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Old April 27th, 2012, 10:45 PM   #1361
OriK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That shouldn't be allowed. It creates a monopoly in the area.
It's already a monopoly as both companies (FEVE and Renfe operadora) are owned by the central government.

If 437.001 is right, the government is just merging them probably to save money.

FEVE stands for FErrocarriles de Vía Estrecha (Narrow Gauge Railways) and it opperates all the State owned narrow gauge railways (usually metric gauge). While Renfe operates the standard and iberian gauge railways.

There are no private passenger rail services in Spain yet (at least not major ones). There are some other operators owned by autonomic governments like FGC or FGV that coexist with Renfe.
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Old April 28th, 2012, 12:51 AM   #1362
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But those other operators drive on specific lines. In the case of FGC and FGV, narrow gauge for example. This is, suburbs of Barcelona and Valencia... if Spanish gauge only Renfe, if narrow gauge, only FGC or FGV.

No concurrence at all
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Old April 28th, 2012, 05:58 AM   #1363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That shouldn't be allowed. It creates a monopoly in the area.
Everytime you move your fingers to try and post something here on SSC, bread goes more expensive and God murders three kittens...

You deserve that someone pats you on the back, your posts show an incredible knowledge of how railway works... well, no they don´t.
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Old April 28th, 2012, 06:12 AM   #1364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
It's already a monopoly as both companies (FEVE and Renfe operadora) are owned by the central government.

If 437.001 is right, the government is just merging them probably to save money.
I am right, it has been confirmed by the Government and by our inner sources in Renfe. And yes they´re merging them to save money... and to finish something odd that has lasted since the creation of the national Spanish railways in 1941: the existence of two state-owned railway companies, one for the broad gauge and another for the narrow gauge.

Quote:
FEVE stands for FErrocarriles de Vía Estrecha (Narrow Gauge Railways) and it opperates all the State owned narrow gauge railways (usually metric gauge).
Nowadays only metric gauge.
In the past though, it has operated lines which had even narrower gauges, but also standard gauge.

Quote:
While Renfe operates the standard and iberian gauge railways.
Well, not completely true either, Renfe has operated since its creation a metric gauge line in suburban Madrid, and still does.

Quote:
There are no private passenger rail services in Spain yet (at least not major ones).
There aren´t any yet.

Quote:
There are some other operators owned by autonomic governments like FGC or FGV that coexist with Renfe.
Coexistence is not the exact word as they don´t operate the same network, with only one exception in the case of a particular freight train in suburban Barcelona.

The non-Renfe-nor-Feve regional companies are:

-FGC: commuter trains plus some freight, and two rack railways and some cable cars in suburban Barcelona (one of the rack railways is actually in the Pyrenees, though you get there by commuter train).

-FGV: commuter half-metro-like trains, plus a couple tramway lines in suburban Valencia, plus a tram-train network in Alicante and the Costa Blanca.

-Euskotren: commuter trains in the Basque Country, reaching Hendaye in the French side of the Basque Country. Plus the tramways in Bilbao and Vitoria and a cable car. And some freight too.

-SFM: commuter trains in Majorca.

Last edited by 437.001; April 28th, 2012 at 05:56 PM.
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Old April 28th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #1365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That shouldn't be allowed. It creates a monopoly in the area.


There is a mandatory regulation by EU that will apply to free concurrence... but at least several years to see a new operator at Spain for passenger (I think there are seven for freight).

The ADIF web page is prepared to indicate the name of the operator of every train. Obviously, today all of them are Renfe... but at least they are ready for the change.

International trains Portugal to Spain are served by Renfe and CP together.
International trains Spain to Italy, Switzerland and France are served by a company managed by several companies.
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Old April 29th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #1366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
International trains Portugal to Spain are served by Renfe and CP together.
That is true for the Madrid-Lisboa Trenhotel which is jointly operated by CP and RENFE. They both split costs and revenues.

The Sud Express is a different thing. It is CP's in full. CP leases the train and contracts the traction in Spain, operational and commercial support with RENFE. CP supports all costs and keeps the entire revenue, paying RENFE for the services it provides.


Quote:
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International trains Spain to Italy, Switzerland and France are served by a company managed by several companies.
Elipsos? Not several companies. It's 50/50 RENFE and SNCF.
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Old April 30th, 2012, 12:06 AM   #1367
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Elipsos? Not several companies. It's 50/50 RENFE and SNCF.

Thrue!!, and they pay Italian and Swiss network because its use.

There are a daily Madrid-Paris, Barcelona-Paris and a three times per week Barcelona-Zurich/Milano. They go together until Lyon and they separate both branches.

One day they make a mistake and branch to Zurich went to Milano and upside down. They took notice of the mistake several hours later. As far as I know, branch to Zurich stopped and run back to Lyon to get the Zurich direction but the Milano branch had run far away and fastest way was by S.Bernardo tunel.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 12:11 PM   #1368
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Despite the problems I ended up doing Malaga->Granada via rail with an exchange of train in Bobadilla and it was quite worth it for the experience. The view between Malaga and Bobadilla is beaultiful and in the final part it goes through some amazing rock formations over high bridges and tunnels making for a great view, unlike anything I had seen before, which I think is the "Valle de Abdalajís" south of Bobadilla:





The trains were very full. And in the train Algeciras->Granada people had to stand after the stop at Antequera. I noted a social difference between the trains and buses in Spain. The regional train Malaga->Sevilla had a lot of middle class people with children with their iPods and iPhones and Algeciras->Granada had a lot of spanish students. The buses had mostly old spaniards, immigrants (mostly muslims) and tourists. I didn't see anyone from the spanish middle class there.

Both trains were diesen and were basically identical but the one doing Malaga->Sevilla had a terrible engine noise with grave sounds. No idea why it had such an annoying sound but I really valued electric trains in this moment.

The 40 minutes waiting in Bobadilla were quite nice. The station has a free and very clean toilet and a vending machine with many options, so it wasn't so bad.

Another thing worth mentioning is the Malaga rail station. It is inside a large shopping center and I had to put my bags through X-ray scanners there. I haven't seen anything like that before. It was probably put in place after the Al Qaeda attacks, I suppose.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 02:53 PM   #1369
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You can tell Renfe about the noise telling them the hour, day and destination of the train via Twitter (https://twitter.com/#!/Renfe), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/Renfe/) or via their webpage (http://www.renfe.com/EN/empresa/atencion_cliente.html).

I hope they will be able to understand you in simple English, but if you know Spanish it would be much better...

If nobody complains they hardly ever put attention on those things...
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Old June 4th, 2012, 04:01 PM   #1370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sekelsenmat View Post
Another thing worth mentioning is the Malaga rail station. It is inside a large shopping center and I had to put my bags through X-ray scanners there. I haven't seen anything like that before. It was probably put in place after the Al Qaeda attacks, I suppose.

RENFE already scanned luggage on long distance trains before the Madrid attacks. Even though those attacks demonstrated how pointless this is, they keep doing it...
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Old June 4th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #1371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sekelsenmat View Post
Another thing worth mentioning is the Malaga rail station. It is inside a large shopping center and I had to put my bags through X-ray scanners there. I haven't seen anything like that before. It was probably put in place after the Al Qaeda attacks, I suppose.


They are being used in almost all stations with high speed services, but not all, and due to it is known they are not as effective as in planes, not controlled by police (and not reported) and in fact they only check if you have a weapon in your luggage (but you can carry in your handbag and nothing happens)... they are thinking in removing them.

This "service?" started about 2003. New stations since then are ready to have it but old ones had to be addapted (and sometimes the space is minimum).

I think it is the worst valorated service by passengers.
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Old June 4th, 2012, 10:36 PM   #1372
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yes... I hate it... when a friend turned 18 we gifted him an inflatable doll as a joke and we had to take the train back home (as in Atocha some regional trains also used to be in that terminal) and he was really embarrassed at the control because obviously they saw what he was carrying (luckily they didn't say anything)...
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Old June 5th, 2012, 12:22 AM   #1373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
RENFE already scanned luggage on long distance trains before the Madrid attacks. Even though those attacks demonstrated how pointless this is, they keep doing it...
Yes, I don't understand why Renfe use them, it doesn't make sense to justify X-ray scanners because of terrorist attacks such as the ones in 2004 when those attacks took place in suburban trains and the scanners are only required to take long distance and sometimes regional trains. Currently you can board a train like the ones that suffered the attacks without passing your luggage through X-ray scanners (it would be impossible to use them in that kind of lines since they are heavily used with lots of stations, trains and users).

Moreover, long distance trains often also stop in stations in which there are no X-ray scanners, since only main stations have them.
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Old June 5th, 2012, 01:24 AM   #1374
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In fact... I think they only use as an excuse to check that everybody entering the boarding area has ticket (rest of people should remain out).

And... with the similar price, they put a scanner... At the beginning a little of "high level image". Almost ten years later, most of passengers do not understand any advantage of that system, even when it is known that you can cross the scanner with what-you-want, and not all stations have it, so you can take a train with anything on board.
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Old June 5th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #1375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
At the beginning a little of "high level image". ...
The airlines do it so if we want to compete with them, we also need to do it. It sucks if you want to drop of your 80-year old mum though (say BCN Sants) and need to get a platform ticket so the poor woman does not have to drag her suitcase herself.
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Old June 5th, 2012, 07:01 PM   #1376
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And... no images are controlled by police. There is not a list of goods you cannot enter in the boarding area. Depending of transfers you make, it is possible to avoid those checks (they are not in all stations) and... it is easier to attack a train from the country than from inside the train... apart that a knidnapping is almost impossible (should they make a knidnapping it will be as easy as cut off energy on wires and will stop inmediately).

I find no interest on them...
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Old June 6th, 2012, 12:00 AM   #1377
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Furthermore I think that is stupid when they check your ticket in the station for being able to access the platform... I can understand it in commuter and metro networks (with barriers) because there aren't inspectors in each train and it's easier to travel without a valid ticket (thus I'd prefer more inspectors rather than barriers)... but for medium-long distance trains? it's stupid! why I'm not able to say goodbye from the platform... or help a friend or a relative with its luggage until the door of the train?
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Old June 6th, 2012, 08:36 AM   #1378
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Quote:
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Furthermore I think that is stupid when they check your ticket in the station for being able to access the platform... I can understand it in commuter and metro networks (with barriers) because there aren't inspectors in each train and it's easier to travel without a valid ticket (thus I'd prefer more inspectors rather than barriers)... but for medium-long distance trains? it's stupid! why I'm not able to say goodbye from the platform... or help a friend or a relative with its luggage until the door of the train?
Many commuter and metro networks do fine without barriers. And on the Dutch network, which is introducing barriers, going to the platform to say goodbye without having to buy a separate platform ticket will still be possible.

However, special "platform" tickets for people who wanted to see off people have been common on most European networks at one time or another. Didn't know Spain still had them. Must be an exception by now.
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Old June 6th, 2012, 10:57 AM   #1379
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Quote:
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Furthermore I think that is stupid when they check your ticket in the station for being able to access the platform... I can understand it in commuter and metro networks (with barriers) because there aren't inspectors in each train and it's easier to travel without a valid ticket (thus I'd prefer more inspectors rather than barriers)... but for medium-long distance trains? it's stupid! why I'm not able to say goodbye from the platform... or help a friend or a relative with its luggage until the door of the train?


Checking the ticket before entering the platform replaces the inside train checking.

There is a conductor in every train and, in the stations with a check-in, he receives the list of tickets checked... so he do not ask for ticket there.

Furthermore, it is a system that helps to gain punctuality. It was set in Madrid-Sevilla in 1992. You must cross the check-in at least two minutes in advance (do not run in the last minute because if it is closed, doesn't matter if it hasn't gone still... you stay out of the platform).

Being sure everybody crosses the check-in two minutes in advance they can assure they will refund 100% in case of FIVE MINUTES DELAY in any train Madrid-Sevilla (other lines it is twenty minutes)
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Old June 6th, 2012, 02:18 PM   #1380
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Checking the ticket before entering the platform replaces the inside train checking.

There is a conductor in every train and, in the stations with a check-in, he receives the list of tickets checked... so he do not ask for ticket there.

Furthermore, it is a system that helps to gain punctuality. It was set in Madrid-Sevilla in 1992. You must cross the check-in at least two minutes in advance (do not run in the last minute because if it is closed, doesn't matter if it hasn't gone still... you stay out of the platform).

Being sure everybody crosses the check-in two minutes in advance they can assure they will refund 100% in case of FIVE MINUTES DELAY in any train Madrid-Sevilla (other lines it is twenty minutes)
But these check ins require people to pass through a limited number of check points. That makes it impossible to have open stations designs (like Zürich, where platforms have something like 9 entrances each). And how does RENFE deal with people wanting to connecting with a train on the same, or the opposite platform?
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