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Old May 21st, 2010, 04:38 AM   #841
sotavento
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Unifying their gauge would be a better idea.
What ???


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Yes it is, but the traditional network is still isolated from Europe

WHAT DO YOU THINK that the AVe network is there for ??? it's the spanish way of building UIC gauge routes ithour having to destroy the network-effect of the iberian gauge wich ahs been painstakingly been rebuilt with dual-gauge sleepers for the last 15 years).
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Old May 21st, 2010, 09:51 AM   #842
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
What ???
The break of gauge limit seriously the freight traffic between the Iberian peninsula and the rest of Europe. Currently only 5% of so of the goods that cross the French-Spanish border by land do it by train. And the HSL will not directly help that (but they help to decrease traffic on traditional lines, so in an indirect way they help freight traffic and gauge conversion).
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Old May 21st, 2010, 11:16 AM   #843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The break of gauge limit seriously the freight traffic between the Iberian peninsula and the rest of Europe. Currently only 5% of so of the goods that cross the French-Spanish border by land do it by train. And the HSL will not directly help that (but they help to decrease traffic on traditional lines, so in an indirect way they help freight traffic and gauge conversion).

The Port of Barcelona envisages that a standard gauge rail link with France will come about at some point. It's not madness to believe that this will be the case I think, and when it does materialise at least rail would then have a good chance of grabbing a larger slice of the cargo market along this particular corridor.

See: http://www.portdebarcelona.es and click on the 'Strategic Plan' section.

Once web report I saw a while ago had been saying that the plan envisages the construction of a brand new freight-only line all the way to France, although the official maps indicate that the idea is simply to modify the classic Iberian gauge rail line between France and Barcelona into a dual gauge route, which clearly would be a cheaper way of doing things.
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Old May 21st, 2010, 01:40 PM   #844
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The UIC gauge link to the port of Barcelona will be operational within a year if not earlier. When the other ports (Cartagena, Alicante, Valencia, Sagunto, Castellon and Tarragona) start to lose business to Barcelona the political pressure from the Valencia region will speed up the gauge change on the existing line.
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Old May 21st, 2010, 03:02 PM   #845
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Freight transport across the border is a great topic, but HSL in Spain are fully dedicated to passenger transport.

Here is a question for you guys, who do you think is going to pull this bid off?

+500pax +300Km/h

at the moment seems that Alstom will go with a version of the TGV Duplex, Talgo with the Avril concept, Bombardier with the Zefiro 380.
CAF will unveil a new HST model in the next International Rail Forum in Valencia on the 24th of May... could it be for this line? and Ansaldo is not clear to me, wonder what the come up with.

which would be politically correct since will operate on both sides of the Pirinees?
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Old May 21st, 2010, 03:27 PM   #846
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Originally Posted by Andres_Low View Post
Freight transport across the border is a great topic, but HSL in Spain are fully dedicated to passenger transport.
Not entirely true, the new line between Barcelona and France will be mixed traffic, so not only passengers, but also freight.
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Old May 21st, 2010, 04:15 PM   #847
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
The UIC gauge link to the port of Barcelona will be operational within a year if not earlier.
When you say UIC gauge, you mean standard gauge I presume?

And it won't be ready within a year - it isn't even being built yet.

If you're referring to the new high speed line between the French border and Barcelona, this is for passenger traffic only.
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Old May 21st, 2010, 04:19 PM   #848
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Not entirely true, the new line between Barcelona and France will be mixed traffic, so not only passengers, but also freight.
If you're right about this, can you direct me to any official website that confirms it to be the case?

Everything I've read about the Spanish section of the high speed line says that is to be strictly for passenger traffic only, while the bit within France, between the Perpignan area and the Montpellier area will be for cargo traffic also.
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Old May 21st, 2010, 04:46 PM   #849
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Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
If you're right about this, can you direct me to any official website that confirms it to be the case?

Everything I've read about the Spanish section of the high speed line says that is to be strictly for passenger traffic only, while the bit within France, between the Perpignan area and the Montpellier area will be for cargo traffic also.
Everything I have read about the Perpignan - Figueras line says that the line is Passengers and Cargo. I don't know what the Spanish intend to build south of Figueras though. Could be that they'll build seperate lines for freight and passengers there.
See for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Per...%80%93Figueres
The company that build the line doens't have much of a webpresence yet though:
http://www.tpferro.com/

The part Perpignan - Figueras is ready, and could be used, but for the small detail that it's not connected to the Spanish network yet in Figueras.
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Old May 21st, 2010, 04:56 PM   #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
If you're right about this, can you direct me to any official website that confirms it to be the case?
consider this as official
Adif Says:
"Another exclusive characteristics of this line is its design for mixed passenger and cargo traffic (between Barcelona Port and the connection with France) which involves the possibility of establishing new services for or from the the intermodal centres in France and other European countries."

extract from :
http://www.adif.es/en_US/infraestruc...francesa.shtml
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Old May 21st, 2010, 07:03 PM   #851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres_Low View Post
consider this as official
Adif Says:
"Another exclusive characteristics of this line is its design for mixed passenger and cargo traffic (between Barcelona Port and the connection with France) which involves the possibility of establishing new services for or from the the intermodal centres in France and other European countries."

extract from :
http://www.adif.es/en_US/infraestruc...francesa.shtml

Mange tout, Rodney, mange tout.

Thanks for correcting me. I'm very happy that I've been wrong in my thinking, because this does indeed mean that the intermodal market, for both shipping containers through Barcelona and domestic European units between Southern Spain and the rest of Europe, will be ready for a boost.

Now if only the conventional trunk rail lines in France, which all cargo trains will carry on using, gave clearance for 4m-high semi-trailers...
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Old May 21st, 2010, 07:24 PM   #852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
When you say UIC gauge, you mean standard gauge I presume?
UIC - International Union of Railways

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
And it won't be ready within a year - it isn't even being built yet.
Of cause it will, they are installing third rail along the existing railway between Figueras and Girona and between Mollet and the port. The Figueras-Perpignan HSR is finished and the HSR between Girona and Mollet will be finished within a few months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
If you're referring to the new high speed line between the French border and Barcelona, this is for passenger traffic only.
No it is built for mixed traffic, both HSR and freight trains.
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Old May 21st, 2010, 08:00 PM   #853
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There is no UIC gauge. It's a definition widely used in Spain tod esign standard gauge but not elsewhere.
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Old May 21st, 2010, 08:57 PM   #854
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Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post

Now if only the conventional trunk rail lines in France, which all cargo trains will carry on using, gave clearance for 4m-high semi-trailers...
Do you mean the south east line does not have enough clearance for moving trucks/trailers by train?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
There is no UIC gauge. It's a definition widely used in Spain tod esign standard gauge but not elsewhere.
yep thats right

Last edited by Andres_Low; May 21st, 2010 at 09:09 PM.
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Old May 22nd, 2010, 08:39 PM   #855
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Do you mean the south east line does not have enough clearance for moving trucks/trailers by train?

I'm not sure what you mean by the 'south east line'. If you are referring to the classic 'PLM' rail line between Paris, Lyon and the Mediterranean, then yes, the 'B+' loading gauge only allows for the passage of special low-height piggyback road trailers of around 3.8m or so in height, when using standard piggyback wagons.

The problem is, only a tiny handful of transport operators now invest in these low-height trailers, and these operators are mostly those that have a focus on the Gotthard transport corridor.

The way the railway would be able to grab the largest slice of the southern Spain-rest of Europe cargo market were if train services could operate that would carry standard 4m-high trailers in piggyback mode.

This would mean that today's road-only transport operators would be able to consider switching to intermodal road-rail without the worry of losing any kind of loading capacity within the road trailers. See for example the trailer fleet of LKW Walter: http://www.lkw-walter.co.uk.

I have a suspicion that the reason why RFF, the railway infrastructure body in France, is not planning to clear the trunk lines in France to the UIC-C gauge is because SNCF is keen to ensure that piggyback services only employ the 'Lorry Rail' technology of Modalohr, which, of course, it has a monopoly on. See: http://www.lorry-rail.com.

The wagons that Modalohr supply have a deck height of only 22cm - and so they CAN carry 4m-high trailers within the UIC-B+ gauge.

Conventional piggyback wagons on the other hand have a deck height of 27cm. See for example: http://www.aae.ch.

Perhaps it's possible that potential competitors to SNCF can also rent, lease or buy their own Modalohr wagon sets. But these are expensive units, and in any case the wagons require the construction of special terminals.

At least though Barcelona is joining the standard gauge network, which is the important thing.
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Old May 23rd, 2010, 04:38 PM   #856
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from the Spanish forum:
this is the junction of the "old" line and the HSR



the "old" line to the port







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Old May 24th, 2010, 07:18 PM   #857
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Nice photos.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 07:44 PM   #858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by the 'south east line'. If you are referring to the classic 'PLM' rail line between Paris, Lyon and the Mediterranean, then yes, the 'B+' loading gauge only allows for the passage of special low-height piggyback road trailers of around 3.8m or so in height, when using standard piggyback wagons.

The problem is, only a tiny handful of transport operators now invest in these low-height trailers, and these operators are mostly those that have a focus on the Gotthard transport corridor.
Perhaps the best way to get to Germany (that is the target) is via Gotthard tunnel, that would require an upgrade between Lyon and Avignon.
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Old May 24th, 2010, 08:59 PM   #859
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To Germany...from where???
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Old May 25th, 2010, 10:42 AM   #860
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Perhaps the best way to get to Germany (that is the target) is via Gotthard tunnel, that would require an upgrade between Lyon and Avignon.

Coccodrillo, we are to talking about getting to Germany from southern Spain. And vice versa of course.

It's true an intermodal service that runs via Lyon to the Gotthard route could be set up, allowing the operators of the low-height piggyback trailers to use their equipment on this service, and thus preventing the Modalohr technology from gaining a monopoly position.

However, as I say, only a few operators use these low-height trailers, and the fact remains that unless the route is open to 4m-high trailers, most trade that cannot be switched into swap body intermodal units will continue to be 100-per cent road-based.
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