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Old July 31st, 2010, 01:25 AM   #921
Palatinus
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Is there any updated map about HSR in Spain and future project? (if possibile also with speed line)
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Old July 31st, 2010, 11:28 PM   #922
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Spanish network

Max speed:

[IMG=http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/7282/maxspeedspanishrail.jpg][/IMG]



Distances:

[IMG=http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3057/distancesspanishrailnet.jpg][/IMG][/QUOTE]
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 10:48 AM   #923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I proposed a reasonable piece limit, just to avoid the kind of abuse I've seen once: a student carrying two bags, one guitar, a surfboard and something else abroad a high-speed train and literally forcing whomever was sited at her side/in front of her to give up their reserved seats and find other seats because the girl could barely handle all her stuff.

Just that. I'm not suggesting weighting bags, just curbing the number of them and forbidding oversize things.
You just have to limit luggage to "carry on only", with "carry on" defined as "whatever you can carry." If you can carry it, the train will carry it... :-)

Should limit the worst abuses.
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Old August 2nd, 2010, 10:53 AM   #924
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
France has TGV Le Poste. Obviously more expensive than slow freight trains (low axle loads and high power), but probably cheaper than air mail.
Probably also cheaper than running an empty TGV to test the tracks before regular service commences...

Quote:
How is loading and unloading in intermediate stops handled? And can fresh produce be mailed by TGV?
They don't do any loading/unloading at intermediate stops.
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Old August 6th, 2010, 09:06 PM   #925
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Two pictures from urbanity.es made by "Matraco"
http://www.urbanity.es/foro/infraest...na-ii-160.html




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Old August 6th, 2010, 11:08 PM   #926
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Those maps ranging from 2012 to 2020 are not realistic anymore, under the current economic reality the openings of various lines will be pushed back up to 5 and even 10 years. They are still being built but at a much slower pace.

For example, the HSR between Madrid and Galicia that according to that map should be finished by 2015 will now under the best conditions open sometime during the 2020-2025 timespan.

Another line that will be heavily delayed is the Seville-Granada line, instead of opening 2013-2014 it will now probably not open before 2020.
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Old August 8th, 2010, 11:12 PM   #927
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Great progress maps, I really like to see what has been done and whats to come.

Gincan we all know that a those dates are delusional, specially looking as far as 2020 but on the other hand your predictions seem too pessimistic. What tells you what is going to be the budget in 5 years time? things will get better right? (I am optimistic)

what is more, there is no oficial statement about delayedstretches and openings, nobody know what is going to happen exactly.
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Old August 9th, 2010, 05:37 AM   #928
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very cool maps, nice job
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Old August 10th, 2010, 08:45 PM   #929
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I find that there must have more lines that connect Spain with France. So that tourist from France, Italy, Belgium, Germeny etc can go easily to Spain by train.
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Old August 10th, 2010, 09:12 PM   #930
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I find that there must have more lines that connect Spain with France. So that tourist from France, Italy, Belgium, Germeny etc can go easily to Spain by train.
No way! It is too far! Even if it existed a high-speed connection all the way up, including treacherous one Alpine base tunnel, it would take 12 hours for a Roma-Madrid journey. That is too much, a flight takes less than 2.
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Old August 13th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #931
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Originally Posted by Hopobcn View Post
...
Great maps, and great overview. Spain will soon have a better HSR network than Germany
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Old August 16th, 2010, 02:01 AM   #932
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No way! It is too far! Even if it existed a high-speed connection all the way up, including treacherous one Alpine base tunnel, it would take 12 hours for a Roma-Madrid journey. That is too much, a flight takes less than 2.
Geneva, Lyon, Milan, Marseille and Bern are all under 750km from Barcelona and the Costa Brava, and under a thousand km from those cities to the Basque country, Aragon, Costa Daurada, PortAventura and the Northern coast of Valencia (Castellon). All these places are major tourist destinations and, theoretically, can be reached in around 4hrs by a direct HS train.

You have to remember that when talking about the journey the most important thing (after price most likely) is the total door-to-door journey (followed by ease and comfort). It's all very well saying a flight is 90mins, but if it takes an equal amount fo time to get from your base to the airport, then from the airport to your destintion, plus adding in waiting time at the airport, you can be looking at a total time of over 7hrs

To give a recent example, I've done London/Den Haag 3 times in the past month (twice by plane and once by bus/coach). Despite being probably the shortest flight ever at around 50mins, the door-to-door time was 5.30mins. Also bear in mind that, a) I checked in online, meaning I only got to the airport an hour before the flight time rather than the recommend 90mins; and b) in London I flew from Luton which is probably the quickest airport for me to get to (walk to the tube station, get off after just 5 stops, walk for a couple of mins to the thameslink [sbahn type service] station and hop on train that takes about 45mins). In Den Haag, my flat is just 5 mins from Holland Spoor station, which takes about 35mins to Schiphol, which itself is directly under the main building!

In other words, you can't get an easier and shorter journey, yet it still took close to a quarter of a day. What if I flew from Standstad? Had to check luggage? Lived in the north west part of Den Haag? My flight was delayed? You could be talking another 90mins added to my journey.
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Old August 16th, 2010, 08:54 AM   #933
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
No way! It is too far! Even if it existed a high-speed connection all the way up, including treacherous one Alpine base tunnel, it would take 12 hours for a Roma-Madrid journey. That is too much, a flight takes less than 2.
There are people who will take the train though. People who are not in a hurry, or just don't like flying, or realize that getting from A to B will consume much of a day anyway, so you can as well enjoy it.
People with lots of luggage. Big people. Tall people...
People who want to consume nuclear energy rather than subsidize fundamentalist islam.

And don't forget that oil prices will go up. So far we haven't found a way to run planes on nuclear power.
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Old August 16th, 2010, 11:39 AM   #934
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Originally Posted by Andres_Low View Post
Great progress maps, I really like to see what has been done and whats to come.

Gincan we all know that a those dates are delusional, specially looking as far as 2020 but on the other hand your predictions seem too pessimistic. What tells you what is going to be the budget in 5 years time? things will get better right? (I am optimistic)

what is more, there is no oficial statement about delayedstretches and openings, nobody know what is going to happen exactly.
2012 the upcoming election will take place, there is a good chance that PP will win that election and like any right-wing party they prefer to construct motorways over railways.

I forsee that if PP win the election we will go back to the motorway bonaza of the last PP rule and railway investments will lag behind. Remember how they handled the Madrid-Barcelona railway for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
No way! It is too far! Even if it existed a high-speed connection all the way up, including treacherous one Alpine base tunnel, it would take 12 hours for a Roma-Madrid journey. That is too much, a flight takes less than 2.
By the time there is HSR in place between Roma and Madrid, airline tickets might be so expensive that normal people simply can't afford them or the railway option will be considerably more affordable.

Last edited by gincan; August 16th, 2010 at 11:56 AM.
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Old August 16th, 2010, 06:33 PM   #935
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Originally Posted by kerouac1848 View Post

You have to remember that when talking about the journey the most important thing (after price most likely) is the total door-to-door journey (followed by ease and comfort). It's all very well saying a flight is 90mins, but if it takes an equal amount fo time to get from your base to the airport, then from the airport to your destintion, plus adding in waiting time at the airport, you can be looking at a total time of over 7hrs

To give a recent example, I've done London/Den Haag 3 times in the past month (twice by plane and once by bus/coach). Despite being probably the shortest flight ever at around 50mins, the door-to-door time was 5.30mins. Also bear in mind that, a) I checked in online, meaning I only got to the airport an hour before the flight time rather than the recommend 90mins; and b) in London I flew from Luton which is probably the quickest airport for me to get to (walk to the tube station, get off after just 5 stops, walk for a couple of mins to the thameslink [sbahn type service] station and hop on train that takes about 45mins). In Den Haag, my flat is just 5 mins from Holland Spoor station, which takes about 35mins to Schiphol, which itself is directly under the main building!

In other words, you can't get an easier and shorter journey, yet it still took close to a quarter of a day. What if I flew from Standstad? Had to check luggage? Lived in the north west part of Den Haag? My flight was delayed? You could be talking another 90mins added to my journey.
And that is door-to-door time.

What about door-to-bed? Door-to-out-of-bed? The 7 hours spent on a short flight cannot be used for sleeping.

Say you want to be at your destination 9:00 in the morning. You cannot get there by morning plane (that would mean leaving home at 2:00 or 3:30), so you need to spend hotel night at destination. Leave hotel at say 8:30, get up at 7:30 and have breakfast. What time do you need to depart to get to destination at a reasonable time, eat supper and sleep full night in the hotel?

Whereas 12 hours on train would comfortably allow for supper, full nights sleep and breakfast.

Problem: the existing sleeper trains are slow.

Are any high speed sleepers under construction?
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Old August 16th, 2010, 07:15 PM   #936
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Night high-speed trains are wishful thinking, the daytime ones are being cut/scrapped each timetable change.

And even those night trains that exist are far more expensive than flying. Travelling in a private trains compartment is utterly expensive, and travelling on a train seat overnight worse than travel two hours on a plane.

The error with this "usefulness of train travel time" is to conveniently forget that the only "wasted" time is that actually spend on board on a coach seat. In the airport, you can work with plenty of space. If you have access to VIP rooms, that is even easier.

A night-train is far less physically stable than a cruising plane.

Again, you can never compare 10 hours in a night train with 10 hours in a plane, because a plane would take AT MOST 2,5 hours to cover the distance a night HIGH SPEED train would take 10.

Night trains are a relic posed to near-extinction. And this is not my say, it is the say of Western European timetables over the last 15 years.

In Italy, there is a talk of cutting the remaining night-trains but 3 linking Sicily with Napoli, Roma and Milano. In 1993, there were 18 domestic nigh-train services in Italy.

Finally, most HSL are operated with shut-down times to allow free maintenance access, like most subway systems. It allows far greater reliability on 18-20 hours per day and cut traffic altogether for 4-6 hours, so there is barely any disruption or rerouting for regular maintenance.

If you were to run trains overnight on HSL, you would have to keep the tracks opened, which cost a lot in terms of extra staffing, monitoring and so for 1 or 2 overnight trains. Italy is an exception, its HSL were designed to cope with fast light-freight traffic overnight (more axis load, tunnels fit to traffic of hazardous cargo and so). Infra-structur cost 20-25% more to allow for freight on HSL. However, there is no fast light-freight services operating in Italy yet AFAIK.

In any case, there are not any long-distance services that could run solely on HS tracks. Spain is not connected to HSL in France, tracks to/from Italy are shamefully slow (Frejus, Domodossola, Lugano, Brennero).

As for oil prices, that is another discussion. I do think we should invest billions to find a suitable biofuel for aviation as a "hedge" of the aviation business in case oil spikes. I say that because in Europe (North America situation is different), the TOTAL tax burden on fuel is usually above 70%, sometimes almost 80%. So, in case of oil prices triple, a change on taxation could easy its impacts on car mobility. Aviation fuel, on the other hand, is almost tax-free (air tickets are not). So is oil reaches US$ 250/barrel, the aviation industry will have a HUGE problem do deal with. Long distance routes would see a decrease in traffic, but not that much (there is no viable alternative, and transoceanic travel is usually already more expensive and people would still pay € 2000 instead of € 800 to travel from Europe to North America). Short haul flights, and particular low-cost carriers that have built their business models drawing more passengers who started travelling more frequent.

Still, you can't have an overland high-speed train connection from London to Barcelona costing only 40 round-trip to allow the average college kid to fly south for weekend away for the price of a club entrance fee.
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Old August 16th, 2010, 08:35 PM   #937
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Night high-speed trains are wishful thinking, the daytime ones are being cut/scrapped each timetable change.
Trends aren't permanent. The problem with night trains is they're expensive and have quite poor PR; that is, they are seen as something for backpackers, old people and train enthusiasts. Personally, I think the market for them is theoretically huge if they can sort out those two big issues (cost and marketing)

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The error with this "usefulness of train travel time" is to conveniently forget that the only "wasted" time is that actually spend on board on a coach seat. In the airport, you can work with plenty of space. If you have access to VIP rooms, that is even easier.
You're forgetting that the time spent just seating in an airport waiting lounge is a fraction of the overall journey time, whereas the time on a train is likely to be the majority of that type of journey. Most of the time spent when traveling by plane is getting to and from the airport (which for budget airlines like Ryanair is taking up more and more time as they choose cheaper places further away - e.g. Stansted, Girona, Eindhoven). Then there is checking in, going through customs, that bit where you hang around to board the plane, going through immigration, then waiting around to collect luggage, before getting to your destination.

Anyway, this is all largely academic. The most important factor is price. Eurostar only started to get good passenger numbers when their cheapest ticket was no longer 100; HS1 just boosted a trajectory that had already started going up. If competition on inter-Europe train journeys leads to lower prices that will do more to hurt short-haul flights than anything else. The fact that buses from London to Paris, Amsterdam, Germany, etc are still packed shows you what people will take in order to save 30 euros.

(which reminds me, I've noticed that the total price for flights of even cheap airlines such as easyjet are often 4 times or more than the headline price. For example, a 15 flight doubles if you have to check in baggage, followed by a 6 fee for using your credit card [and maybe a booking fee]. If it is Ryanair you then have to add again if you don't check-in online. finally, there is heavy cost of getting to the airports. A cheap non-peak single to Luton from NW London cost 12; around 14.50 from the centre. There are just so many hidden costs with flying now)
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Old August 16th, 2010, 08:46 PM   #938
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
As for oil prices, that is another discussion. I do think we should invest billions to find a suitable biofuel for aviation as a "hedge" of the aviation business in case oil spikes. I say that because in Europe (North America situation is different), the TOTAL tax burden on fuel is usually above 70%, sometimes almost 80%. So, in case of oil prices triple, a change on taxation could easy its impacts on car mobility. Aviation fuel, on the other hand, is almost tax-free (air tickets are not). So is oil reaches US$ 250/barrel, the aviation industry will have a HUGE problem do deal with. Long distance routes would see a decrease in traffic, but not that much (there is no viable alternative, and transoceanic travel is usually already more expensive and people would still pay 2000 instead of 800 to travel from Europe to North America). Short haul flights, and particular low-cost carriers that have built their business models drawing more passengers who started travelling more frequent.

Still, you can't have an overland high-speed train connection from London to Barcelona costing only 40 round-trip to allow the average college kid to fly south for weekend away for the price of a club entrance fee.
LOL, at 140$ per barrel 2 years ago, every single airline in the world was only a few months and even weeks away from default. At 250$ per barrel your are looking at a handful of state owned carriers remaining from the ashes of the airline industri, all heavily subsidised with ticket prices completely out of range from anyone exept for executives.

And forget about driving at will when gasoline will be rationed if there is any, owning an electric car will be the only way to be sure of personal mobility.
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Old August 16th, 2010, 11:31 PM   #939
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And that is door-to-door time.

What about door-to-bed? Door-to-out-of-bed? The 7 hours spent on a short flight cannot be used for sleeping.

Say you want to be at your destination 9:00 in the morning. You cannot get there by morning plane (that would mean leaving home at 2:00 or 3:30), so you need to spend hotel night at destination. Leave hotel at say 8:30, get up at 7:30 and have breakfast. What time do you need to depart to get to destination at a reasonable time, eat supper and sleep full night in the hotel?
That is exactly the reason why there are still so many night trains to Zrich. They all arrive there before the first convenient morning flights.
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Old August 16th, 2010, 11:42 PM   #940
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LOL, at 140$ per barrel 2 years ago, every single airline in the world was only a few months and even weeks away from default. At 250$ per barrel your are looking at a handful of state owned carriers remaining from the ashes of the airline industri, all heavily subsidised with ticket prices completely out of range from anyone exept for executives.
Don't forget that the airline industry as a whole has never turned a profit.
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