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Old June 30th, 2007, 07:56 AM   #641
i_am_hydrogen
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This debate has been going on for months now, consuming three different threads. The same lines of argument have been rehashed over and over again, ad nauseum. Anyone who continues with this discussion in (1) this thread, (2) the X/O thread, or (3) the Park Michigan thread will have their account suspended for a week.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:27 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by i_am_hydrogen View Post
This debate has been going on for months now, consuming three different threads. The same lines of argument have been rehashed over and over again, ad nauseum. Anyone who continues with this discussion in (1) this thread, (2) the X/O thread, or (3) the Park Michigan thread will have their account suspended for a week.
Respectfully, what's the problem? Most of the folks (slooparch, b-girl, boris, etc.), while having different views, are playing nice, discussing current events and news articles, and asking good questions. It seems however, that the same folks want to crap on such talk, turning it personal because it does not fit their perspective. Borris had a great post, indicating that instead of labeling and attacking, layout your view and educate...it leads to better discussion.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 04:46 PM   #643
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..

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Old June 30th, 2007, 07:04 PM   #644
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No, sorry. It's time to move on and talk of other topics. This debate is beyond exhausted.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 07:19 PM   #645
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ErmDiego:

I congratulate the PDNA in its successful effort to maintain the Vet Museum as a community asset. As far as the GSLA, what did you expect them to do in addition?

The GSLA has held advertised meetings every two months over the past eight years…how many have you personally attended?

The GSLA attended numerous meetings and held open forums to discuss the goals and standards developed within the South Loop Community . . .did you take part?

The GSLA played an instrumental role on the Grant Park Framework plan, fighting for the needs of the South Loop with regards to our city’s front yard….your part? You?

The GSLA helped bring the Coliseum Park into reality and yes, has indeed worked with the city and CPD on what you refer to as the 18th and Wentworth Community center….otherwise known as Ping Tom Park Phase II proposed community center adjacent to the river and th e Wells/Wentworth connector. You?

The GSLA was instrumental in defining what the Prairie Avenue District is today, including being the first to propose an absolute townhome scale connection from the historic block stretching to the Wheeler Mansion to help broaden the ill-defined historic scale and forever memorialize it. You?

The GSLA fought long and hard for the new 18th street, handicapped accessible access to the lakefront which I am sure you have enjoyed. You?

The GSLA worked with the Landmarks Division in developing the Motor Row Historic District, the extent of its boundaries and the standards of preservation. You?

The GSLA has been working with CDOT for years on developing standards and pressuring the bureaucracy to provide new streetscaping for Michigan Avenue…including identifiers for our community and the Motor Row District which is now coming to fruition. You?

Eight years ago, the GSLA developed a developer checklist for new projects in the South Loop helping to insure pedestrian friendly scale, minimize traffic disruptions, maximize green space, etc. which the department of planning stated should be used within their department as a new standard. You?

The GSLA has worked with Columbia College in not only supporting their development in the neighborhood, but helping to provide avenues of contact between their creative students and the residents or our community? You?

The GSLA has worked with the McCormick Place for years with the intent on minimizing the disruption that facility has on the surrounding neighborhood while at the same time insuring that the potential positive aspects on the development of Motor Row, Cermak , and the establishing a gateway to both our neighborhood and the adjacent Bronzeville neighborhoods are fully realized. You? (BTW, I was not talking about the taxis, I was referring to the fact that the vast majority of the traffic in the South Loop has little to do with condo buildings.)

The GSLA has worked with local business, developers, and the city to bring attention to retail opportunities throughout the South Loop and provide small-business support via our members. You?

Erm, I am getting tired of this, you have made shameful, undocumented slurs against an all-volounteer non-profit group that has done all of the above and much, much, more.

One of the advantages of the GSLA , which counts a large membership of residents from Congress to the Stevenson, is that they have both the challenge and opportunity to take the needs of both the many individual neighborhoods and the larger community in mind at the same time. It is a unique perspective that I strongly believe is the most important to have while addressing such significant urban development issues that are now occurring in our part of the Central District of Chicago.

The GSLA obviously will not please everyone with their positions, but you are a fool if you believe that anyone dedicated to the GSLA has nothing but the best intentions for the Greater South Loop.

Please, please think before you post and stop throwing out slurs….respect everyone that feels passionate about our community….and let’s focus on real issues concerning development, and not on undocumented fears, or irrelevant vendettas.

Last edited by slooparch; June 30th, 2007 at 07:25 PM.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 08:30 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by i_am_hydrogen View Post
No, sorry. It's time to move on and talk of other topics. This debate is beyond exhausted.
It will never be exhausted when you have people whose superiority complex want to reign supreme.

Besides, it's a valid argument that has yet to be settled.

Also, as you know, the 830 S. Michigan Avenue doesn't get a lot of media press, so I'd at least ask you not to let the thread fall off the map in reference to this forum.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 08:56 PM   #647
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I've been a lurker for some time. I enjoy the development news, but cant really follow the issues everyone has been discussing over the past few pages.

That being said, I plan on purchasing a stake in 2100 and Indiana fairly soon. Can anyone give me any insider information about this development?? Other than the official website and what the developer says, I havent been able to find any outside perspectives or news stories about it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
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Old June 30th, 2007, 09:22 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by skobabe8 View Post
I've been a lurker for some time. I enjoy the development news, but cant really follow the issues everyone has been discussing over the past few pages.

That being said, I plan on purchasing a stake in 2100 and Indiana fairly soon. Can anyone give me any insider information about this development?? Other than the official website and what the developer says, I havent been able to find any outside perspectives or news stories about it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
Andrius Augunas of Rokas Int., the developer, is relatively new to the neighborhood but has already distinguished himself by meeting with civic groups multiple times on his current three projects in the south loop and coming back each time with significant improvements. The architect, Fitzgerald and Associates has committed quite a few unfortunate, but usually well-detailed PoMo projects, but lately appears to be sharpening its skills with a more contemporary vocabulary. Both Rokas and Fitzgerald plan to be operating in the South Loop for years to come which should bode well for hopefully minimizing potential problems with your development and encouraging the developer to resolve them efficiently.

The idea to save the loft building at 2100 was initially suggested by the architect, which, I believe reflects well on Augunas' ability to listen....as does his incorporation of many suggested changes to all three of his projects by both the GSLA, the Department of Planning, and in the case of Motor Row, the Landmarks Division.

If you have been following this thread, then you must also realize that you should expect many of the sites adjacent to and near 2100 will be built with mid-rise and/or high-rise towers in the future...significantly changing your views...
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Old June 30th, 2007, 10:49 PM   #649
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Though I disagree with ErmDiego's central positions, I agree with that the GSLA should pay some attention to the part where ErmDiego writes "...It seems they [GSLA] could care less about the residents, and more about the developers that donate to their operating and advertising funds..." Erm's language is a bit too aggressive for me, but don't discount it completely.

That problem of being "bought off" or having the appearance of being bought off is one that GSLA should confront. Neighborhood organizations should not have such an appearance. Likewise, the boards of neighborhood organizations should be dominated by people who have no conflict of interest whatsoever. The GSLA has not always achieved this ideal.

Persons in leadership positions who are in the real estate industry or even a peripheral connection to the development industry should be kept low. By the way, I was at the very first meeting of the GSLA, when the GSLA name was chosen, and have been to a number of their meetings over the years. I am also familiar with many other neighborhood organizations and have seen countless cases of conflict of interest on the part of Board Members of neighborhood organizations.

Thus, while I recognize that the GSLA has done many good things, and while I think X/O and Park Michigan are good projects, I do think that ErmDiego has a point about the money that comes in to GSLA from developers and others in the construction industry.
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Old June 30th, 2007, 11:06 PM   #650
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Excuse me for asking, but please point out one instance of a decision by the GSLA board that was improperly influenced by a 'conflict of interest'?

As far as some board members being involed in the real estate industry, you are correct...there probably isn't a civic organization in this city that doesn't contain a realtor, tax attorney, building owner, small-business owner, etc. (Including the PDNA) That is because these people have a passion and, indeed, a personal interest in seeing the neighborhood grow to its' fullest potential. However, it is disingenious to immediately jump to the conclusion that the boards, particularly as a whole, are making decisions based only upon their persoanl intersts; again, it is kind of offensive when to suggest an organization such as the GSLA that has run itself so completely transparently.

What I am confused by, is how can you agree with the positions the GSLA has taken, but at the same time accuse them of receiving kick-backs from developers? By the way, by far the major funding for that organization is primarily membership dues, then the BASH.

I would agree that allowing donations from developers is by far much more trouble then the small donations are worth...and would suggest to the GSLA they adopt a new policy of not receiving any cash donations from developers; but having said that, I honestly believe that the few small donations that have been recieved from developers are to help create that sense of community that the South Loop needed...particularly, if you were involved from the beginning, you are aware of that need.

So, the long list of accomplishments by the GSLA does not warrant any mention?

Last edited by slooparch; June 30th, 2007 at 11:08 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old July 1st, 2007, 01:24 AM   #651
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21st and Indiana Status?

[QUOTE=slooparch;14025508]Andrius Augunas of Rokas Int., the developer, is relatively new to the neighborhood but has already distinguished himself by meeting with civic groups multiple times on his current three projects in the south loop and coming back each time with significant improvements. QUOTE]

Any news on sales; Reason I ask is that I saw a flyer where they were offering 4% to buyers agents through June or July. Not an agent, but I wonder if this is reflective of the market, the sales status to date, or both...
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Old July 1st, 2007, 01:31 AM   #652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slooparch View Post
Excuse me for asking, but please point out one instance of a decision by the GSLA board that was improperly influenced by a 'conflict of interest'?

As far as some board members being involed in the real estate industry, you are correct...there probably isn't a civic organization in this city that doesn't contain a realtor, tax attorney, building owner, small-business owner, etc. (Including the PDNA) That is because these people have a passion and, indeed, a personal interest in seeing the neighborhood grow to its' fullest potential. However, it is disingenious to immediately jump to the conclusion that the boards, particularly as a whole, are making decisions based only upon their persoanl intersts; again, it is kind of offensive when to suggest an organization such as the GSLA that has run itself so completely transparently.

What I am confused by, is how can you agree with the positions the GSLA has taken, but at the same time accuse them of receiving kick-backs from developers? By the way, by far the major funding for that organization is primarily membership dues, then the BASH.

I would agree that allowing donations from developers is by far much more trouble then the small donations are worth...and would suggest to the GSLA they adopt a new policy of not receiving any cash donations from developers; but having said that, I honestly believe that the few small donations that have been recieved from developers are to help create that sense of community that the South Loop needed...particularly, if you were involved from the beginning, you are aware of that need.

So, the long list of accomplishments by the GSLA does not warrant any mention?
You are creating a paper tiger and then defeating it. I did not accuse GSLA of taking payment in return for a particular position.

I stand by my statement that it is a bad idea for GSLA to take money from developers who then bring projects before the GSLA. That happens all the time and GSLA has mostly approved the projects of those developers. It's really not very complicated. Don't take the money.

The other part is also very clear. Don't have people in leadership positions who have conflicts of interest. Or at least try to keep those people to a minimum.

These are not concepts that I plucked out of thin air. They speak for themselves and they are in use elsewhere.
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Old July 1st, 2007, 01:44 AM   #653
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If you read my post, I agreed with you on the developer donations....
As far as the 'conflict of interest' board members.....let's be realistic...just about everyone who lives in the south loop and is a professional will have some type of 'conflict of interest'.....

What's important here is that whatever positions the organization takes, it does so transparently and in accordance with its mission, etc....
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Old July 1st, 2007, 02:50 AM   #654
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More to the point, I think, is whether GSLA has ever opposed any project for any reason.
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Old July 1st, 2007, 03:00 AM   #655
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As far as the 'conflict of interest' board members.....let's be realistic...just about everyone who lives in the south loop and is a professional will have some type of 'conflict of interest'.....
That assertion is very wrong. Persons who do marketing for real estate, act as real estate agents, work in development firms, work in consulting firms that do real estate business in the area, work for zoning attorneys or who are zoning attorneys, do construction-related work, and do other development-related work in area, all thrown together, probably constitute a small minority of the people who live in the South Loop.

Those are the people who have a potential conflict of interest in the area.
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Old July 1st, 2007, 07:11 AM   #656
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well, there is no one on the board of the GSLA who fit any of that criteria...that is not the case with PDNA

and, Mr. Dennis, we have opposed many projects....all of the WOW projects, for example, the french chateau tower going up on Michigan for another....certain Central station projects that didn't follow the original PD....

but, more importantly, we have vetoed many negative aspects of almost EVERY project we have reviewed and heavily influenced and changed for the better the projects that got built, while many others just fought tooth and nail with nothing to show for it in the end....

I am amazed at the animosity shown to this group by the bitter nimbys in this forum.....no one seems interestsed in any of the items I listed as a small part of their contribution to the South Loop...instead, there is just a knee-jerk assumption that all those in a position of authority MUST be abusing it....whether in a community group, the city, or private development....very sad....

Last edited by slooparch; July 1st, 2007 at 07:20 AM.
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Old July 1st, 2007, 04:37 PM   #657
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The only "bitter animosity" that is I see is coming from you. Take a look at my posts. I wouldn't change a word. I am bowing out of this discussion.


Edit: To slooparch, thanks for editing your post to at least remove the word "bitter" before "animosity." I'm not being sarcastic, by the way.

Last edited by NearNorthGuy; July 1st, 2007 at 07:25 PM.
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Old July 1st, 2007, 05:14 PM   #658
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Quote:
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well, there is no one on the board of the GSLA who fit any of that criteria...that is not the case with PDNA

and, Mr. Dennis, we have opposed many projects....all of the WOW projects, for example, the french chateau tower going up on Michigan for another....certain Central station projects that didn't follow the original PD....

but, more importantly, we have vetoed many negative aspects of almost EVERY project we have reviewed and heavily influenced and changed for the better the projects that got built, while many others just fought tooth and nail with nothing to show for it in the end....

I am amazed at the animosity shown to this group by the bitter nimbys in this forum.....no one seems interestsed in any of the items I listed as a small part of their contribution to the South Loop...instead, there is just a knee-jerk assumption that all those in a position of authority MUST be abusing it....whether in a community group, the city, or private development....very sad....
Near North Guy is dead on; just the appearance of taking this money makes it questionable; far too common a problem in Chicago. Sort of like the same developers giving campaign money to the former president in his alderman election in the 3rd Ward.

Of course let's not forget the lecturing to the residents of the Prairie District by your former president last June in the Glessner House presentation in regard to the X/O project, despite the overwelming concerns of the project. Why is the GSLA still trying to tell the developers of projects in the Prairie District what they can or can not do? The Alderman has a new plan for development review, let him implement it.
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Old July 1st, 2007, 05:31 PM   #659
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you guys seem intent on fighting.....no comment on what the GSLA has actually done?.....no comment on all of the contributions to the community?

EDiego....we know you oppose XO, but the larger community has overwhelmingly supported it, as the Chicago Journal has also reported support for the propposed Rokas Tower.....you have already admitted to dropping the ball, and not a single person spoke at the planning commision meeting against this project....

apparently Near North dude doesn't think it is important that no one on OUR board would appear to have a conflict of interest based upon his criteria....

and finally, why don't you comment on the countless positive contributions to our community that the GSLA has made? does the GSLA, it's many members within the historic district, the Glessner House and the larger community support (and documented improvement) of the design of XO just forever make them some force for evil?
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Old July 1st, 2007, 05:49 PM   #660
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Near North Guy

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The only "bitter animosity" that is I see is coming from you. Take a look at my posts. I wouldn't change a word. I am bowing out of this discussion.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/neighborho...slum.html#more
Near North guy, living on near North, had you seen this? Wow; It always amazes me the round about connections for these problems...it is the same cluster of developers and leader. Speaks to your examples of just the appearance of connections...easy to make cynics out of us all.
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