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Old January 1st, 2013, 12:27 PM   #1581
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Originally Posted by JumpUp View Post
Another thing I'd like to talk about are ticket prices. I just looked out on renfe.com for the most important spanisch HSL Madrid-Barcelona. Even if I book 2 months in advance I don't find a ticketprice below 100 Euro one way! Isn't that freaking expensive? Deutsche Bahn and sncf (and also trenitalia) offer really good discount prices if you book in advance . just renfe seems to be always expensive.
Renfe is mostly not very competent when it comes to selling it's product on line.
If you go to the website you'll see two options you can follow:
- Timetable and prices
- Purchase.

If you follow "Timetable and prices" you can look up the times, but the only prices you'll see are full fare ones.
If you however choose "Purchase" you get the cheaper fares, and the cheapest on Barcelona Madrid right now is 47,90.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 01:14 PM   #1582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Renfe is mostly not very competent when it comes to selling it's product on line.
If you go to the website you'll see two options you can follow:
- Timetable and prices
- Purchase.

If you follow "Timetable and prices" you can look up the times, but the only prices you'll see are full fare ones.
If you however choose "Purchase" you get the cheaper fares, and the cheapest on Barcelona Madrid right now is 47,90.
I knew about this trick, but honestly it's a stupid system. All it would do is scare away first time users..

Spanish HSR is more expensive than other major European systems, but not by much. Italian one seems to be the cheapest.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 01:25 PM   #1583
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Spanish HSR is more expensive than other major European systems, but not by much.
Not on a per-km basis.

Quote:
Italian one seems to be the cheapest.
Coincidentally (?) it is also the only high-speed system where significant rail vs. rail competition exists (Italo x Trenitalia)
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Old January 1st, 2013, 02:28 PM   #1584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Renfe is mostly not very competent when it comes to selling it's product on line.
If you go to the website you'll see two options you can follow:
- Timetable and prices
- Purchase.

If you follow "Timetable and prices" you can look up the times, but the only prices you'll see are full fare ones.
If you however choose "Purchase" you get the cheaper fares, and the cheapest on Barcelona Madrid right now is 47,90.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I knew about this trick, but honestly it's a stupid system. All it would do is scare away first time users..

Spanish HSR is more expensive than other major European systems, but not by much. Italian one seems to be the cheapest.

They are going to change fares this year but they do not say "how". This is... lower fares and less discounts instead of more expensive fares and a lot of discounts that is current situation.

There are discounts for first people who book the ticket, and as far as they keep booking, discounts are lower or... just dissapear (do not expect to have a great discount on friday evening, for instance)

But despite plane fares, where they can change one euro more, one euro less, here there is a percentage only.
So, if you ask for timetables they will say full fare and you know assured discounts (return ticket, children, youth pass, senior...).
If you want to know the exact price for one train you have to use the "purchase" option. If your intentions either within a day or never mind the day are absolutely flexible you can choose the train with a higher discount. They will say mimimum fare for every class (and sometimes it worths to pay some euro more and be in an upper class)


It is just that... purchase system is not fast for computers (and it can be down because maintenance... it is often to have it down several hours while night). So they keep a fast system only to know the timetables and a link to the purchase.

To know the best fare... it is mandatory to go to the purchase page.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 02:53 PM   #1585
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Hey,

thank you so much for all the answers concerning my questions. I got another thing to ask

Now that many of the biggest citys in Spain are connected with AVE trains and basically run 300 km/h all their way they made a hard life for national airlines...

Are there any plans to connect the biggest airports of Spain (Madrid, Barcelona and perhaps Malaga and Alicante) with the AVE network? Then people for international or continental flights wouldn't need to take a domestic connecting-flight to Madrid Barajas or Barcelona. They could check in at their local AVE station and get carried by train directly to their flight.

In Germany there is this system where they use trains and give them a flight number (e.g. Frankfurt-Cologne or Frankfurt-Stuttgart) so that you basically step into a train while literally bording your plane... And if the train is late you don't need to worry about paying fees for another flight, as in theory, your ICE train runs as a Lufthansa flight!

It is really complicated and, in my humble opinion, half-baked.

Current situacion: Sevilla, Malaga, Cordoba, Ciudad Real, Toledo, Albacete, Valencia, Valladolid, Segovia, Zaragoza, Lerida and Tarragona (and some other cities) have full HSL to Madrid OR Barcelona.
I didn't said Guadalajara because station is 7 km ahead from city centre and it is as fast getting a commuter train in city centre as going to HSL station and getting a HS train to Madrid (very, very, very more expensive).

Other cities, such as Pamplona have a connection to Madrid or Barcelona with a train that goes near Zaragoza in the classic line and later the HSL. 4 daily connections to Madrid and other 4 ones to Barcelona. Time is a little more than full HSL but very competitive
(Alicante has not HSL. It will have in summer)

But look at this way:
My city, Zaragoza, has more than one train per hour to Madrid and to Barcelona. About 1h20m to Madrid and 1h30m to Barcelona. It has a very small airport being the fifth city in population in Spain just because everyone who needs a flight has moved there. There are a few destinations from the airport and are accepted, but if the flight is not in the day you need, people will move before waiting to the next day.

First trains to Madrid and to Barcelona arrive both at 8:55 (these days later).
Try to get a taxi or commuter train to airport, make the check-in, etc... and think in how many flights you cannot take even with HSL and a so short journey (or having to spent night befere in the city just because flight departs at 9:30 or so).
Conversely, last train from Madrid departs at 21:00 (some years ago at 20:30) and you have the same problem. Which is last schedule you can accept for a flight and shuttle to train?


Let's go far away. There is a nice commuter train from Madrid-BarajasT4 to Chamartin, Atocha and other city centre stations. It runs every 30 minutes and will be free if you have any ticket bought in advance (you will have a code in the ticket printed in your home, you enter the code in any machine and will give a free commuter ticket).
ALL trains arrive to Atocha station at XX:24 and XX:54

Almost all trains to Sevilla depart from Puerta de Atocha (it is not the same station, they are together but you have to move with your luggage and it takes some minutes) at XX:00 and almost all trains to Barcelona depart at XX:30.

Supposing the commuter train will be on time, you will need to calculate to arrive 36 minutes in advance to get the HSL.

Trains departs only from Terminal 4. You need to take a free bus within terminals. In normal hours runs every five minutes and takes around 10 minutes.

So... should I arrive to Terminal 1 (it is the terminal I have used more) I would go outside the terminal and:

1- Wait 3 minutes for the bus (I calculate half of its frequency)
2- Take 10 minutes to arrive Terminal 4
3- Wait 15 minutes for the commuter (I calculate half of the frequency)
4- Travel to Atocha in 26 minutes (they are punctual, let's think timetable is OK)
5- Wait for at least 36 minutes to next train to my city just because that rubbish of timetables.

And of course, last depart is at 21:00, even if in less than 1h20m I can arrive my city.

So since I get off airport terminal 1 to the train departs will take 1h30m
Just for a train that takes 1h20m in a 330 km journey!!!!!!


Had I chosen a direct bus, it takes 3h30m from Madrid airport to my city. Just 40 minutes more and non stop, no shuttle, etc...


And I am talking about the possibilities of the fifth city in population which has a very little airport. Too many people wanting to flight and these shuttles to those hubs.

Better... let's not think about smaller cities.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 06:49 PM   #1586
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They are going to change fares this year but they do not say "how". This is... lower fares and less discounts instead of more expensive fares and a lot of discounts that is current situation.
What they need to do is throw out their timetable/booking engine en just buy the HAFAS solution. It's ridiculous that you can't just buy a ticket between any random two stations in Spain...
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Old January 1st, 2013, 07:22 PM   #1587
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I agree... but as far as there is no concurrence, there are some facilities for passengers that are not ready or... just thought!
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Old January 1st, 2013, 07:29 PM   #1588
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Are there any plans to connect the biggest airports of Spain (Madrid, Barcelona and perhaps Malaga and Alicante) with the AVE network?
There are works to take the HSR to Madrid-Barajas (but to me and many others, including many residents in Madrid, this is a pointless investment).
Thereīs the commuter trains and the metro, should they build a Maglev after the AVE?

To Barcelona and Malaga there are commuter trains.
In the case of Barcelona, next year the metro will get there.
Valencia metro reaches the airport too.

Alicante airport is not served by rail yet, albeit thereīs a project of taking Alicante commuter trains there.
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Old January 2nd, 2013, 06:45 PM   #1589
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Official news:

HSL Barcelona-Girona-Figueres Vilafant opens on January the 9th.

Eight AVE Madrid Atocha-Figueres Vilafant and vice-versa per day, two of them with transfer to a TGV Figueres Vilafant-Paris Gare de Lyon.

One AVE Barcelona Sants-Figueres Vilafant and vice-versa per day.

Travel times from Barcelona to Paris reduced to 6h 30min.

Travel times from Saragossa and Madrid to Montpellier and Southern France dramatically slashed. Paris too, but Madrid-Paris will still take 10 hours.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 05:37 PM   #1590
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There are works to take the HSR to Madrid-Barajas (but to me and many others, including many residents in Madrid, this is a pointless investment).
Thereīs the commuter trains and the metro, should they build a Maglev after the AVE?
There was a previous comment that one reason why the Madrid - Barcelona market share may be lower than HSR of comparable distances elsewhere was that many passengers from Barcelona may be flying to meetings in locations near Barajas or connecting with other flights.

So in this case it's not about saving a few minutes from central Madrid but about attracting more of the Barcelona crowd (hence my earlier question about routing a branch under the airport and then into Charmartin).
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:52 PM   #1591
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Official news:

HSL Barcelona-Girona-Figueres Vilafant opens on January the 9th.

Eight AVE Madrid Atocha-Figueres Vilafant and vice-versa per day, two of them with transfer to a TGV Figueres Vilafant-Paris Gare de Lyon.

One AVE Barcelona Sants-Figueres Vilafant and vice-versa per day.

Travel times from Barcelona to Paris reduced to 6h 30min.

Travel times from Saragossa and Madrid to Montpellier and Southern France dramatically slashed. Paris too, but Madrid-Paris will still take 10 hours.
But no through trains from Madrid or Barcelona to France? Why still the transfer in Figueres? HSL is normal gauge, I suppose?
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:59 PM   #1592
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But no through trains from Madrid or Barcelona to France?
Not yet. Thatīll be in April.

Quote:
Why still the transfer in Figueres?
Because homologation of AVE trains in France, and of TGV trains in Spain isnīt finished.

Quote:
HSL is normal gauge, I suppose?
If French Sncf TGVs are going to run on this line, you can guess the answer.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 02:11 AM   #1593
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I suppose?


Yeah with one temporary exemption: Ourense-Santiago-A Coruņa. They have the classical gauge temporary but the civil work is ready to change in a couple of days. It is done in this way because it is not linked to the rest of the network yet, so no need to make a new gauge changing.

Apart of it you will have standard gauge Figueres-Girona-Barcelona-Zaragoza (junction and line to Huesca has also standard gauge)-Madrid-Cordoba-Sevilla and Malaga (junction at Cordoba). Furthermore, from Madrid, junction to Valencia and furthermore to Albacete (Alicante in summer) and a little strech to Toledo.

Madrid-Valladolid has also standard gauge but it is not linked with the rest of the network
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Old January 21st, 2013, 01:20 AM   #1594
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Trouble yesterday and today.
Thereīs a storm on Spain.

This has caused two incidents in Galicia (Northwest).

The Alvia Madrid-Pontevedra derailed near Barbantes station yesterday, in the Ourense province.

And the regional Ferrol-Oviedo derailed as well near Viveiro station today, in the Lugo province.

Both incidents happened due to landslides. No casualties.

On the Med, trains have run today at a lower speed between Tarragona and Castellon, only at 100km/h, due to the wind.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 03:35 AM   #1595
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Video AVE Málaga-Barcelona. Zaragoza Delicias station.



It is the first train does not stop in Madrid Atocha station together with AVE Sevilla-Valencia.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 12:43 AM   #1596
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Videos taken by me
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 08:11 PM   #1597
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A bit of narrow-gauge steam nostalgia:

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Originally Posted by saforenc View Post
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Old January 26th, 2013, 05:04 PM   #1598
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Er... this is a bit too complex to explain, since as I said, there are two very different sections. But these two lines can also be divided in two or even seventeen or eighteen sections, such are the varying stages of construction.

Planification here has been a bit... weird (I donīt want to use rude language).

The Ministry says that the stretch between Monforte del Cid (just outside Alicante) and Murcia could be opening in 2015/16. Weīll see...

This section will consist of a normal HSL between Monforte del Cid and Crevillent (till right here, no problem at all)...

...and an upgraded line (with commuter trains and freight) between Crevillent and Murcia. It will be transformed to Standard gauge, with no third rail.

And this is one of the biggest debates in HSR in Spain, since it will have commuter trains, freight, and HSR together, and its coexistence is source of future trouble to many (including myself). Now, that wouldnīt hurt in other sectors, but I think it does in this particular one.

Its construction is... fragmented at the very least.

Some parts are already in use but in Iberian gauge as a provisional thing, others are in works (various stages, including a new, and in my view totally unnecessary new Orihuela underground station)... and then thereīs Murcia station.

Murcia station, which is supposed to be much bigger and underground (thus very expensive) than the current one, has not started at all, which is an enormous problem since current Murcia station (population 445,000) has only four platforms, which damages the performance of the whole passenger traffic in all the Southeastern region.

======================================================

Then thereīs the Murcia-Lorca-Almería section, which is a part of a different project, but depends completely on the construction of the new Murcia station.

Its construction is also quite fragmented, since it was the first section to be started (donīt ask!), and can be very clearly split in three sections:

-Murcia to Lorca.

It is the most complex section concerning stages of construction. What started out as a simple double tracking and upgrading of the Murcia-Lorca classic line has turned into a full HSL... during the works.

There are three sections (Alhama de Murcia to Totana, and Totana to Lorca -excepting the Alhama de Murcia, Totana, and Lorca approaches, where works havenīt even started-) that have been built to HSL standards, and have platform works finished or at a very advanced stage.

The problem is that one particular strech of the original upgrading project of the classic line (between Sangonera and Librilla) is finished but has never been opened.

Contrarily to the Crevillent-Murcia section of the Alicante-Murcia line, here the line has been built separated from the classic line (while in this case it was perhaps less necessary than between Crevillent and Murcia...), excepted the infamous and yet unused Sangonera-Librilla stretch, which is totally and so disruptive that itīll have to be demolished and re-built to match the rest of the line, that is, having never been used!!!

-Lorca station and Lorca-Pulpí.

Lorca station is a problem nearly as big as Murcia, since Lorca station (population 90,000) has only two platforms.
Like in Murcia, the new station should be an underground and much bigger one. Its construction hasnīt started (budget again).

Works between Lorca and Pulpí havenīt started yet.

And actually the Ministry has more than enough to cope with in this sector: the classic line here is closed after it got very severely damaged in the last September floods.

-Pulpí-Almeria.

This is already in Andalusia, we leave the Murcia region behind.
Works here seem to go very slowly, since this is not a big priority.
There are some viaducts and a long tunnel built, but they take it easy.

But once in service, it will be a great thing, since there are no rail services between Murcia and Andalusia since 1985: now it takes 12 hours to travel by train from Barcelona to Almeria, with this stretch, travel time from Barcelona to Almeria will shorten to only 4h30!!!
This is really interesting, thanks for such an exhaustive account. I've been following the Alicante-Murcia-Almeria clusterduck closely, but it's very hard to figure out what the hell is happening, and some of the decisions taken seem very weird, especially in light of the the financial pinch being applied to a lot of this work.

Maybe you can help explain some of this though:

* What is going to happen with the Alicante-Murcia-Aguilas cercanias service in the long term? I can't see how it can share the LAV without making this stretch one huge capacity bottleneck for the whole Mediterranean line.

* What will happen to the Cartagena-Murcia line? As it joins the Alicante-Murcia line out near Alquerias, it looks set to loose any connection to the rest of the Iberian gauge network. Regauging it to standard gauge (perhaps along with the narrow-gauge Cartagena-Los Nietos line, and diverting the latter into the main line station) would be good for Cartagena, but would only worsen the bottleneck on the Murcia-Crevillente shared-traffic LAV stretch, particularly as a Cartagena-Murcia cercanias is desperately needed.

* If/when the Lorca-Pulpi-Almeria stretch is finally open, what is goign to become of the standard gauge line? Am I right in understanding that if the Sangonera-Librilla stretch has been regauged and made into the LAV, then the Librilla-Aguilas Iberian gauge line will in effect be left with no connection to the rest of the (Iberian) network?

* Given the cost cutting needed, why are underground stations being proposed? I've read that it's being proposed at Almeria terminal as well, where there are large areas of mostly abandoned freight sidings which could easy be used to add additional platforms. Orihuela can easily be expanded on the surface if need be, as can Alicante (which could also re-open the Estacion de Murcia for some services at a fraction of the cost of going underground). Murcia has more limited room, but is certainlly not impossible to expand on the surface, but given it's rather craptastic location (and budget constraints) it would seem to be more prudent to retain it as a cercanias station, and build a new surface level station elsewhere on the route for AVE services (say off the southern ring road?), with a similar solution for Lorca.

* Why is the AVE alignment following the Agulas line to Pulpi anyway, leaving Puerto Lumbreas (14,000) with a station miles off in the huerta? It seems to be a wasted opportunity to re-align the existing broad gauge line at the same time as building the LAV on a route closer to these town, so Lumbreas gets a proper station, before rejoining the original alignment. The cost would not be huge, and both classic and AVE service would pick up a decent traffic boost, as well as the obvious benefits to the town itself.

On that note, the money saved on underground stations could well be spent within the same project to improve access to Huercal Overa by re-opening the Iberian gauge track from Almendricos junction to Huercal at the same time as the LAV is constructed. Cercanias services to Lorca could be extended to HO (or alternate between HO and Aguilas), feeding more traffic from surronding areas to the AVE station, as well as generally improving the connectivity of the city to the surronding region, not just inter-city.
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Old January 26th, 2013, 06:04 PM   #1599
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This is really interesting, thanks for such an exhaustive account. I've been following the Alicante-Murcia-Almeria clusterduck closely, but it's very hard to figure out what the hell is happening, and some of the decisions taken seem very weird, especially in light of the the financial pinch being applied to a lot of this work.
Bit by bit, itīs slowly taking shape.

Quote:
Maybe you can help explain some of this though:
Alright.

Quote:
* What is going to happen with the Alicante-Murcia-Aguilas cercanias service in the long term? I can't see how it can share the LAV without making this stretch one huge capacity bottleneck for the whole Mediterranean line.
Well, actually there are two different commuter lines.
C1 is Alicante-Murcia, and it will be upgraded to standard gauge, no third rail.
The Ministry says that itīll be electrified, 25,000 V. So new rolling stock will have to be used, or some current rolling stock (surely, the Civia EMUs class 464 or 465) from other regions will have to be modified and moved to Murcia-Alicante.

And yes, there might be a bottleneck.

But the construction of this line is so strange that we still donīt know what to think about it. There are sectors which look like the classic line will be spared, while others clearly donīt look like that.

As for Murcia-Lorca-Aguilas, thatīs line C2, its electrification is not so urgent, since it looks like the classic line will be spared and not integrated to the HSL. C1 and C2 are operated separately, there are no direct Alicante-Murcia-Lorca-Aguilas trains.

Quote:
* What will happen to the Cartagena-Murcia line? As it joins the Alicante-Murcia line out near Alquerias, it looks set to loose any connection to the rest of the Iberian gauge network.
Third rail between Alquerias junction and Cartagena.
Between Murcia and the Alquerias junction there is room for a third track.

Quote:
Regauging it to standard gauge (perhaps along with the narrow-gauge Cartagena-Los Nietos line, and diverting the latter into the main line station)
The Cartagena-Los Nietos narrow gauge line wonīt be regauged, that would be too complex, because it goes VERY close to the houses (to give you an idea: house-sidewalk-one railway track-road-sidewalk-house is the alignment in a large part of the line).
If any, it could be converted to light rail, which it almost is by now.

Quote:
would be good for Cartagena, but would only worsen the bottleneck on the Murcia-Crevillente shared-traffic LAV stretch, particularly as a Cartagena-Murcia cercanias is desperately needed.
Not so much. The port of Cartagena is an important one, so it canīt afford to lose its iberian-gauge traffic that easily. So thereīs going to be a third rail.
Freight will be in Iberian gauge, be it to Valencia or to Madrid and beyond, by using the Murcia-Chinchilla line. Some freight could use the Murcia-Alicante line, but the gradient beyond Alicante is steeper. Passenger traffic to/from Valencia and beyond will be in standard gauge.

And yes, a Cartagena-Murcia commuter line is desperately needed, but thereīs no budget yet for it.

As for the Murcia-Crevillent bottleneck... weīll see what happens, because as Iīve already said, weīre a bit lost (even us!) when we try to understand what exactly are they doing.

Quote:
* If/when the Lorca-Pulpi-Almeria stretch is finally open, what is goign to become of the standard gauge line? Am I right in understanding that if the Sangonera-Librilla stretch has been regauged and made into the LAV, then the Librilla-Aguilas Iberian gauge line will in effect be left with no connection to the rest of the (Iberian) network?
No, actually the Sangonera-Librilla stretch would get a third track added, in Iberian gauge.

But this is even more hazy, since now the BIG problem is Murcia station, the line west of Murcia is totally dependant on what is done in Murcia station.

Quote:
* Given the cost cutting needed, why are underground stations being proposed?
They were proposed like that before the crisis started.
Now, the Ministry is trying to reshape things, and some of these projects of underground stations might be abandoned.

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I've read that it's being proposed at Almeria terminal as well, where there are large areas of mostly abandoned freight sidings which could easy be used to add additional platforms.
Itīs still too soon to really know what will they be doing at Almeria station.

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Orihuela can easily be expanded on the surface if need be,
Too late. Works have already started here and are too advanced to change plans now.

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as can Alicante (which could also re-open the Estacion de Murcia for some services at a fraction of the cost of going underground).
Alicante is getting its new HSR platforms on surface, theoretically as a provisional thing, but we suspect itīs that kind of provisional things that end up lasting forever.

And no, Alicante-Benalua station (or Estación de Murcia) wonīt be used for passenger services anymore, since itīs the Freight terminal in Alicante, that would be too disruptive.

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Murcia has more limited room, but is certainlly not impossible to expand on the surface, but given it's rather craptastic location (and budget constraints) it would seem to be more prudent to retain it as a cercanias station, and build a new surface level station elsewhere on the route for AVE services (say off the southern ring road?), with a similar solution for Lorca.
It seems that something similar to the Alicante solution is what Murcia will get, as a provisional-but-could-be-permanent thing too. The mayor or the regional government (canīt remember now who exactly said that) now says that there will be a provisional station at Los Dolores, an eastern Murcia neighbourhood. There might be room, but some houses will inevitably have to be demolished. Maybe they want to gentryfy the area (which is not precisely the best part of Murcia by now).

Weīre a bit clueless about what will be done, because putting the tracks underground in Murcia is not an extra thing, itīs really needed (and thereīs no room for a viaduct since to build it there should be massive demolitions too).

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* Why is the AVE alignment following the Agulas line to Pulpi anyway, leaving Puerto Lumbreas (14,000) with a station miles off in the huerta? It seems to be a wasted opportunity to re-align the existing broad gauge line at the same time as building the LAV on a route closer to these town, so Lumbreas gets a proper station, before rejoining the original alignment. The cost would not be huge, and both classic and AVE service would pick up a decent traffic boost, as well as the obvious benefits to the town itself.
No AVE should be calling at Puerto Lumbreras, that would make too many stops. As for the classic line, it will be kept in service (or so we think), so no particular need for a new station that would involve miles of new tracks and would be too costly.

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On that note, the money saved on underground stations could well be spent within the same project to improve access to Huercal Overa by re-opening the Iberian gauge track from Almendricos junction to Huercal at the same time as the LAV is constructed. Cercanias services to Lorca could be extended to HO (or alternate between HO and Aguilas), feeding more traffic from surronding areas to the AVE station, as well as generally improving the connectivity of the city to the surronding region, not just inter-city.
Good point.
But we still donīt know what to do with the freight, and this could very well mean the reopening of the old Almendricos-Guadix line. Thatīs because of the gradients of the Almeria-Guadix line, one of the mountain lines in Spain, and the first to be electrified in the country, in 1911.

Last edited by 437.001; January 26th, 2013 at 06:10 PM.
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Old January 31st, 2013, 12:27 AM   #1600
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Hi there.

Renfe is starting to offer some tickets woth official transfer to some ex-Feve trains.
For instance, now, with one ticket, you can travel from Barcelona to Leon via Bilbao.
You have to change trains (and station) at Bilbao (from Abando station to Concordia station, which are nearly next door to each other.
This is a very long trip, but it can be interesting for the intermediate stations.

There are more of this official transfers, at Santander, between ex-Feve trains and Renfe regional trains. These are ok to go to some Atlantic coastal towns in northern Spain.
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