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Old December 30th, 2010, 03:53 AM   #1101
RamiroII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Gravity View Post
Anyways, my question is: How the hell was Spain able to pull off a HSR-Network like this? How did they finance it? What was the idea behind it? Why did they choose building rail instead of motorways? I couldn't find anything really answering my questions on wikipedia or when googling it, but im sure a lot of you know.

What is so mind-boggling to me is the rapid expansion of the network as of lately. Their network is already bigger than the LGV network, by far bigger than the german HSR-Network(which is in my eyes actually a joke; a bad one) and still continies to grow. Where did they get the money and political will to do all this? I don't understand how they did it

Enlighten me please!
Well, I'd say that it all started at the beginning of the 80's, when Spanish railways dated from the XIX century and were all crap because of lack of investment in the XX century, and RENFE was a money-burning machine with large deficits who had to close lots of lines. Therefore the Spanish Gov. had basically two options: a-) forget about moving people on rail or b-) build new lines with the latest tech. The Socialist government made a 15-year plan for investing 2 billion pesetas in railways, starting with the Madrid-Sevilla AVE, which was widely ridiculed by the right wing. But after opening in 1992 (the year of the Barcelona Olympics and the Sevilla Universal Exposition), it became a huge success, and a symbol of progress and the modernity of Spain. And then all politicians wanted to sell AVEs, and make lines everywhere etc. I'd say the current 2020 plan (PEIT) is quite overambitious and will not be done, but the big lines that actually make sense are all completed or almost.

How to pay for it? Of course the EU funds have helped a lot, but the money goes both ways, since Spain then buys to Alsthom, Siemens, Herrenknecht etc. But the main reason after the huge network is that the Spanish economy has been growing above the European average for decades, and there was a huge building boom which filled the state coffers. Actually the Spanish gov. was running budget surpluses until 2008, and had one of the lowest state debt in Europe. So I guess they didnt know what to do with so much money, and now we have the largest motorway and high speed rail networks in Europe... Also Spanish construction costs are relatively low per km compared to other countries, and some of the largest engineering/construction corporations are Spanish (ACS, Ferrovial, Acciona, OHL, Sacyr etc). Perhaps someone else might add more reasons
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Old December 30th, 2010, 09:40 AM   #1102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Gravity View Post
Why did they choose building rail instead of motorways?

Do you realized that Spain also has over 14.000 kms of motorways right now right? I woudn´t really say "instead of", maybe an "and"could fix better there. cheers.
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Old December 30th, 2010, 11:18 AM   #1103
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Originally Posted by RamiroII View Post
Well, I'd say that it all started at the beginning of the 80's, when Spanish railways dated from the XIX century and were all crap because of lack of investment in the XX century, and RENFE was a money-burning machine with large deficits who had to close lots of lines. Therefore the Spanish Gov. had basically two options: a-) forget about moving people on rail or b-) build new lines with the latest tech. The Socialist government made a 15-year plan for investing 2 billion pesetas in railways, starting with the Madrid-Sevilla AVE, which was widely ridiculed by the right wing. But after opening in 1992 (the year of the Barcelona Olympics and the Sevilla Universal Exposition), it became a huge success, and a symbol of progress and the modernity of Spain. And then all politicians wanted to sell AVEs, and make lines everywhere etc. I'd say the current 2020 plan (PEIT) is quite overambitious and will not be done, but the big lines that actually make sense are all completed or almost.

How to pay for it? Of course the EU funds have helped a lot, but the money goes both ways, since Spain then buys to Alsthom, Siemens, Herrenknecht etc. But the main reason after the huge network is that the Spanish economy has been growing above the European average for decades, and there was a huge building boom which filled the state coffers. Actually the Spanish gov. was running budget surpluses until 2008, and had one of the lowest state debt in Europe. So I guess they didnt know what to do with so much money, and now we have the largest motorway and high speed rail networks in Europe... Also Spanish construction costs are relatively low per km compared to other countries, and some of the largest engineering/construction corporations are Spanish (ACS, Ferrovial, Acciona, OHL, Sacyr etc). Perhaps someone else might add more reasons
I understand; well, it seems to me I know far to little about Spain and her economic developement. I wasn't aware of the fact that they had such strong growth and were never really short on money. The recent financial crisis gives you the exact opposite impression, but from what I've just read this is more a problem of an overheated real estate market.

Here in Austria the media gives you the impression that Spain is one of the weaker economies in the EU and they never bring up that Spain experienced solid growth while maintaining a positive budget. I wonder why or maybe it's just me and I missed out on quite a lot
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Old December 30th, 2010, 09:54 PM   #1104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Gravity View Post
Here in Austria the media gives you the impression that Spain is one of the weaker economies in the EU and they never bring up that Spain experienced solid growth while maintaining a positive budget. I wonder why or maybe it's just me and I missed out on quite a lot
Let´s say that it could be true in certain aspects, but certainly NOT in other aspects... and then there´s always the media effect, they´re like vultures...

The Spanish media NEVER give any info about Austria unless it is something they consider more or less 'creepy'... call it Amstetten, call it Haider, call it whatever... oh, and the elections, but until recently that was under the 'Haider' label... oh and Austrian skiers in winter.

It´s also curious, but I have this impression that today Spain has much more relationship with Germany than with Austria...
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Old December 31st, 2010, 05:43 PM   #1105
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Well this may sound weird to some people but it's not always fiesta and siesta in Spain. We even pay taxes! And some people even work! (but only those who can find a job).

The EU also helped, especially until 2007 when the current budget (for the period 2007-2013) was calculated. From that year Spain also gives a lot of money to the EU:

Quote:
Money to EU (billions): 76
Money from EU (billions): 78
Net benefit (billions): 2.2
Ratio of money (Out/In): 1.026
Population (2007): 44,474,631
Net benefit per capita: 49
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_...state_analysis

So, in the period 2007-2013, every Spaniard receives €49 from the EU, €7 per year. In the next EU budget Spain will give more money than it receives.

It's also true that infrastructures are much cheaper in Spain than in most of European countries, as the terrain is cheaper to buy and the population density is quite low.
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Old January 1st, 2011, 08:58 PM   #1106
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[...]E pot hom be dir, que aquell es dels graciosos regnes del mon; que en veritat vos dich, quentre tot lo mon yo ne altre no pot saber, que dues prouincies sien millors ne pus gracioses de totes coses, com es lo regne de Valencia e lo regne de Murcia.[..] (Ramón Muntaner,S.XIV)
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Old January 2nd, 2011, 04:59 PM   #1107
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Quote:
Spain to build 450 km/h railway test circuit


20 December 2010

SPAIN: The government has approved a project to build what it describes as the largest railway test circuit in the world, a 55 km loop designed for trials of 1 435 mm gauge rolling stock at speeds up to 450 km/h. Work on the facility at Bobadilla, between Córdoba and Málaga, is expected to start in 2011 and take four years to complete.

Railway infrastructure authority ADIF is receiving a total of €344·45m for the project, co-funded by the Ministry of Science & Innovation and the European Regional Development Fund. The funding package comprises an interest-free loan of €209·73m and further loan of €134·72m bearing interest at 1·17%.

As well as the main circuit, the centre will also feature a 20 km ring for testing 1 668 mm and 1 435 mm gauge rolling stock at up to 220 km/h. There will be a further 5 km of track for testing metro and light rail vehicles, including small-radius curves for dynamic trials.

Construction of the test centre is expected to draw more railway suppliers to Andalucía, creating a total of 7 000 jobs and unlocking some €60m of private investment.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...t-circuit.html
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Old January 5th, 2011, 06:08 PM   #1108
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Red de AVE en servicio, en construcción y planificada con el tiempo de viaje desde Madrid
Ave network in service, construction, planned and the travelling time from Madrid
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Old January 5th, 2011, 11:15 PM   #1109
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This map is already old, and not completely exact:

Missing:

-The new HSL between Medina and Puebla de Sanabria is in works.
-The new HSL from Madrid to Lisbon in the sector between Caceres and Badajoz is in works too.
-The new HSL from Seville to Antequera-Santa Ana is also in works.

Wrong:

-The HSL from Albacete to Murcia is not in works, just a short sector.
-The HSL from Murcia to Cartagena is not in works at all.
-The HSL between Burgos and Vitoria is not in works yet.
-The HSL north of Figueras to Perpignan in France is already in service.
-The HSL north of León doesn´t get to Oviedo but to Pola de Lena. BTW Oviedo is not on the Atlantic coast, but slightly inland, the city on the coast is Gijon.

Last edited by 437.001; January 6th, 2011 at 01:14 AM.
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Old January 6th, 2011, 06:48 PM   #1110
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From the International Railway Journal:






Read here: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sb/irj1210/#/30




http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sb/irj1210/#/18

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Old January 8th, 2011, 12:03 AM   #1111
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Does RENFE and SNCF are going to buy new trains to operate the line Madrid - Paris in 2012? And what about CAF Oaris (350 km/h)? Is this train has already produced?
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Old January 8th, 2011, 03:57 AM   #1112
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Has anybody else bought those Talgo trains?
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Old January 9th, 2011, 02:49 AM   #1113
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Quote:
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Does RENFE and SNCF are going to buy new trains to operate the line Madrid - Paris in 2012? And what about CAF Oaris (350 km/h)? Is this train has already produced?
No, it´s only prototype, testing begins this year
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Old January 10th, 2011, 06:57 PM   #1114
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Here a magnificent exemple of how to mix a part of our Neo-mudejar architectural style heritage with modernity...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jav View Post
¿Un destino que no es Madrid en la estación de Toledo?





¿Un tren que no es un AVANT en la estación de Toledo?











¡Enhorabuena toledanos!
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...3#post70358403
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[...]E pot hom be dir, que aquell es dels graciosos regnes del mon; que en veritat vos dich, quentre tot lo mon yo ne altre no pot saber, que dues prouincies sien millors ne pus gracioses de totes coses, com es lo regne de Valencia e lo regne de Murcia.[..] (Ramón Muntaner,S.XIV)
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Old January 10th, 2011, 09:46 PM   #1115
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Impact of high speed trains on temporal distances in Spain (interactive map Lainformacion)



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Old January 10th, 2011, 11:02 PM   #1116
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Interesting map.

I'm not shocked to see that there are basically no other destinations than Madrid at Toledo station. But I'm rather surprised that there are even more than two trains of the same category. That is very revolutionary for RENFE standards...
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Old January 11th, 2011, 12:25 AM   #1117
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Because until mid-december this line operated only as a Madrid-Toledo no-stop shuttle (without connections to other lines like Zaragoza, Barcellona, Sevilla, ...).
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Old January 11th, 2011, 05:27 PM   #1118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mare_nostrvm View Post
Here a magnificent exemple of how to mix a part of our Neo-mudejar architectural style heritage with modernity...
Is that a one-tracked, one-platformed station? That would be highly unusual for a high speed rail line, unless I am mistaken.
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Old January 11th, 2011, 06:01 PM   #1119
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Is that a one-tracked, one-platformed station? That would be highly unusual for a high speed rail line, unless I am mistaken.
No,it isn't.There are 2 other tracks in that railway station which can't be observed on the images..

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[...]E pot hom be dir, que aquell es dels graciosos regnes del mon; que en veritat vos dich, quentre tot lo mon yo ne altre no pot saber, que dues prouincies sien millors ne pus gracioses de totes coses, com es lo regne de Valencia e lo regne de Murcia.[..] (Ramón Muntaner,S.XIV)

Last edited by Mare_nostrvm; January 11th, 2011 at 06:57 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2011, 10:32 PM   #1120
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The other two tracks are shorter and very rarely used. If I remember correctly only one train per day is scheduled to stop there.
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