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Old September 16th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuartango View Post
Spain has no train culture comparing with other european countries, because of the old railway system we are used to. We need at least 10 years to adjust to the new HSLines (also to finish most parts of them, like Madrid-Valencia this year and Madrid-North Spain in five years).

Despite the most powerful connection (Madrid-Barcelona) is still very new, it is a big success and it will be more.
Spanish HSLs are a good project (at least msot of them), what I wanted to say is that they are really expensive for the traffic they have, at least now. Maybe decreasing ticket fares to attract more apssenegrs would be a good idea.

Another thing that Spain (and Portugal) should do as soon as possible is the conversion of the main network to standard gauge.
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Old September 17th, 2010, 01:21 PM   #962
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Coordinated scehdules assumes that everybody using the public transit systems needs to use it so it accommodates every user's needs.
Please don't invent things that aren't correct.

Coordinated schedules just want to optimise the travel time by not wasting time at stations waiting for another train.
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Old September 17th, 2010, 02:05 PM   #963
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Another thing that Spain (and Portugal) should do as soon as possible is the conversion of the main network to standard gauge.
I would have preferred a TGV connection between Madrid and Barcelona, Barcelona and Valencia, Madrid and Bilbao, Madrid and Lisboa, and then from Barcelona and Bilbao towards France. And that's it, there is no need for more high speed railway, it's too expensive for the demand there can be in all the other corridors. And instead of building such an expensive railway, it'd have been better to spend that money in converting all the network to standard gauge. But now it's too late, and I don't think it's worth anymore to convert all the network, what for? there will be standard-gauge railways going to every province in the country and it obviously won't be exclusively used by passanger trains, as there is not enough demand for that, and there is no problem to have a separate network for suburban trains, after all they don't need to reach the rest of Europe and their infrastructure is way too saturated to let international trains in.
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Old September 17th, 2010, 03:16 PM   #964
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Spanish HSL are nearly all dedicated to passenger traffic, none of the new radial lines are designed for freight traffic, except the Barcelona-France part and maybe the Madrid-Lisbon line. The few surviving freight trains will continue to run on the existing lines, thats why they should be converted to standard gauge.
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Old September 17th, 2010, 03:41 PM   #965
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Basically, some standard gauge rails in the North (Euskera and Catalunya) would be enough to cover most of Spains industrial capacity producing most of its export. That could be done by three-rail lines (how the heck do you translate "Dreischienengleis" in English?), too. The rest of the network (and the roads, too) is way less important in terms of international cargo volume.
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Old September 17th, 2010, 04:48 PM   #966
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I would translate "Dreischienengleis" with "dual gauge tack".

As high speed lines are completely segregated from traditional network, and as most cercanias services are either quite segregated (Madrid) or with low number of trains (the other lines, except Barcelona), I don't see problems converting all other lines to stantard gauge. As they have a very low number of trains, disruption to traffic would be limited.
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Old September 17th, 2010, 05:14 PM   #967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Coordinated scehdules assumes that everybody using the public transit systems needs to use it so it accommodates every user's needs.
Coordinated schedules follow from the assumption that to make money you have to provide value. A coordinated schedule has more value to your customers than an uncoordinated one. It's basic "business 101" that you need to start by providing enough value if you want to turn a profit.

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However, in France, Spain and Italy they just set up a system that will incentive some people to do their journeys by car.
I a brewer would brew a beer that would "incentive some drinkers to switch to other brands" this would not be considered a feature by the management. They would consider it a problem. That applies to every provider of a service or good. Nobody likes to turn away customers.
In France the railways are progressively going to a coordinated schedule. RFF is basically forcing this, as it allows a lot of savings to be made in infrastructure. The end result is lower costs and higher value. Again, business 101...
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Old September 17th, 2010, 06:42 PM   #968
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Nobody likes to turn away customers.
Except Trenitalia and Thalys, as far I know.
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Old September 18th, 2010, 06:19 PM   #969
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Coordinated scehdules assumes that everybody using the public transit systems needs to use it so it accommodates every user's needs.
You might want to do some studying of what economists call network effects.
In short, the utility of a product depends heavily on complementary products. The utility of a train (average for the whole customer base) connection therefore rises exponentially with coordinated schedules because it cuts travel time in case you have to change trains. If you don't have to, you still can rely on regular services which rises utility as well.
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Old September 18th, 2010, 07:49 PM   #970
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Originally Posted by Hopobcn View Post
Two pictures from urbanity.es made by "Matraco"
http://www.urbanity.es/foro/infraest...na-ii-160.html




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Originally Posted by Andres_Low View Post
I don't understand Algéciras difference between those 2 maps.

Is Algéciras be integrated to HST ? If yes, when ?

What meand "otras lineas integrado del plan estrategico" ? Does it means that a standar spacing line will be constructed.

Is there a costal line between Algéciras and Cadix and Algéciras and Malaga that could be taken by HST before building a HSL ?
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Old September 18th, 2010, 07:49 PM   #971
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There are strong network effects in transport, but I oppose the gov't centralizing the schedule planning as a mean to promote it.

I look for airlines: they obviously benefit from network effects, reason by which they enter alliances, code-shares and so. Yet, it is something done PRIVATELY (or at least it has been so since the late 80's/early 90's), by companies, under watch of anti-cartel authorities and so.

The liberalization of air transport, indeed, provided a good example of how deregulation of schedules and fares is beneficial to most users: fares are lower in real term then they were 30 years ago, and companies keep cutting frills in name of low prices so more people can fly.

I have nothing against competing rail companies setting up schemes to allow connections between two rival trains. My fierce opposition is to have someone from GOVERNMENT to sit down and decide by her/himself that a train must leave Berlin to Hamburg every hour and stop at a/b/c and not c/d/e.

THIS is the "statism" I'm against. Let the market operate alone. Let the gov't build tracks and stations, and then auction paths and then let's see what happens.
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Old September 18th, 2010, 09:25 PM   #972
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Quote:
I don't understand Algéciras difference between those 2 maps.
The first show new high speed lines and upgraded old lines, however the dates are completely wrong.

Quote:
Is Algéciras be integrated to HST ? If yes, when ?
I'm not aware of any project (maybe a Spanish know more).

Quote:
What meand "otras lineas integrado del plan estrategico" ? Does it means that a standar spacing line will be constructed.
All these lines already exist, but it is planned they will be upgraded in some way (electrified, double tracked, ...).

Quote:
Is there a costal line between Algéciras and Cadix and Algéciras and Malaga that could be taken by HST before building a HSL ?
There were a single track railway between Murcia (exactly from Almendricos) and a point (Guadix) between Granada and the coast (Almería). This railway is now closed, but tracks are still present here and there, the trackbed is also probably still in place (but not everywhere).
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Old September 18th, 2010, 10:07 PM   #973
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I guess if Algeciras is getting mentioned here and there it has to do with the proposed railway tunnel to Morocco.
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Old September 18th, 2010, 10:29 PM   #974
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How much freight does Morocco export to Europe? As there are no interconnected railways south of Morocco-Algeria-Tunisia a tunnel cannot attract traffic from there (if there is any relevant).
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Old September 19th, 2010, 12:14 AM   #975
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I don't believe they'll ever build that tunnel. Firstly, they do not have the money, and secondly they do not have the political will.
The Spanish goverment won't probably finish the Madrid -Norther Spain line earlier than 2014 because all the infrustructure project are being halted to curb the deficit.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 03:09 AM   #976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
I guess if Algeciras is getting mentioned here and there it has to do with the proposed railway tunnel to Morocco.
You're right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
How much freight does Morocco export to Europe? As there are no interconnected railways south of Morocco-Algeria-Tunisia a tunnel cannot attract traffic from there (if there is any relevant).


Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhumphrey View Post
I don't believe they'll ever build that tunnel. Firstly, they do not have the money, and secondly they do not have the political will.
The Spanish goverment won't probably finish the Madrid -Norther Spain line earlier than 2014 because all the infrustructure project are being halted to curb the deficit.
Word Bank, UE, Arab Found and of course Spain and Morocco will pay for that.

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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The first show new high speed lines and upgraded old lines, however the dates are completely wrong.



I'm not aware of any project (maybe a Spanish know more).



All these lines already exist, but it is planned they will be upgraded in some way (electrified, double tracked, ...).



There were a single track railway between Murcia (exactly from Almendricos) and a point (Guadix) between Granada and the coast (Almería). This railway is now closed, but tracks are still present here and there, the trackbed is also probably still in place (but not everywhere).
According to this map and figures, we can see the HST projetc around Algéciras and the good trafics projected (8 millions tons not very much)









I opened a new thread to discuss of that MOROCCO - SPAIN | Gibraltar Tunnel | Project
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Old September 19th, 2010, 05:02 AM   #977
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That must be the plan for the year 3000...
There is no serious plan at all to build such tunnel.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 12:33 PM   #978
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no money either..it is not a priority for spain at the moment...and i doubt it will be in the coming years.....
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Old September 19th, 2010, 01:53 PM   #979
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I also think that for geopolitical reasons is good not to have such tunnel so fast. It could foster aspirations of more economic and political integration of Morocco in EU, something I prefer to let in the back burner.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 09:19 PM   #980
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If I see the profile and the deepest point of the tunnel will be around 400m below sea level, then everybody will acknowledge this isn't just a copy of the Channel tunnel, but something very different. (and thus far more costly)
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