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Old December 21st, 2010, 02:55 AM   #1081
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
There may be, but as trains are often too expensive a lot of people still use the road (car or bus) or the air. After a depense of billions it would be more honest to allow also poorer people to use the train...
Renfe should be allowed to charge whatever fare scheme that yields maximum profits on their purse. In these lean fiscal times, that should be the priority. Other philosophy of some railways used to be set fares to break even, thus maximizing ridership without incurring in losses, but in times of fiscal crisis, maximized income, not ridership, should be the priority.

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Anyway there is a certain number of underused infrastructures in Spain...like a new motorway with 2.000 vehicles per day (AP7 Cartaena-Almeria, that's my favourite example - usually a motorway isn't justified for less than 20.000 vehicles).
There is no simple threshold to say that a motorway is justified or not. It all depends on other connections in place, terrain, whether it is a missing link or gap in a critical constrained route etc. In the case of the "less traveled" sector of AP-7, just between A7 interchange and Aguilas, there were no reliable link whatsoever, just smaller and inadequate rural roads. Then, building a motorway is called advanced planning, something most of Europe has forgotten...
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Old December 21st, 2010, 04:44 PM   #1082
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
...
Spain has certainly better things to do than listening to Barcelona´s CONSTANT, NIGHTMARISH political tantrums for all to hear about the rest of the planet not letting it be the centre of the entire universe, which, like every other normal person fully well knows, IT IS NOT.
What is this bullshit? Calm down and take it easy!

The most important train line in Spain was, is and will be the Mediterranean Corridor and not the line from Madrid to Valencia, check statistics please!
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Old December 21st, 2010, 04:53 PM   #1083
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Originally Posted by aniuska View Post
The most important train line in Spain was, is and will be the Mediterranean Corridor and not the line from Madrid to Valencia, check statistics please!
Could you provide some link with that information? Thanks

It is true that tourism will be very important in the Mediterranean Corridor, but Valencia is an important spanish city and this connection by train is just perfect.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 12:46 AM   #1084
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The first standard gauge train in Spain ever:

http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtop...996129#p996129

(well, except some isolated standard gauge lines later converted or today without freight traffic)
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 12:51 AM   #1085
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Originally Posted by aniuska View Post
What is this bullshit? Calm down and take it easy!

The most important train line in Spain was, is and will be the Mediterranean Corridor and not the line from Madrid to Valencia, check statistics please!
Look man, I am a big fan of international HSR, and I can't wait for the day when I can take a HS train from Paris to Milan through Turin as well as Barcelona and Madrid.

But this short stretch right now is hardly important right now. Yes, the gauge of the tunnel is UIC but after that trains must travel on Iberian gauge again. Commercial travel between Paris and even Lyon and Barcelona still takes too long to be really competitive with airlines. When the connection to Barcelona is finished, then you can have some cause to celebrate as trains can finally travel all the way on UIC gauge, and Lyon should be competitively close enough for HSR even without a true HSL for most of the trip in France.

If anything, making a big deal out of this inauguration would have seemed like a political attempt to gather votes. It's typical of struggling politicians to try to "inaugurate" parts and sections of infrastructure projects even when they are far from being fully delivered. It would have been stupid and strange for the PM to NOT be present at the opening of a Madrid-Valencia line, fully operational.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 10:41 PM   #1086
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Endrity: I think (if I´m not much mistaken) Aniuska is not a man, but a woman.

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Originally Posted by aniuska View Post
What is this bullshit? Calm down and take it easy!
Language, please.

This bull´s thingy is that I live in the middle of the Mediterranean corridor, so I know its ups and downs a bit, ´tcha think so?

Are you going to tell me how important IT CAN BE ONE DAY IN THE FUTURE?
`fraid not, I knew before you told me.

But as it happens, THAT LINE IS NOT FINISHED, so no matter what you say or do won´t change things a bit.

Come to think of it, were you so anti radial lines the day the Madrid to Barcelona HSL opened? Then?

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The most important train line in Spain was, is and will be the Mediterranean Corridor and not the line from Madrid to Valencia, check statistics please!
As endrity has put very rightly, the Mediterranean Corridor is an unfinished line. End of the line. All change, please.
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Old December 22nd, 2010, 11:06 PM   #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The first standard gauge train in Spain ever:

http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtop...996129#p996129

(well, except some isolated standard gauge lines later converted or today without freight traffic)
Certainly NOT the first, not even the first freight train in standard gauge, that was in northern Spain (Asturias), back in the mid XIX century.

Just the first to cross the frontier.

There will be four freight trains A WEEK.
Of course that number will certainly increase, but how much more?
And as I´ve said, it will only have an importance the day the whole line will be finished.
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Old December 23rd, 2010, 11:20 AM   #1088
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Certainly NOT the first, not even the first freight train in standard gauge, that was in northern Spain (Asturias), back in the mid XIX century.
I was thinking about that line when I have written "except some isolated standard gauge lines later converted", as this line is now metre gauge.

It's obvious that for general public the new Madrid-Valencia line has more utility, but the first standard gauge freight train leaving Spain is still an improtant event, even if the line goeas nearly nowhere at the moment, even if it has only four trains a week.
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Old December 23rd, 2010, 02:31 PM   #1089
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Certainly NOT the first, not even the first freight train in standard gauge, that was in northern Spain (Asturias), back in the mid XIX century.

Just the first to cross the frontier.

There will be four freight trains A WEEK.
Of course that number will certainly increase, but how much more?
And as I´ve said, it will only have an importance the day the whole line will be finished.
If I'm not mistaken, the province of Barcelona count for 22 or 23% of the entire spanish industrial output. With the new rail link, that area is now 6 hours closer to the european contient by freight rail. Finished or not, this rail link will be very important for that part of the spanish industrial comunity.
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Old December 25th, 2010, 12:58 AM   #1090
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lol, and you are building a line for 22k people a day
that is, 22k a day....by 2035

in a country with 1/10th the purchasing power

just lol
with the financial help of France and the Gulf countries, for 2025
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Old December 25th, 2010, 10:17 PM   #1091
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Thanks for the pictures from the construction of these two lines of high-speed. The entire infrastructure as well as station buildings are very impressive . I'm looking forward to 2012 when the entire line Madrid - Barcelona - Paris will be put into service
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Old December 26th, 2010, 02:35 AM   #1092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
If I'm not mistaken, the province of Barcelona count for 22 or 23% of the entire spanish industrial output. With the new rail link, that area is now 6 hours closer to the european contient by freight rail. Finished or not, this rail link will be very important for that part of the spanish industrial comunity.
Well, it´s Catalunya the one that represents around 25% of the industrial GDP of Spain (20% of the total GDP of Spain), Catalunya is formed by 4 provinces, Tarragona, Girona, Lleida and Barcelona, being Barcelona the most populated one.

So yes, that rail link it´s very important and will be essential in a few years for Catalonia and therefore for the rest of Spain.
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Old December 26th, 2010, 11:41 AM   #1093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
If I'm not mistaken, the province of Barcelona count for 22 or 23% of the entire spanish industrial output. With the new rail link, that area is now 6 hours closer to the european contient by freight rail. Finished or not, this rail link will be very important for that part of the spanish industrial comunity.
That area cannot be closer to the European continent as Barcelona and Catalonia are already in the European continent... This region (Catalonia) will be "closer" to the rest of Europe and vice versa...
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Old December 26th, 2010, 06:05 PM   #1094
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New Cuenca's HSR Station..

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Old December 29th, 2010, 02:27 AM   #1095
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Well eh, the Madrid-Valencia line is very important if you want to fish for votes, especially if your name is Zapatero.

However, the first ever international railconnection without gauge change will probably be several times more important for the economical development for Spain.

For the first time ever it actually makes sense to run cross border freight-trains. Once and when the coastal rail line is built all the way down to Almeria it will probably bring more economical development to Spain than ALL the other rail lines on the Iberian peninsual together.
valencia is one of the most important ports from the mediterranean sea...


the important thing will be when they join Barcelona and Lyon, not Figueras and Perpignan, two cities without economic importance.

That´s is the obviously reason...


i think that the day that the madrid-barcelona line was inaugurated it wouldn't been good to pay attention to the opening of the line betwen figueres and perpiñan for example

it is the same,valencia, with less population than madrid or barcelona is also a really important city in spain, and the city must be respected
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Last edited by el palmesano; December 29th, 2010 at 02:56 AM.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 02:22 PM   #1096
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the important thing will be when they join Barcelona and Lyon, not Figueras and Perpignan, two cities without economic importance.
And that is precisely what they have done...BY FREIGHT!

Forget about Figueras or Perpignan, it wouldn't make a dent if the line was between wherever in France and Barcelona, Madrid or Belchite. The extremely important thing here and by any and all measure the most important moment in the history of railways in this country is that for the first time EVER you can now transport freight into the central european continent without the need for stoping half a day at the freckin border.

We all know that the price of oil is going up and up and up and up to the point where long distance trucking will go bust and be forced out of the transport market, it already almost happened 2008 or have you forgot about that. How do you think the industries that don't have access to competitive freight transports will do then?

Last edited by gincan; December 29th, 2010 at 02:43 PM.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 04:09 PM   #1097
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
We all know that the price of oil is going up and up and up and up to the point where long distance trucking will go bust and be forced out of the transport market, it already almost happened 2008 or have you forgot about that. How do you think the industries that don't have access to competitive freight transports will do then?
A blatant exaggeration. Freight prices had increased in 2008, but the decline on the truck industry was more related to the economic downturn.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 02:19 AM   #1098
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This was probably subject to discussion a lot of times already in this thread but please forgive my brazenly question as i do not have time nor will to go through 50 pages of this thread.

Anyways, my question is: How the hell was Spain able to pull off a HSR-Network like this? How did they finance it? What was the idea behind it? Why did they choose building rail instead of motorways? I couldn't find anything really answering my questions on wikipedia or when googling it, but im sure a lot of you know.

What is so mind-boggling to me is the rapid expansion of the network as of lately. Their network is already bigger than the LGV network, by far bigger than the german HSR-Network(which is in my eyes actually a joke; a bad one) and still continies to grow. Where did they get the money and political will to do all this? I don't understand how they did it

Enlighten me please!
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Old December 30th, 2010, 02:38 AM   #1099
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The European Union?
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Old December 30th, 2010, 03:26 AM   #1100
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Saw this at LaTribune.fr:


Train is a Talgo 350 (Renfe S102/112)
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