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Old October 21st, 2012, 06:53 PM   #1481
OriK
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
As an example, Between Stockholm and Copenhagen the proposed HSR line would have a 30 minute headway outside of peak load hours, and that rail corridor does not even reach half the population of the Madrid-Barcelona one, during rush hour they calculated a base need of one train every 6 minutes.
But have in mind that between Madrid and Barcelona there is a "population density gap"... I don't know if the situation is comparable with the one in the Stockholm-Copenhagen corridor...

There are ~15-17 daily buses (ALSA) and 29 daily trains (Renfe)...

¿Why does the bus still exists? It costs 30.34€ and the price is fixed.

The train costs from 45.10€ (night service) or 47.90€ (day service) to 141.40€... and you never know how much you will pay until you buy your tickets.

So obviously the train carries more passengers than the bus, but the bus market is still important... the people chooses the bus over the train because they can't afford those extra 15€ (in the best of the cases)... or because when they try to buy a ticket... it's way more expensive.

It's clear that Renfe needs to improve their comercial policy.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 07:10 PM   #1482
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Renfe doesn't need to improve its pricing policy. Buses serve a lower end of the market for people who will travel on the cheapest possible way even if it takes several hours longer. You can't compete with that, unless you have low-cost high-speed trains (with 3+2 seating, no services on-board, no Internet, limited bathrooms, reduced pitch, no individual lighting, fixed departuring and returning date with no exchange etc.) so that your "cheap" trains that take on buses are still bad enough to put off the crowds that pay much for for regular high-speed trains.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 07:29 PM   #1483
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Renfe doesn't need to improve its pricing policy. Buses serve a lower end of the market for people who will travel on the cheapest possible way even if it takes several hours longer. You can't compete with that, unless you have low-cost high-speed trains (with 3+2 seating, no services on-board, no Internet, limited bathrooms, reduced pitch, no individual lighting, fixed departuring and returning date with no exchange etc.) so that your "cheap" trains that take on buses are still bad enough to put off the crowds that pay much for for regular high-speed trains.

Which is what Renfe should have launched in the first place. Now when the Spanish rail network will open up to private operators they will loose that edge they would otherwise have in the low cost/mass transport segment.

When the first Spanish version of NTV begin to operate, Renfe will be in serious problems. And when the first version of Ryan Rail begin to operate i Spain, I guess Renfe will more or less fold under the competition.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 07:36 PM   #1484
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That's a different market segment. HSR is a bad news to airlines, not so much to bus companies because they are usually significantly cheaper. Much longer too, but for many people that's not so important.
There was a time when international long distance coaches were the poor man's alternative to flying, then came Ryan Air and Easy Jet and those coaches disappeared almost over night.

In fact, until the 1990s deregulation, it cost less than half and even just a third to take an international long distance coach instead of flying, despite the 2-3 days worth of travel time.

Today, no sane person spend upwards 60-70 hours in a buss when you can fly the same distance in 2-3 hours and pay less than half the price. I foresee a similar evolution when it come to low cost trains.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 07:47 PM   #1485
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Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Today, no sane person spend upwards 60-70 hours in a buss when you can fly the same distance in 2-3 hours and pay less than half the price. I foresee a similar evolution when it come to low cost trains.
First of all long distance buses from Eastern Europe to the West (for example) still exist. The main selling point is not the price (similar to Ryanair), but no limits (within reason) on baggage. Travel time between Madrid and Barcelona is only 6-7 hours so it's obvious that buses can still compete. There is also a bus service between Paris and London. Much cheaper than Eurostar, but not really a serious competitor for it.

Second, competition in rail will never be quite so wild as in air. The reason is that there is too much shared infrastructure (paid for by the government) and two trains can't be there at the same time.

By the way prices on Frecciarossa and Italo (by no means a low service operation) are comparable. Why would you expect it to be different in Spain?
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Old October 21st, 2012, 09:33 PM   #1486
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I lived just middle way Madrid to Barcelona and in this station Renfe takes an important number of Madrid-Barcelona passengers... and the bus will have a chance to get passengers in two cases:

First of all, direct buses to Madrid airport. Some buses do not go direct to Madrid centre but stop at first at the airport. Comparing train+commuter against direct bus the difference is not so big and the fare difference is huge

Secondly, buses while the night or early morning or late night. As far as all trains arrive/depart at Barcelona, you cannot arrive Madrid before 9:00 or departing after 21:00
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Old October 21st, 2012, 10:00 PM   #1487
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Secondly, buses while the night or early morning or late night. As far as all trains arrive/depart at Barcelona, you cannot arrive Madrid before 9:00 or departing after 21:00
That could be easily changed by organizing high speed medium distance service ending in Zaragoza with first trains leaving in either direction at around 6:00 and the last at 23:00 (same from Madrid and Barcelona). The early trains in particular might be popular with business people who would like to be in their Madrid/Barcelona office before eight.

One thing is true for sure, the capacity of that line is much higher than is currently used.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 10:06 PM   #1488
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In my humble opinion they should... and they really did it!!! until 2008 there were a Zaragoza-Madrid early morning and several Madrid-Zaragoza-Madrid, stopping at Zaragoza just an hour... but they erased all trains which finished at Zaragoza. All of them enlarged until Barcelona... and at Zaragoza there is a driver's base. This is, an important number of train drivers and usually it is one driver who gets in at Zaragoza, arrive to Barcelona, come back and at Zaragoza they change the driver...


But there are Renfe things hard to understand
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Old October 21st, 2012, 10:09 PM   #1489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
First of all, direct buses to Madrid airport. Some buses do not go direct to Madrid centre but stop at first at the airport. Comparing train+commuter against direct bus the difference is not so big and the fare difference is huge
I think that that is not a valid reason as you can get a direct train to the airport from Atocha.
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Old October 21st, 2012, 10:18 PM   #1490
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Look at this way:

There are things that it is impossible to do worst than Renfe.

From Barajas T4 Airport there are trains every 30 minutes and they arrive at XX.24 or XX:54 to Atocha. They are very punctual and they are free if you are going to shuttle with a high speed train.

Ok in that way... but... more than half of high speed trains that departs from Madrid are with destination Sevilla or destination Barcelona.
Destination Sevilla departs at XX:00 always, and destination Barcelona at XX:30 always and some extra at XX:00.

What does it mean?. You have to consider a 36 minutes for shuttle (impossible to go from the commuter station to the high speed station in just 6 minutes).

So then... Madrid airport T4-Zaragoza
Train: 26 minutes of commuter train, 36 minutes for shuttle and 1h20m for journey until Zaragoza. 2h22m in total
Bus: no shuttle and 3h30 in total

Let's consider how much money does it cost saving just almost one hour going to airport.


Should the trains arrive to Atocha at XX:40 or XX:10, things could change.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 01:24 AM   #1491
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Second, competition in rail will never be quite so wild as in air. The reason is that there is too much shared infrastructure (paid for by the government) and two trains can't be there at the same time.
There are some 300 slots available on the Madrid Barcelona corridor, currently, around 40 of those are used by Renfe. SNCF, DB and FS all have stated their intention to run this corridor, that is 4 competing companies, then you'll have the private ones on top of that. You could end up with a price war pretty quickly once all are up and running.

Who knows, maybe later we'll even see SBB and BR trains to, the capacity will for sure not be a problem on this deserted line, France will probably be the main bottleneck until Montpellier-Perpignan is built.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 01:50 AM   #1492
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Yes, but it will be moderated by the fact that all of them will have to pay the same amount for track use to Adif. Ryanair built it's model to a large extent on using alternative cheaper airports farther away from the main city. Such tactics won't be possible in rail.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 02:19 AM   #1493
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Yes, but it will be moderated by the fact that all of them will have to pay the same amount for track use to Adif. Ryanair built it's model to a large extent on using alternative cheaper airports farther away from the main city. Such tactics won't be possible in rail.
In fact in Spain they do not use cheaper airports at all. They starting using some of them. For instance Santander instead of Bilbao, Reus and Gerona instead of Barcelona, etc...

But finally they use all of them... and they do not receive any aid in main airports, having additional taxes... but it is so much the number of passengers that they prefer to keep them.


In some post, a forumer wrote about the fee for a train using the Spanish gauge rail, the high speed rail and the stations, where different fees, dependind on which ones.
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Old October 24th, 2012, 12:17 AM   #1494
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Nowadays I think that one of the main problems in the Spanish railways is Atocha... there are continuous traffic jams... if those 300 slots were used... I think that it would be a chaos...


10 minutes of Atocha-Cercanías in rush hour (but it's too bright to be rush hour in my opinion). You can also observe some of the trains at Atocha-Puerta de Atocha in the upper right corner.
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Old October 24th, 2012, 11:56 AM   #1495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK
Nowadays I think that one of the main problems in the Spanish railways is Atocha... there are continuous traffic jams... if those 300 slots were used... I think that it would be a chaos...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8fis4aQXXg">YouTube Link</a>
10 minutes of Atocha-Cercanías in rush hour (but it's too bright to be rush hour in my opinion). You can also observe some of the trains at Atocha-Puerta de Atocha in the upper right corner.
But the high speed part is completely separated from the cercanias. Looking at the high speed infrastructure I observe that it is not running at anywhere near capacity.
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Old October 24th, 2012, 04:13 PM   #1496
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But the high speed part is completely separated from the cercanias. Looking at the high speed infrastructure I observe that it is not running at anywhere near capacity.
Have in mind that it's a terminal station, they had to connect the railways in the midle of the platform to be able to use 3 trains per each 2 platforms.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 01:19 AM   #1497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK

Have in mind that it's a terminal station, they had to connect the railways in the midle of the platform to be able to use 3 trains per each 2 platforms.
What do you mean by that?
How many normal gauge tacks does Atocha have?
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Old October 26th, 2012, 01:33 AM   #1498
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Let me ask...
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Old October 26th, 2012, 09:53 AM   #1499
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15 standard gauge and 10 broad gauge, the latter continuing to the tunnels to Chamartín.

With the new standard gauge tunnel 4 additional tracks will be added, but only later. Initially the new tunnel will be linked to the south via a single track branch tunnel, as the new four tracks will not be ready in time. So trains from Valencia will go to Chamartín passing under Atocha, but not stopping there.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 11:37 AM   #1500
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As far as I know, I think trains will be able to stop at Chamartin and Atocha both.
The passengers flux for arrivals and departures in those trains could be different than other ones.

All trains could be able to arrive to Chamartin... If they say Valencia it is because it is the last line built and they consider km. 0 at Chamartin. For a while it is common with Sevilla line (enlarged expected). This means that any train from Sevilla, Malaga and so on will be able to arrive to Chamartin.

Trains from Barcelona would be able too... but too difficult. They should "cross" in diagonal all rails at Atocha to arrive there. It is expected too to have a bridge over the rails and let them to go there without cutting all the traffic
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