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Old May 25th, 2010, 10:47 AM   #861
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Originally Posted by Andres_Low View Post
Perhaps the best way to get to Germany (that is the target) is via Gotthard tunnel, that would require an upgrade between Lyon and Avignon.
Have a look at a map first... I can't imagine any route from Spain to Germany that makes sense that passes both through the Gotthard tunnel and the old Avignon - Lyon line...
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Old May 25th, 2010, 11:12 AM   #862
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I think he was just thinking about the loading gauge issue, as oppose to finding an ideal route in terms of distance and direction.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #863
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I think he was just thinking about the loading gauge issue, as oppose to finding an ideal route in terms of distance and direction.
Even in this context the remark doesn't make sense.
In order to get from Spain to Germany you don't need to cross the Alps. The current route is Perpignan - Avignon - Lyon - Dijon - Strassbourg. This route has been cleared to P32/P359, so it can accomodate containers and swap bodies on standard cars.
The Gotthard router, once it is finished, will indeed be able to accomodate piggy backing 4m trailers, but to get there you'd have to get to Italy first, and the coastal line to Ventigmiglia only accomodates P22...
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Old May 25th, 2010, 02:05 PM   #864
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It's true an intermodal service that runs via Lyon to the Gotthard route could be set up, allowing the operators of the low-height piggyback trailers to use their equipment on this service, and thus preventing the Modalohr technology from gaining a monopoly position.
And what would the route be then? Lyon - Modane - Torino - Chiasso - Gotthard? Only the problem there is the Mont Cenis tunnel, which has even a more restrictive gauge than the main freight network in France. Currently the most permissive route from Lyon to Germany is via Dijon, Nancy and Strassbourg.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 02:51 PM   #865
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Really? Well there you go, I'm not perfect after all.

For some reason I had thought the route between Lyon and Torino is already up to the P386 standard, so apologies all around.

If the route via Strasbourg is at the P359 standard, then this route is still clearly rubbish from a piggyback perspective.

Interestingly, even upon opening of the new base tunnel, the Gotthard route will still present restrictions because the connecting lines to it are not scheduled to receive the necessary loading gauge upgrade until some time after the actual tunnel is open.

So how does one force RFF to upgrade the French rail network for the greater good of Europe...?
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Old May 25th, 2010, 03:30 PM   #866
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thank you guys for the clarification, its nice to learn something new, It was only for the purpouse of avoiding the use of the monopolist rolling stock and obviously there is many other factors that can fail, getting into the Alps is problematic of course.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 05:44 PM   #867
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Both the Fréjus/Mont Cenis and Gotthard railways will remain at P45/P380 (*) for the time being. The Fréjus line, today P32, will be enlarged to P45, but not more. The P80/P400 loading gauge is yet available on the Lötschberg-Simplon and Brenner lines but, still, not on any line to France.

(*) maybe a little more for the Gotthard but certainly not P400
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Old May 25th, 2010, 06:14 PM   #868
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So in conclusion, anyone wishing to offer services for the 4m-high trailer market in France will need to have access to some Modalohr wagons and some terminals that can handle them...
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Old May 25th, 2010, 06:18 PM   #869
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If the route via Strasbourg is at the P359 standard, then this route is still clearly rubbish from a piggyback perspective.
Given that SNCF manages to transport trailers in Piggyback from Luxemburg to Perpignan I wouldn't say that the route is "rubbish". Anyway, for standard containers or Swap bodies the issue is moot. They fit withint the "passepartout" gauge.

Last edited by K_; May 25th, 2010 at 06:24 PM.
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Old May 25th, 2010, 06:27 PM   #870
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So in conclusion, anyone wishing to offer services for the 4m-high trailer market in France will need to have access to some Modalohr wagons and some terminals that can handle them...
I suppose you could start with a call to Lohr Industries. They make the cars, and I can't see a reason why they wouldn't want to sell you some...
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Old May 25th, 2010, 06:36 PM   #871
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Do bring it back on topic: I wouldn't be surprised to see the "modalohr" trains to Perpignan extended to Barcelona as soon as this is possible. So these might be some of the first freight the new Perpignan - Figueras line sees. Will be interesting to see what kind of train is going to be the first to run on that line. Passenger or freight?
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Old May 25th, 2010, 06:54 PM   #872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Given that SNCF manages to transport trailers in Piggyback from Luxemburg to Perpignan I wouldn't say that the route is "rubbish". Anyway, for standard containers or Swap bodies the issue is moot. They fit withint the "passepartout" gauge.

I will indeed refrain from deviating from the thread topic - just after this one last post.

The routes across France are rubbish in the context of allowing standard rail cars to be in use for 4m-high piggyback trailers. Clearly, as my posts did already say, the Modalohr can cater for this market across the P386 lines, and does indeed already do.

Swap bodies and containers will only ever grab a certain chunk of the domestic European market. To really grab it, the railway has to carry trailers as well, and at the moment only SNCF has access to Modalohr wagons and terminals.

But anyway, back to the HS line is Spain.

How much will it cost to travel between Paris and Barcelona (second class)...?
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Old May 26th, 2010, 03:01 AM   #873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
The routes across France are rubbish in the context of allowing standard rail cars to be in use for 4m-high piggyback trailers. Clearly, as my posts did already say, the Modalohr can cater for this market across the P386 lines, and does indeed already do.
Actually I don't think you can transport 4m high trailers on standard flat cars anywhere in Europe... You always need well cars.

See:

http://www.intermodale24-rail.net/IM...02009%20CM.pdf

Quote:
Swap bodies and containers will only ever grab a certain chunk of the domestic European market. To really grab it, the railway has to carry trailers as well, and at the moment only SNCF has access to Modalohr wagons and terminals.
Containers will never be popular for intra European freight. I do however see far more swap bodies than full trailers on trains through the alps, even on the Lötschberg-Simplon routes, where whole trucks can even be transported.
So it appears that the major logistics firms are willing to use them.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 11:26 AM   #874
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Actually I don't think you can transport 4m high trailers on standard flat cars anywhere in Europe... You always need well cars.

Good grief!!!

By standard rail cars, I obviously meant standard PIGGYBACK rail cars, or pocket wagons, to use the more European term for them. Clearly you can't transport trailers on rail cars not designed to carry them!


Quote:
Containers will never be popular for intra European freight. I do however see far more swap bodies than full trailers on trains through the alps, even on the Lötschberg-Simplon routes, where whole trucks can even be transported.
So it appears that the major logistics firms are willing to use them.

Your analysis is too simplistic and is not really true.

On trans-Alpine trains, the composition of trailers verses containers/swap bodies/swap tanks varies depending in large part on the origin and destination points of the trains.

Many of the trains catering for the Scandinavian market, for example, serving such terminals as Lubeck, Rostock and Taulov, carry high proportions of trailers, and in some cases only trailers.

The same goes for some trains operating from some terminals in Germany, such as those in Hamburg (Billwerder) and Nurnburg.

Also, there are some logistics companies which operate mixed fleets of swap bodies and piggyback trailers, while some operate only piggyback trailers, and some only swap bodies.

As for containers, bare in mind there are two types of container - the ISO unit designed with imperial measurements and meant for use by the maritime shipping industry, and the domestic-European unit, designed with metric measurements.

Certainly the ISO units play an insignificant role in intra-European trade. On the other hand the domestic European containers both compliment and compete with road trailers across various corridors.

Many of the trans-Alpine intermodal trains serving the Benelux market, for example, carry a high proportion of domestic European containers.

But anyway, this issue is not exactly 'on topic', so, erm, how much do you people think it will cost for second class ticket between Paris and Barcelona?

(Naturally I'm referring to the era when the new HS line is open, just in case anyone thinks that I'm talking about the present day).

Last edited by TedStriker; May 26th, 2010 at 11:44 AM.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 04:20 PM   #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post

But anyway, this issue is not exactly 'on topic', so, erm, how much do you people think it will cost for second class ticket between Paris and Barcelona?

(Naturally I'm referring to the era when the new HS line is open, just in case anyone thinks that I'm talking about the present day).
I would say an average price of 150€ BCN-Paris standard return ticket without considering online deals. That is what I would pay, up to 200€, above that I would start considering fly as the best option.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 04:57 PM   #876
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I'm looking forward to the journey. I've done the Paris-Nice trip a few times, so this will be a nice change.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 10:33 AM   #877
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Sorry, this post is not about the HS line in Spain, but as there seem to be some people here who know about piggyback intermodal operations in Europe, I thought I'd just make them aware of this little development: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...dal-shift.html.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 11:01 AM   #878
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
Sorry, this post is not about the HS line in Spain, but as there seem to be some people here who know about piggyback intermodal operations in Europe, I thought I'd just make them aware of this little development: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...dal-shift.html.
Maybe we should split the topic off. How do we do that?

Anyway this system looks very interesting. The advantage of systems like that is that you can serve a lot of locations with one train...

Btw, there already exists an intermodal service between Barcelona and Northern Italy. Wouldn't be suprised if that's going to be the first train running over the Perignan - Figueras line once that is connected...
Jsut to bring it moderatley on topic again...
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Old May 28th, 2010, 11:46 AM   #879
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LOL. I agree. Plus I think I got to into the analysis of it all anyway. Barcelona is not that far from Perpignan, so really, I would expect the main intermodal traffic to be using the new HS line to be shipping containers to-and-from the port itself, as oppose to domestic European traffic.

I think a standard gauge link to Valencia will be necessary to enable intermodal to really grow a larger market share of the southern Spain cargo market.

But back to topic...
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Old May 28th, 2010, 12:04 PM   #880
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LOL. I agree. Plus I think I got to into the analysis of it all anyway. Barcelona is not that far from Perpignan, so really, I would expect the main intermodal traffic to be using the new HS line to be shipping containers to-and-from the port itself, as oppose to domestic European traffic.
I don't think so. Containers landed in Barcelona will be for Spanish customers mostly. there is no reason for a customer in Germany to have a container from China land in Spain. These containers will continue to be delivered to Hamburg or one of the Delta ports.
The big market for intermodal traffic to/from Spain is for intra EU traffic. Lots of agricultural products now travel all the way from Spain to Germany (and other places) by truck. Getting that on the rails would be a good thing.
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