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Old June 6th, 2012, 11:09 PM   #1381
OriK
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connections are a pain in Spain... this is a minor problem if you check the schedules as routes are plannified as point-to-point instead of planning connections... it is another point to improve as of course it is impossible to make routes from everywhere to everywhere... so if you need a connection it isn't uncommon having to wait a looong time for your new train.

In addition... in some cases it would be not that hard to improve the frequencies in some routes scheduling some connections instead of only direct routes...
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Old June 7th, 2012, 01:02 AM   #1382
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1- Most of main stations have separated departures and arrivals lounges. In my city, eastern zone is departure, western zone is arrival. When you arrive to the train you can decide to get an exit in the middle of the platform to go to parking or going west

Baggage scanners could be erased but check-ins help for punctuality. No people on platform two minutes in advance of departure... and train arrives on time (five minutes delay in Sevilla line = 100% refund)


2- Connections are going to change drastically on 17th June... we can talk about it.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 02:58 AM   #1383
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What are they going to improve on 17th of June?

Anyway with the platform thing you would get the same effect telling people that the doors of the trains close 2 mins before departure... instead of the whole platform... and I'd see it stupid anyway as I think 30 seconds/1min should be enough for allowing the last passengers boarding in to find their seats.

It would be easier for everybody!
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Old June 7th, 2012, 11:42 AM   #1384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
What are they going to improve on 17th of June?

Anyway with the platform thing you would get the same effect telling people that the doors of the trains close 2 mins before departure... instead of the whole platform... and I'd see it stupid anyway as I think 30 seconds/1min should be enough for allowing the last passengers boarding in to find their seats.

It would be easier for everybody!
I think that would leave many angry costumers thinking the fault is on the railway not to open the doors while the train is still standing, instead of them arriving late.

They could even just push back the published timetable time for 2 minutes before actual departure on every station, but people would easily figure the train stays idling for 2 minutes past doors closing and one day they might end there "demanding" the train operator opens the barely closed doors.

I wish Netherlands had a similar system.

It is also good to deter non-passengers from accessing the platforms. Platforms should be like airport gates: only ticketed people could gains access. Not an extension of the street whatsoever as K_ suggested. Or as some sort of shortcut for even non-travel related foot traffic.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 03:56 PM   #1385
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they are going to improve ASSURED CONNECTIONS.

The first journey to have them in the web was Madrid-Cadiz. Now they have three direct trains. After 17th June they will have another direct train (four trains daily) and... it will be possible to take an AVE Madrid - Sevilla and connection (10 minutes for train change only) to a regional train Sevilla-Cadiz in the same ticket. Four connections daily.

So Madrid-Cadiz will pass having only three trains to have four ones direct and four ones with connection.

Time and price with or without connection is very similar... and eight possibilities everyday to make the journey.

Furthermore, Madrid-Logro˝o keeps one train direct but someone more with connection in Zaragoza (up to four daily, direct or connections).
Barcelona-Vigo changes to Barcelona-Vigo and Barcelona-La Coru˝a (one out of two days to each destination) but you will be able to shuttle to Vigo-Irun or La Coru˝a-Irun and connection assured.

There will be (not available on web yet) a Bilbao-Zaragoza and Zaragoza-Valencia with assured connection


And... someones more.

Renfe has noticed that they are carrying empty trains sometimes and they are usually very punctual. So if they change a little the timetables they can assure without any problem the connections.

Same number of trains on rails, more passengers!!!!!!
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Old June 7th, 2012, 04:57 PM   #1386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
No people on platform two minutes in advance of departure... and train arrives on time (five minutes delay in Sevilla line = 100% refund)
Many railways manage to run on time without these restrictions...
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Old June 7th, 2012, 04:59 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
The first journey to have them in the web was Madrid-Cadiz. Now they have three direct trains. After 17th June they will have another direct train (four trains daily) and... it will be possible to take an AVE Madrid - Sevilla and connection (10 minutes for train change only) to a regional train Sevilla-Cadiz in the same ticket. Four connections daily.

So Madrid-Cadiz will pass having only three trains to have four ones direct and four ones with connection.

Time and price with or without connection is very similar... and eight possibilities everyday to make the journey.
That is good news. A huge improvement. This is a way to generate more income without having extra costs.
But what RENFE also needs is a better online trip planner.
Go to www.bahn.de and look up Girona - Madrid. Now do the same on the RENFE site...
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Old June 7th, 2012, 05:02 PM   #1388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I wish Netherlands had a similar system.

It is also good to deter non-passengers from accessing the platforms. Platforms should be like airport gates: only ticketed people could gains access. Not an extension of the street whatsoever as K_ suggested. Or as some sort of shortcut for even non-travel related foot traffic.
In other words: You are against making rail as useful as possible?

Sometimes I wonder how you live with all the contradictions. You want rail to be more commercial, more for profit. But every time someone suggests something that would increase the value to the customer without increasing the cost to the operator (something any greedy capitalist would be in favor of) you are against it...
I don't get it.
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Old June 7th, 2012, 06:23 PM   #1389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
That is good news. A huge improvement. This is a way to generate more income without having extra costs.
But what RENFE also needs is a better online trip planner.
Go to www.bahn.de and look up Girona - Madrid. Now do the same on the RENFE site...


Try to have a look in its webpage (www.renfe.es) the timetables Madrid-Cadiz. I have checked they are available also in the English version. Ask for trains for today and for, i.e., June 20th... and you will see the difference
"Con enlace" means "with connection". Clicking on every train in the left will open a new window with all the journey and stops. If a connection train they tell you both trains.

Today there are some connection trains, not too much... but they are. As an example, Salamanca-Zaragoza (where I live) and connection to Barcelona.
you can buy a Salamanca-Barcelona and you will travel to Zaragoza in one train, getting off there and taking a Madrid-Barcelona AVE at Zaragoza with the same ticket.

If train is delayed, Renfe sets you in the next AVE to Barcelona (more than one per hour)
If AVE is delayed (more than 99% punctuality), the train to Salamanca will wait for passengers until they arrive.

This train will dissappear on 17th June and will start a Barcelona-Valladolid (until Medina del campo it is a wireled line and until Salamanca only Diesel trains can arrive). They will connect with a regional train Valladolid-Salamanca to make possible the journey Barcelona-Salamanca. Furthermore, the new train is more confortable than current one.


In the Spanish threads we are terribly suprised because too many changes in just some months...
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Old June 8th, 2012, 12:26 AM   #1390
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I think K_ means that Renfe webpage sucks and I agree.

Try to look for Girona-Madrid in renfe webpage and it only will appear the night direct connection... try the same in Bahn.de and you will be able to see much more possibilities with a connection in Barcelona... the connections are not guaranteed but having that amount of daily trains between Barcelona and Madrid is not that bad...

But nice to know that they are trying!

And Suburbanist... I love the Dutch system (I'm currently living in The Netherlands so I know it), with a lot of scheduled connections in which you only have to cross the platform because both trains arrive at the same time... it is very confortable... it is absurd making platforms similar to airport gates because you loose all the flexibility that the train provides... and when you pass the airport control (at least in domestic flights) you are able to access all the gates even if you are arriving... of course they check you again when you are boarding the plane (linke the inspector does when you board the train, but in trains this can also be more flexible) but it wouldn't be the first time that a person takes another plane by mistake...
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Old June 8th, 2012, 01:11 AM   #1391
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for a while, they let you to ask for no direct connections. You asked for a timetable and, if direct train, appeared and if do not, they offered you to ask for information of connections (even if not assured except if 60 minutes between trains!!).

Later they offered only the service if no direct trains. I remember that once I wanted to ask for a connection, instead of asking for a train from my city, I asked from a near city which I knew that connection was required.

Now... no possibilities except if assured connections


Renfe web page really has to improve but seeing what they have done in the last month... let's think they can keep on...
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Old June 8th, 2012, 01:14 AM   #1392
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And... I recommend do not taking the Port Bou (French border)-Gerona-Madrid train except if no other timetables. I think it is the worst train running today in Spain... and they are waiting to finish the line until Gerona to replace it.

If you take a Paris/Geneve-Figueras train you can connect to a train (in the same platform) to Barcelona and there, take a train anywhere.

It is a platform in Figueres with... two different gauges!!!, one for SNCF trains that come from Paris and Geneve, other one for Renfe trains. Today, only from Barcelona but it is ready to change gauge and accept trains from anywhere.
(old Figueres station, with stops in most town is 500m away and keeps on service too)
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Old June 8th, 2012, 09:40 AM   #1393
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There are many positives aspects to sealing off platforms. And many ways to seal platforms.

For instance: it is possible to create a whole "paid area" behind an access hall that accepts only passengers that scanned their tickets (or checked in their RFID passes/cards/tickets). You cross-platform transfer is not entirely lost: you just put secondary gates. and divide platforms serving 2 tracks with a glass panel between the gates.

This way you can:

(1) improve punctuality, especially in countries like Spain where mad-dash runs to departing trains are common

(2) prevent the presence of non-passengers in platforms, where they don't have any business being. This facilitates tracking down eventual criminals caught on camera as they can put cameras on the check-in/entrance gates.

(3) allow passage of very high-speed trains through stations without slowdown

(4) reduces injuries from people falling off onto the tracks (something that killed 8 in Spain south of Barcelona 2 years ago in a single accident!!!!!)

(5) discourage people going to a station just to hang out or do unproductive uses of them which increases cleaning and maintenance costs

(6) reduces fare evasion
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Old June 8th, 2012, 10:29 AM   #1394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
There are many positives aspects to sealing off platforms. And many ways to seal platforms.

This way you can:

(1) improve punctuality, especially in countries like Spain where mad-dash runs to departing trains are common.
Or you could just put a pillbox, and shoot all the tardy Mediterraneans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
(3) allow passage of very high-speed trains through stations without slowdown
But seriously, you sound confused. There are two different issues here - restricting entry to the platforms from outside, and separating the platforms from the tracks - completely different issues.

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(4) reduces injuries from people falling off onto the tracks (something that killed 8 in Spain south of Barcelona 2 years ago in a single accident!!!!!)
People did not "fall onto the tracks" in the Castelldefels incident. They crossed the tracks on foot because the subways were poorly indicated, the platforms low, and because the station was jammed with passengers. More importantly, these were ARRIVING passengers, not DEPARTING passengers. Restricting entrance to the platforms would have done NOTHING. Better signage and a fence in the middle of the tracks would have helped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
(2) prevent the presence of non-passengers in platforms, where they don't have any business being. This facilitates tracking down eventual criminals caught on camera as they can put cameras on the check-in/entrance gates.

(5) discourage people going to a station just to hang out or do unproductive uses of them which increases cleaning and maintenance costs.
How many criminals do you anticipate catching loitering on these station cameras?
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Old June 8th, 2012, 10:32 AM   #1395
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How many criminals do you anticipate catching loitering on these station cameras?
It could discourage pickpocketing, rowdy teenagers, drug dealers, people trying to hustle second-hand tickets and God know how many other filthy elements of society the law-abading majority would rather have out of sight.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 10:52 AM   #1396
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It could discourage pickpocketing, rowdy teenagers, drug dealers, people trying to hustle second-hand tickets and God know how many other filthy elements of society the law-ab[i]ding majority would rather have out of sight.
"Hell is other people."

- Jean-Paul Sartre
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Old June 8th, 2012, 10:58 AM   #1397
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It could discourage pickpocketing, rowdy teenagers, drug dealers, people trying to hustle second-hand tickets and God know how many other filthy elements of society the law-abading majority would rather have out of sight.
You don't like people, do you?

Many railway actually like it when people come to their stations. It is to the advantage of the railway company when a railway station becomes a lively place that functions as the anchor of a city. Where I live the station is where youngsters meet up to go out for example. It's a place where I go shopping.
It's exactly by making the station a "social" place that some countries are now seeing the rise of the "transit generation". A generation of young people so used to organizing their lives around public transit that they don't even bother getting a driving license anymore. And this is good news for the railway, as these transit orientated youngsters will provide them with an income stream that can last for decades.

You don't get this by turning a station in to something like an airport.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 11:01 AM   #1398
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There are many positives aspects to sealing off platforms. And many ways to seal platforms.
There are also many negative aspects. Are you aware of the concept of balancing positive and negative aspects?

You want many entrances to a station, so that passengers have a short route to their train regardless from which direction they are coming to the station.
That's called "being customer orientated".
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Old June 8th, 2012, 11:03 AM   #1399
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People did not "fall onto the tracks" in the Castelldefels incident. They crossed the tracks on foot because the subways were poorly indicated, the platforms low, and because the station was jammed with passengers. More importantly, these were ARRIVING passengers, not DEPARTING passengers. Restricting entrance to the platforms would have done NOTHING. Better signage and a fence in the middle of the tracks would have helped.
Has anything been done in the mean time? A fence would have been easy to implement.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 11:32 AM   #1400
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Many railway actually like it when people come to their stations. It is to the advantage of the railway company when a railway station becomes a lively place that functions as the anchor of a city. Where I live the station is where youngsters meet up to go out for example. It's a place where I go shopping.
It's exactly by making the station a "social" place that some countries are now seeing the rise of the "transit generation". A generation of young people so used to organizing their lives around public transit that they don't even bother getting a driving license anymore. And this is good news for the railway, as these transit orientated youngsters will provide them with an income stream that can last for decades.

You don't get this by turning a station in to something like an airport.
Remember that every airport has the landside - landward of the security and ticket checks.

Where, therefore, thieves, terrorists, rowdy teens and adults etc. are free to hang out.

What does make pure airports less social is that flights are inherently long - due to the time spent for takeoff and climb, and landing. They are therefore inconveniently long and expensive for regular commuting.

Whereas a good train station would attract commuters... and that would be a good spot to concentrate various shops.

The business of police and security is just to see to it that people on their lawful business, INCLUSIVE of loitering, should not act dangerously to others.
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