected to ocur in this fashionable way from the start.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2009, 05:45 PM   #772
gincan
Gincan
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 889
Likes (Received): 186

The Spanish railway investments for the year 2010 have now been published and amount to 10,2 billion euros, of this 5,4 billion will be allocated to HSR investments. Here is a list for the biggest expenditure posts.

HSR Madrid - Mediterranean Coast 1470 million euros
HSR Madrid - French Border 1098 million euros
HSR Madrid - Galicia 895 million euros
HSR Madrid - Asturias 618 million euros
HSR Madrid - Portuguese Border 335 million euros
HSR Madrid - Granada 330 million euros
HSR Murcia - Almeria 229 million euros
HSR Coruña - Vigo 227 million euros
HSR Basque Y 218 million euros
HSR Seville - Cadiz 113 million euros
HSR Tarragona - Castellón 59 million euros
HSR Madrid - Jaén 46 million euros
HSR Seville - Huelva 24 millon euros
HSR Madrid - Basque country 22 million euros
HSR Mediterranean - Atlantic axis 21 million euros
gincan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2009, 10:37 PM   #773
Chilenofuturista
Zug->für 'ne bessere welt
 
Chilenofuturista's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,766
Likes (Received): 274

Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The Spanish railway investments for the year 2010 have now been published and amount to 10,2 billion euros, of this 5,4 billion will be allocated to HSR investments. Here is a list for the biggest expenditure posts.

HSR Madrid - Mediterranean Coast 1470 million euros
HSR Madrid - French Border 1098 million euros
HSR Madrid - Galicia 895 million euros
HSR Madrid - Asturias 618 million euros
HSR Madrid - Portuguese Border 335 million euros
HSR Madrid - Granada 330 million euros
HSR Murcia - Almeria 229 million euros
HSR Coruña - Vigo 227 million euros
HSR Basque Y 218 million euros
HSR Seville - Cadiz 113 million euros
HSR Tarragona - Castellón 59 million euros
HSR Madrid - Jaén 46 million euros
HSR Seville - Huelva 24 millon euros
HSR Madrid - Basque country 22 million euros
HSR Mediterranean - Atlantic axis 21 million euros
Viva España.
Chilenofuturista no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 13th, 2009, 12:58 PM   #774
Patryk
Registered User
 
Patryk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Świnoujście*Poznań*Warszawa
Posts: 775
Likes (Received): 55

Super. Que bien!!
Patryk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2009, 01:17 PM   #775
JMFA
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lisbon
Posts: 1,609
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJ View Post
these new routes will allow the use of freight trains, and "Variante de Pajares" (Asturias) will be mixed gauge. The maximum speed will be 250 km/h (...)
In 2020 it is expected that much of the Spanish rail network is standard gauge.
Are you sure that "variante de pajares" is being built using doble gauge (.i.e UIC gauge AND iberian gauge)?.. i tried to find out about it, but in adif site they say that it is standard gauge.. (even ferropedia.es says that).

Can you confirm this? thanks.
JMFA no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2009, 01:25 PM   #776
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

I have also heard that it will have double gauge tracks. There is a lot of confusion about that.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2009, 11:39 AM   #777
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...-for-2010.html
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2009, 12:08 AM   #778
briatepro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1
Likes (Received): 0

Awesome work guys!!! simply amazing. Anyone have any tips to getting started with this sort of thing? stock photo sites, how you do things ect. I'd love to give this a shot next time so any info would be great
briatepro no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2009, 04:40 PM   #779
gincan
Gincan
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 889
Likes (Received): 186

A recent presentation by the spanish government of a semi-new rail-link between Valencia and Santander. It's kinda interesting considering that the idea of this line is as old as the Spanish rail network and that they've already failed one attempt to construct it, although that was half a century ago. Let us see if they can manage to realise it this time around

Although they only speak spanish the graphics are easy to understand

Last edited by gincan; January 2nd, 2010 at 12:05 AM.
gincan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 5th, 2009, 08:31 PM   #780
Cicerón
Espere verde
 
Cicerón's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: En el obscuro jardín del manicomio
Posts: 3,876
Likes (Received): 53

I've made a map with the current and future travel times.



Cicerón no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alicante, ave, canfranc, high speed rail, spain in the world

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium