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Old March 19th, 2007, 02:54 PM   #121
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Spains´s GDP (2006): 1,231.4 US$ bn.
Portugal´s GDP (2006): 153 US$ bn.

1,231.4/153 = 8,04
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Old March 20th, 2007, 08:44 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post


- HSL in service (blue)
- HSL under construction (dark green)
- HSL in planning (yellow)
- improvements works on an existing line (light green)
- projected improvements (orange)
- existing line (black)



Again, that's not all HSL.
That's not true. All that lines in that map (this one, specifically, not others) are
HSL in Spain in standard UIC gauge. Not convetional, nor upgraded tracks, all new High Speed Lines (HSL) built in standard UIC gauge and electrified with 25Kv. 50 HZ A.C.
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Old March 20th, 2007, 09:26 PM   #123
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in that map, blue lines are HSL in use, 25 kV and standard gauge. The red and dotted lines, are the same, but under construction (even if some stretches have yet been opened).

Green lines are planned.

They will be initially built at iberian gauge (1668 mm) but with convertible sleepers (1668 OR1435), electrification will probably be in 25 kV from the beginning.

Some are yet under construction, like Pontevedra-Santiago de Compostela-A Coruña. I've done Santiago-A Coruña by train in august 2006, on some streches my train run on the old line, on some other it used the new. Temporarly, 1668 mm and diesel traction.

Blue and red lines are or will be only-passenger 350 km/h lines, the greens ones miexed passenger/freight, with 200 to 220 km/h as speed limit (not really HSL). We will see how many green lines will be built.

I hope that iberic network will be converted to standard gauge in the future, especially for freight traffic. Rail freight traffic between Spain and France is very low, about 6 million tonnes each yerar
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Old March 21st, 2007, 02:44 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
in that map, blue lines are HSL in use, 25 kV and standard gauge. The red and dotted lines, are the same, but under construction (even if some stretches have yet been opened).

Green lines are planned.

They will be initially built at iberian gauge (1668 mm) but with convertible sleepers (1668 OR1435), electrification will probably be in 25 kV from the beginning.

Some are yet under construction, like Pontevedra-Santiago de Compostela-A Coruña. I've done Santiago-A Coruña by train in august 2006, on some streches my train run on the old line, on some other it used the new. Temporarly, 1668 mm and diesel traction.

Blue and red lines are or will be only-passenger 350 km/h lines, the greens ones miexed passenger/freight, with 200 to 220 km/h as speed limit (not really HSL). We will see how many green lines will be built.

I hope that iberic network will be converted to standard gauge in the future, especially for freight traffic. Rail freight traffic between Spain and France is very low, about 6 million tonnes each yerar
Once again, that's not true.
All that "green lines", or most of them, because oll of them are STILL a proyect, will be built in UIC from start. ADIF, the publish administrator of train infrastructures in Spain, knows that there's no much future on iberian gauge when talking about HSL, and given that fact, not a single NEW HSL in Spain will be built in iberian gauge. Of course there are upgraded tracks in iberian gauge that support speeds greater than 200km/h such as the one that links Barcelona-Valencia; but once again, not a single NEW HSL will be built in iberian gauge.
All of them would be electrified with 25kV 50Hz A.C. ; double tracks in the most important axes, single in those with lower traffic, as it happens already with Madrid-Toledo line.
Top speed on each line is a different thing... Many of them, the most important axes, will be thought to support speeds around 300-350km/h, as Córdoba-Málaga or Madrid-Barcelona. But, for sure all of the "green lines", will support speeds greater than 200km/h, as it is a condition to be considered a HSL in spain. Let's not forget the AVE S-103 (Siemens Velaro) has already achieved a speed of 403,7km/h in August 2006 and the AVE S-102 (Talgo 350 "Duck", a Spanish design) 365km/h in June 2006, both on them on Spanish tracks during tests and without too much hassle.
There will be no cross-levels in them (another requirment).
Trains will be equiped with GSM-R, ERTMS/ETCS level 2 as primary signalling system (to be implemented in 2008) and ERTMS/ETCS level 1 as a backing signalling system (already used in the parts of the Madrid-Barcelona line that are in service and to be implemented through out this year in the rest of the "blue" lines).
The Spanish goverment has an ambitious plan to have 2.230 km of HSL operational by 2010, and high-speed rail has been its "big bet" in infrastructures, taking half of all its great budget (including motorways, airports... ).
I'm aware it is difficult to achieve these goals for 2010 and those 7000km for 2020, but in any case, I'm sure HST have a brilliant future in Spain, as they are though to be a very valuable sign of progress among Spanish society.
PD: thanks to zoltan.

Last edited by growingup; March 21st, 2007 at 03:30 AM. Reason: Spelling ^^
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Old March 21st, 2007, 09:31 PM   #125
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Compare this:
http://www.technologyreview.com/micr...n_trainmap.gif (planned "HSL" lines)
and this:
http://bueker.net/trainspotting/map....-peninsula.gif (existing network)

They shows about the same lines, that is, neraly all railways are planned to be upgraded to 200 km/h and UIC gauge.

It's true that Spain is planning to convert all of its network to standard gauge, it's true that al "green" line are planend to sue standard gauge in the future, but not from the beginning.

Once again, I have travelled the Santiago-A Coruña line in summer 2006, and it used iberian gauge and diesel trains even on the upgraded parts. Some parts of this line have yet been upgraded, some not = my train used the old line here, then the new there, and again the old line, then the new...

At least this line is being (re)built with iberian gauge and diesel traction, and will be converted later. Zoltan here or on Tranvia.org will confirm that.

So:
Phase one: new line, iberian gauge, 3 kV or diesel traction
Phase two: the new line will be converted to standard gauge and 25 kV
The "Corredor Atlántico" follows this scheme, and there is nothing shame in that.

Maybe some lines will built, or rebuilt, with standard gauge from the beginning, probably the lines near the French border, like the Y-Basca (Bilbao/Vitoria-San Sebastián-Irún-France).

I'm still unsure about what will happen with the Pajares base tunnel, anyway (León-Oviedo). Iberic or standard gauge...I think Zoltan answered that question somewhere.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 01:10 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
I believe Spain is a huge country and it is much easier to build rail lines without disrupting population centers in comparison to the UK or Italy which are much smaller in land mass but with larger populations.
Here I have to quote a thing, that a lot of people can't understand...for us a big problem is given by the shape of the country and by the distribution of population...

in many areas, which are really interested in the HSL, there is a continuity in terms of cities and population incredible...if you look with google earth, or something similar, you can easily understand it, for example,watching the area from Venice to Turin...

and where the problem are not the number of people or of cities, often is the conformation of the land...mountains...lika Appennini...

So in Italy the HSL cost a lot more than other countries,because of the population, the territory and also beacuse of the cost of the improvements of the actual network that is already quite exstensive. I

n Spain the situation is different...they are creating infrastructure that don't exist and often the build through quite desertic lands.

Here the actual italian and spanish network:



[/QUOTE]
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:26 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TohrAlkimista View Post
Here I have to quote a thing, that a lot of people can't understand...for us a big problem is given by the shape of the country and by the distribution of population...

in many areas, which are really interested in the HSL, there is a continuity in terms of cities and population incredible...if you look with google earth, or something similar, you can easily understand it, for example,watching the area from Venice to Turin...

and where the problem are not the number of people or of cities, often is the conformation of the land...mountains...lika Appennini...

So in Italy the HSL cost a lot more than other countries,because of the population, the territory and also beacuse of the cost of the improvements of the actual network that is already quite exstensive. I

n Spain the situation is different...they are creating infrastructure that don't exist and often the build through quite desertic lands.

Here the actual italian and spanish network:



[/QUOTE]

Cause Spain is the second largest country in EU (499.542 km²) and Italy is 294,020 km².

Besides, Italy have more population than Spain

Italy--> 58.133.509 (2006)
Spain--> 44.395.286 (2006) BUT 40.202.160 (in 2001) and the inmigrant incoming is 660.000 per year.

So historically, Spain was bigger than Italy and the population was lower, it maybe can explain these maps
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:47 PM   #128
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660 000 people are immigrating per year?

Where do they come from? do you have a source for that?

Did the governemnt set any limit, what they regard as maximum for Spain?

I mean, in 10 years, Spain will have 50 mio people if it goes on like that...
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 06:55 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pflo777 View Post
660 000 people are immigrating per year?

Where do they come from? do you have a source for that?

Did the governemnt set any limit, what they regard as maximum for Spain?

I mean, in 10 years, Spain will have 50 mio people if it goes on like that...
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=455003

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylandman View Post
Spain's immigration explosion second only to US

22 March 2007

In the past five years, Spain has become the country which receives the second highest number of immigrants after the U.S.

A report by the BBVA Bank Foundation found half of the new arrivals came to stay in Spain and had no intention of returning home.

The average number of arrivals was 600,000 a year.

Eight out of ten new members of the population are foreigners, says the report, called the Demographics of Foreigners.

“The intensity of migration to Spain has never been so strong as in the past six years,” said Antonio Izquierdo, professor of sociology at the University of Cordoba, who wrote the report.

He said Spain, in contrary to other European countries, was not just a target of emigration but “installation”.

Latin Americans continued to make up the largest number of arrivals, with 193,000 last year.

But Eastern Europeans were the fastest rising group, with 148,000 in 2006.

The same year, there were 98,000 EU citizens, 101,295 Africans and 31,275 Asians.

There were no clear figures for North Americans

http://www.expatica.com/actual/artic...story_id=37954



España se convierte en el segundo país de destino de los inmigrantes

Un 10,8% de la población es estrangera

En España hay 4,1 millones de extranjeros, a los que se suman 700.000 que han obtenido la nacionalidad, es decir, el 10,8% de la población, la mayor intensidad inmigratoria de la historia de España, que ha convertido al país en el segundo con más inmigrantes, después de Estados Unidos.

La entrada de extranjeros a España entre 2000 y 2006 alcanzó un promedio

http://www.lavanguardia.es/gen/20070...-asturias.html
THE 10,8% OF THE SPANISH POPPULATION IS FOREIGN
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 07:24 PM   #130
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I am sorry @Frozen but the size of Spain is 504.782 km2
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 08:00 PM   #131
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Quote:
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I am sorry @Frozen but the size of Spain is 504.782 km2
Yep, this is the total of the surface (sea + land). The number i wrote is the surface inland, not counting the sea territory
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 08:06 PM   #132
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I hope u will manage this immigration well...it Italy in some parts has become a problem...
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Old March 24th, 2007, 12:29 AM   #133
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Quote:
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I hope u will manage this immigration well...it Italy in some parts has become a problem...
The percentage of inmigrant in Italy is remmarkably lower than spanish one. I think integration needs both parts, not only inmigrant. We used to forget that inmigrant people have a rich culture, everyone.
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Old March 24th, 2007, 12:55 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frozen View Post
The percentage of inmigrant in Italy is remmarkably lower than spanish one. I think integration needs both parts, not only inmigrant. We used to forget that inmigrant people have a rich culture, everyone.
of course, I did not say the contrary...


but I also say that immigration is not an easy thing...
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Old March 24th, 2007, 02:40 AM   #135
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of course, I did not say the contrary...


but I also say that immigration is not an easy thing...
Yep, you are right. Sorry
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Old March 24th, 2007, 12:24 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frozen View Post
Yep, this is the total of the surface (sea + land). The number i wrote is the surface inland, not counting the sea territory
Wrong, this is the total surface of the Spanish territory including the islands and the northern African territories. Why would I count the sea anyway?
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Old March 24th, 2007, 02:26 PM   #137
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There are important movements of inmigration in Spain right now, mainly from Latin America, obviously; but also an increasing inmigration from eastern Europe and Africa, plus those europeans (British,Germans... ) who choose our country to retire. I hope this inmigration is integrated well along the years, fistly because they are a very important part of our economic development and secondly, to avoid riots as those that happened in France. It is always good to learn from diferent cultures and the Iberian peninsula (Portugal and Spain) has been always a bridge between Western Europe and Africa during the middle ages, and later on, Latin America. Spanish and Portugal cultures are a mix of European, Jew and Arabic traditions.
Aniway returning to the matter, here are some more pics of HST on Spain:
AVE-S100 (GEC Alsthom):



AVE-S102 (Talgo 350)




Adif testing Talgo 350:

AVE-S103 (Siemens Velaro):




AVE-S120 (CAF/Alsthom):

AVE-S130 (Talgo):

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Old March 26th, 2007, 12:12 AM   #138
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It will not matter how hard Spain's effort is to develop the country. Others will say that thanks to "their" money Spain is able to built infrastructure like the HSL. No matter how many times we explain that Spain's poorest regions receive the money from the European Union. And that the greatest part of the projects ar fund by the spanish gouvernment and several enterprises...

But that is not their real problem. They are just jalous about the fact that Spain will be a richer country than theirs. When they take a look to the images of new HSL-lines. they look back to the past when Spain was a poor country and when Spaniards always had to look up to the others.
Time is changing and Spain is a devolopped country like France, UK, germany, Italy and The Netherlands.

There's nothing wrong there and those countries are wonderfull in their specific way! Spain has it's bad and good things, like any other country.
This threat is talking about Spanish HSL. If you think it's crap, don't post your crap, because in Spain they allready know that you think In Spain "Things can't be better than in nothern Europe".

Last edited by picassoborseli; March 26th, 2007 at 12:38 AM.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 12:17 AM   #139
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Old March 26th, 2007, 04:41 PM   #140
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According to Spanish president Spain will be the first country in number of High speed reilway in the world in 2010.

Spain is changing "its skin" and becoming one of the most advanced countries(laws, infrastructures, economy,...)
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