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Old June 20th, 2010, 11:21 AM   #901
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The price of comfortable cabins (not couchettes where you share space with strangers, something that will not get a grip with high-income costumers) is way too high anyway. The lure of € 80 MAD-FRA flights will preclude any viable train service in the route.
There are people who travel across europe in overnight buses. Sure these people could be tempted to do the trip in a couchette. However, on most existing night trains it's the double cabins that sell out first. So it appears that there is still a demand for it, there is still a market. After all, the only thing that brings you to Zürich in time for a 9AM meeting is the night train...
And wait till oil hits 200$ a barrel or more, and see how many 80€ FRA-MAD flights you'll see offered.

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If people don't travel anymore in significant number in night trains on shorter routes, why would them travel in longer distance routes? The marginal time advantage of plane is even higher for those long-distance (train) routes compared to short-haul flights, as the proportion of fixes time used in security and check-in at airports is essentially the same.
The trains that recently were cut were all quite popular. They were cut for one of two reasons:
- The operating railways want to force their customers on high speed trains. (France and Belgium are a good example)
- The operating companies are incompetent. (Italy)

A competent railway like DB aparently stil an make money on night trains. They even expanded quite heavily in to the Netherlands recently, one of the few countries that is quite open to foreign operators.

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So I highly doubt night-trains, cost-inefficient as they are (if they were to compete with hotels in comfort with single en-suites with private bathrooms albeit small), will have a comeback in Europe.
I think that on the routes to/from the Spanish coast there would be a very nice market. Maybe not for a daily train. But consider that a lot of pensioners from northern parts of Europe spend the winter there. A train allows you to take with you a lot more luggage than a plane, which is a major advantage when you're going to Spain for three months. Make it a motorrail service and it will even be more popular. Pensioners have time, so getting there as fast as possible is not a big issue.
So a train from points in northwestern Europe, that goes directly to Barcelona and then follows the coast south, ending in Alicante might have market.

Last edited by K_; June 20th, 2010 at 06:29 PM.
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Old June 20th, 2010, 01:38 PM   #902
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Freight trains will use the tunnel in Girona, or will have a surface route outside the city? The existing railway viaduct and station will be replaced by the tunnel (that would be double gauge) or will be maintained?

Thanks in advance
The viaduct was supposed to be replaced by a tunnel, now it has been put on hold. So for some years the city will have both the HSR tunnel and the viaduct with their corresponding trainstations. Until the HSR tunnel is finished, freight trains will use the viaduct. There are no plans to construct a by-pass around Girona.
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Old June 21st, 2010, 12:19 AM   #903
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I hope that this time, my post is not out of date

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Old June 21st, 2010, 08:47 PM   #904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

The price of comfortable cabins (not couchettes where you share space with strangers, something that will not get a grip with high-income costumers) is way too high anyway. The lure of € 80 MAD-FRA flights will preclude any viable train service in the route.

I believe new formulas will be invented since the HSR mania started in western Europe. Like high capacity trains are being designed to offer low cost seats also could offer low cost cabins. Who knows, in rail bussines boosting the offer increase the demand.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 12:21 AM   #905
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Who knows, in rail bussines boosting the offer increase the demand.
That might be the case with regional or metropolitan services. As for long-distance travel (like Madrid-Frankfurt), I don't think that boosting offer would attract a crowd right away (almost nobody drives in this route, almost everyone takes a 70min flight).

Still, I think that - as you said - new business models might emerge emulating what happens with air traffic, particularly if true competition on HSR ensures.

For instance, they could try 2+3 seat arrangement with a smaller pitch (distance to the seat in front of you) in some cars and sell them as a sort of 3rd class.

Then you could have 1000 pax train sets.

In France they have the iTGV, which seems to be doing fairly well. They sell tickets only through the Internet, which are usually non-refundable and non-exchangeable.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 07:54 AM   #906
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That might be the case with regional or metropolitan services. As for long-distance travel (like Madrid-Frankfurt), I don't think that boosting offer would attract a crowd right away (almost nobody drives in this route, almost everyone takes a 70min flight).
Don't say that to fast. I wouldn't be surprised if more people actually did drive that rather then fly. There are even thousands who travel from Germany to Spain every summer in buses.
The car is still the most common mode of going on holiday in Europe. That's the competition.

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For instance, they could try 2+3 seat arrangement with a smaller pitch (distance to the seat in front of you) in some cars and sell them as a sort of 3rd class.

Then you could have 1000 pax train sets.
1000 pax trainsets already exist. And you don't need 2+3 seat arrangements for them....
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Old June 30th, 2010, 09:56 AM   #907
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Yesterday, the new AVE trains (Renfe AVE new series S112) for the corridor Madrid-Valencia were presented to the press (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/0...277794888.html and http://www.lasprovincias.es/20100629...006291125.html). They will begin commercial runs at the end of the year.
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Old June 30th, 2010, 05:50 PM   #908
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I just came across this article in english, video is in spanish though.

how did Talgo manage to get over 50 seats more? They got rid of "clase preferente"?

http://en.lacerca.com/news/castilla_...d-64643-1.html
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Old June 30th, 2010, 07:48 PM   #909
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There are only the Club and Turista classes (1st and 3rd).
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Old June 30th, 2010, 11:55 PM   #910
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Hope there´s room enough for luggage such as beach balls and umbrellas in summer season
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Old July 1st, 2010, 02:01 AM   #911
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They should limit luggage for train passenger like Eurostar does. 2 pieces per paying adult + what you can hold in your lap.
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Old July 1st, 2010, 09:23 AM   #912
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I take the train instead of airplanes exactly because railways are less paranoic.
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Old July 11th, 2010, 05:06 PM   #913
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Quote:
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They should limit luggage for train passenger like Eurostar does. 2 pieces per paying adult + what you can hold in your lap.
Why? you don´t wanna pay for every extra kilo like if it was a cheap airline... do you? Long distance is limited already but it is pretty flexible.

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Old July 12th, 2010, 01:26 PM   #914
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Why? you don´t wanna pay for every extra kilo like if it was a cheap airline... do you? Long distance is limited already but it is pretty flexible.
I proposed a reasonable piece limit, just to avoid the kind of abuse I've seen once: a student carrying two bags, one guitar, a surfboard and something else abroad a high-speed train and literally forcing whomever was sited at her side/in front of her to give up their reserved seats and find other seats because the girl could barely handle all her stuff.

Just that. I'm not suggesting weighting bags, just curbing the number of them and forbidding oversize things.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 12:01 AM   #915
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To get this thread on track, here are some timelapses from the construction of the HSR line through Barcelona, this is a rather massive construction site with several construction projects under way simultaneously.

The first and second one are from february 2009





The third one is from april and may 2009



The fourth one is from july 2009



This one is a compilation from the whole 2009.



An the final one is from april and may 2010



More of the same can be found at the official website for this construction project, just go to multimedia and use the magnifier.

http://www.barcelonasagrera.com/default.asp

Last edited by gincan; July 16th, 2010 at 12:25 AM.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 01:53 AM   #916
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I've always wondered if it was possible to built a high speed train capable of hauling containerized freight. I suppose it wouldn't be economical otherwise it would be done already.

But for some specialty cargo like time-sensitive packages or fresh produce could it work? I'm sure there's some wealthy European country looking to increase its "green" cred and subsidize such a thing even if it runs at a huge loss.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 10:59 AM   #917
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It is nearly impossible to alternate high speed (300 km/h) and freight (100 km/h) on the same line at the same moment, but on a few HS lines in Italy and Germany freight trains run at night. But this require an expensive ifnrastructure: HSL need to be straight, but can have steep gradients (up to 4%), instead freight lines may be curvy, but must be as flat as possible (if possible no more than 1,2%). A mixed line has to be both straight and with low gradients. Running light freight trains at 300 km/h would be possible but very expensive.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 02:06 PM   #918
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Quote:
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It is nearly impossible to alternate high speed (300 km/h) and freight (100 km/h) on the same line at the same moment, but on a few HS lines in Italy and Germany freight trains run at night. But this require an expensive ifnrastructure: HSL need to be straight, but can have steep gradients (up to 4%), instead freight lines may be curvy, but must be as flat as possible (if possible no more than 1,2%). A mixed line has to be both straight and with low gradients. Running light freight trains at 300 km/h would be possible but very expensive.
France has TGV Le Poste. Obviously more expensive than slow freight trains (low axle loads and high power), but probably cheaper than air mail.

How is loading and unloading in intermediate stops handled? And can fresh produce be mailed by TGV?
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Old July 16th, 2010, 02:47 PM   #919
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Only express mail can afford the cost of high speed trains.

Freight like perishable products (fruit, food) can travel on traditional railways. There are already services like Murcia (Spain)-London.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 06:29 PM   #920
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
I've always wondered if it was possible to built a high speed train capable of hauling containerized freight. I suppose it wouldn't be economical otherwise it would be done already.

But for some specialty cargo like time-sensitive packages or fresh produce could it work? I'm sure there's some wealthy European country looking to increase its "green" cred and subsidize such a thing even if it runs at a huge loss.
Somebody (somehow) seems to agree....
Check this out http://www.eurocarex.com/
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