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Old May 7th, 2007, 01:25 AM   #321
NearNorthGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abner View Post
I think this is a great point and a good answer to the question of why we shouldn't be removing the depictions on the Michigan Ave. bridge houses or other monuments that are questionable today (except perhaps in truly extreme cases). There is a balancing point between respecting the city's historical public art and monuments on the one hand, and respecting history on the other. It is implicitly understood that some monuments remain from an earlier time, even though it would be inappropriate to create them today; I think it's clear that re-mounting a statue that was removed implies renewed approval in modern times and is therefore ill-advised in this case.

I agree somewhat with the first part of your last sentence, i.e., "...re-mounting a statue that was removed implies renewed approval..." However, in contrast to your position, it seems to me that this renewed approval is a good thing.

We, as a city, approved of this statue in 1893 and we made a mistake when we did not approve of it in the 1970's, when the statue was removed. The statue was removed in an episode of political correctness run amok. It was wrong. Replacing the statue back at 18th and Calumet would right that wrong.

Furthermore, the return of the statue would add to the richness and physical beauty of our city. The suppression of this statue is the worst way to deal with public art. It is also strange to say that this statue ignores the context of the event, as suggested in one of the above posts.

What would put the themes depicted on the statue "in context?" A diorama of the entire Native American vs. European-American experience? Should we take down all of our monuments that suggest or depict violence because they do not show enough "context?"
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Old May 7th, 2007, 02:07 AM   #322
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Great photo thread, Chicagotom!

By the way, does anybody know that status of this gorgeous old building on the right? Is it in danger?

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Old May 7th, 2007, 02:15 AM   #323
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^Trevi Square? No, I don't think it's in any danger. It has a cool little fountain in front of the main entrance.

Huge (but awesome) update Chicagotom!
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Old May 7th, 2007, 02:32 AM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NearNorthGuy View Post
I agree somewhat with the first part of your last sentence, i.e., "...re-mounting a statue that was removed implies renewed approval..." However, in contrast to your position, it seems to me that this renewed approval is a good thing.

We, as a city, approved of this statue in 1893 and we made a mistake when we did not approve of it in the 1970's, when the statue was removed. The statue was removed in an episode of political correctness run amok. It was wrong. Replacing the statue back at 18th and Calumet would right that wrong.

Furthermore, the return of the statue would add to the richness and physical beauty of our city. The suppression of this statue is the worst way to deal with public art. It is also strange to say that this statue ignores the context of the event, as suggested in one of the above posts.

What would put the themes depicted on the statue "in context?" A diorama of the entire Native American vs. European-American experience? Should we take down all of our monuments that suggest or depict violence because they do not show enough "context?"
This is an incomplete response to the issues I brought up earlier. Simply dismissing the objections to the statue as "political correctness" is probably the laziest way of disagreeing with an argument. The monument was removed. It's up to its defenders to convince others why it should be replaced.
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Old May 7th, 2007, 05:58 AM   #325
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Reason Statue Removed

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Originally Posted by Abner View Post
This is an incomplete response to the issues I brought up earlier. Simply dismissing the objections to the statue as "political correctness" is probably the laziest way of disagreeing with an argument. The monument was removed. It's up to its defenders to convince others why it should be replaced.
If I am not mistaken, the reason it was removed in the first place was the state of disrepair and the general downtrowden condition of the neigborhood.
Those contending is was removed because of Indian outcry are simply incorrect. Prove? You have an interesting conondrum with either the History that the statue implies (200 years in 2012), or the history of the statue and it's place in the neighborhood.

Excerpts from some books on the Statue History
--------------------
Fort Dearborn Massacre - 1893 • bronze statue of six figures on a marble base; commissioned by the railroad car manufacturer George Pullman; also called "Black Partridge Saving Mrs. Helm," referring to the friendly Potawatomi chief who saved Mrs. Margaret Helm`s life; another recognizable figure is that of the fort`s physician Dr. Isaac Y. Van Voorhis, who lies mortally wounded on the ground. On the original base, two bas-relief panels by the sculptor illustrated the march from the fort and Black Partridge`s return of the peace medal. The sculpture stood originally at 18th and Calumet streets, adjoining an old cottonwood tree near Pullman`s mansion, believed to have been the site of the massacre; in 1931 it was removed to protect it from vandals and eventually installed in the lobby of the Chicago Historical Society; in 1987 it was relocated to the Prairie Avenue Historical District Park near 18th Street and Prairie Avenue (now called Woman's Park), then eventually put into storage by the Office of Public Art of the Chicago Department of Cultural Affairs. Apparently the monument requires significant conservation work. [280a] [As late as this writing {December 2005}, the monument is not again publicly displayed; eds.] Sculptor: Carl Rohl-Smith.
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Old May 7th, 2007, 08:12 AM   #326
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..

Last edited by Loopy; May 18th, 2010 at 07:13 PM.
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Old May 7th, 2007, 08:29 AM   #327
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Last edited by Loopy; May 18th, 2010 at 07:05 PM.
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Old May 7th, 2007, 10:39 AM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErmDiego View Post
If I am not mistaken, the reason it was removed in the first place was the state of disrepair and the general downtrowden condition of the neigborhood.
Those contending is was removed because of Indian outcry are simply incorrect. Prove? You have an interesting conondrum with either the History that the statue implies (200 years in 2012), or the history of the statue and it's place in the neighborhood.
I was mistaken about the reason it was initially removed, but as Loopy pointed out, it makes absolutely no difference. The hangup that people seem to have about which nation made what request at what time is something that very few so-called "politically correct" people actually care about. I stated in the first place that my argument that the statue shouldn't be replaced has nothing whatsoever to do with whether some other group of people makes a specific statement about it. It's a bad representation of history, and as such belongs in a museum, where it can be viewed as a historical artifact, rather than in public, where it will be viewed as a city-approved statement about the meaning of a historical event. I've yet to hear a response to this that doesn't simply ignore the argument.

There are not very many commemorative statues or monuments in Chicago depicting historical events. (Besides the Michigan Ave. bridge houses, the Haymarket Riot statue comes to mind as an exception, but if I recall right, it's somewhat symbolic and stylized.) They usually either depict individuals (e.g. Lincoln) or symbolic representations (e.g. Ceres on the Board of Trade). When a statue that is supposed to depict a moment in time is put up, that moment in time is decontextualized, aside from the more obvious problem that it's usually a fanciful depiction.

Maybe an analogy would make the point clearer: should the US commission a new monument to be erected at Pearl Harbor depicting a small Japanese man with buckteeth and round glasses in a fighter, strafing a barracks? Would it make it better if the monument also included a small Japanese-American doctor with buckteeth and round glasses tending to the wounded? Okay, maybe the racist depiction is beside the point (although I'd be amazed if the statue of Black Partridge didn't feature something analogous). Even erecting a monument depicting Japanese people, clearly marked as such, attacking Pearl Harbor would be a bad way to memorialize that event, because it implies that what we should be remembering about the event is "THE JAPANESE ATTACKED US," even if the "good guy" in the scene is supposed to remind us "BUT THEY'RE NOT ALL BAD."
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Old May 7th, 2007, 03:20 PM   #329
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Pearl Harbor

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Even erecting a monument depicting Japanese people, clearly marked as such, attacking Pearl Harbor would be a bad way to memorialize that event, because it implies that what we should be remembering about the event is "THE JAPANESE ATTACKED US," even if the "good guy" in the scene is supposed to remind us "BUT THEY'RE NOT ALL BAD."
Pearl Harbor already has their statue's in the ruins like the Arizona...where is the outcry to remove it to protect the Japanese point of view? Didn't Clint Eastwood just essentially figuratively do the same thing you note by making his movies "Flags of our Father", followed by "Letters From Iwo Jima"...did we here the liberal left crying then?
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Old May 7th, 2007, 03:55 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by ErmDiego View Post
Pearl Harbor already has their statue's in the ruins like the Arizona...where is the outcry to remove it to protect the Japanese point of view? Didn't Clint Eastwood just essentially figuratively do the same thing you note by making his movies "Flags of our Father", followed by "Letters From Iwo Jima"...did we here the liberal left crying then?
Wasn't there a huge fllap over the installation of the Enola Gay in the Smithsonian citing insensitivity issues?
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Old May 7th, 2007, 04:57 PM   #331
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^Trevi Square? No, I don't think it's in any danger. It has a cool little fountain in front of the main entrance.

Huge (but awesome) update Chicagotom!

Thanks Guys. I know I put alot of pics in. My camara was out of commission for months. We are starting to see a tremendous change in the South Loop now. Amazing to think that for years this area for the most part sat dormant outside of Printers Row and Dearborn Park.
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Old May 7th, 2007, 05:19 PM   #332
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Tevi Square

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Thanks Guys. I know I put alot of pics in. My camara was out of commission for months. We are starting to see a tremendous change in the South Loop now. Amazing to think that for years this area for the most part sat dormant outside of Printers Row and Dearborn Park.
Tevi Square is one of the original loft development conversion from a Hospital in 1998. It is surprisingly conspicous, as you indicate, especially for it's location right on Michigan Avenue. I think it is the best South Loop loft conversion in the last 10 years, with large units, and an awesome courtyard.
(any developer issues withstanding)
Here are some great close-ups...it looks like they intended to complete a roof room, but never completed.

http://www.allchicagolofts.com/rechi...&LargeImages=1

http://**************/today/lofts/so...i-square_2456/
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Old May 7th, 2007, 06:57 PM   #333
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Loopy,

I didn't have a chance to catch the city poster on the front door of the Artworks building on Clark. I had an extended talk with the construction manager for the building. I'm pretty confident that it's for interior work that looked to be just under way.
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Old May 8th, 2007, 07:33 AM   #334
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One Place

"Midrise North of Astoria Tower (8th State)
I checked in with the sales office for Astoria. Everything has stopped because of a one of the 2 projects has a serious water issue and the street work on 14th."

They have actually made some progress lately on One Place. It looks like they are getting ready to start the elevator shafts.
My wife and I bought a unit there and were getting frustrated by the lack of progress over the last couple of months.( We currently live at 899 S. Plymouth) Water problems sound quite plausible. It seemed like they didn't work for a couple of weeks straight!
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Old May 8th, 2007, 08:32 PM   #335
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SLScotty, Your right. I should have said "everything stopped" on Astoria Tower. I think the mid-rise that you bought in will be great for that stretch of State. Have you heard of any retail leases signed on the ground floor?
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Old May 8th, 2007, 10:01 PM   #336
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Quote:
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This is an incomplete response to the issues I brought up earlier. Simply dismissing the objections to the statue as "political correctness" is probably the laziest way of disagreeing with an argument.
Not true. This is the laziest way: I like it therefore it should be put up. That notwithstanding, is the reason I am for it. Also, my great grandmother was 100% full blooded Native American so please don't tell me my reason isn't good enough. Besides, 99% of the time the people "defending" Indian rights aren't even Native American, just white people trying to clear a guilty conscience of something they didn't even do, their ancestors did.
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Old May 9th, 2007, 04:09 AM   #337
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You're saying that American Indian Center Executive Director Joseph Podlasek does not speak for American Indians, but that you, being one-eighth Indian, are capable of doing so?
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Old May 9th, 2007, 05:06 AM   #338
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..

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Old May 9th, 2007, 05:20 AM   #339
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Church [of Scientology] tends to minister to the wealthy.
They also pretty commonly set up near big college campuses.
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Old May 9th, 2007, 07:41 AM   #340
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Scientology?! Haha, sorry but that episode of south park still kills me. Anyways, I guess setting up in the south loop is pretty much catering to richer folks, and the college students at the same time. College students that really like science fiction, that is.

As far as the statue, well, you cant please everyone. Its tough especially with a past as bloody and ugly as our very own US. A work of art is one thing (I like most public art), but a commemorative piece, I think we should all be honest with ourselves. 'Honoring' the native americans from a eurocentric standpoint is always going to look awkward given the way, historically, this nation has treated them. From how this conversation has been going, im of the opinion at least more dialogue is needed with local Native American groups, and yes, being 'sensitive' to their concerns.
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