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Old August 31st, 2007, 12:34 AM   #941
ozzman
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stole this from the casino thread. proposed 31 story residential tower at 519 s. clinton. it wouldn't block the view from my balcony at all. i would LOVE this if it brings more retail/restaurants to the area. i really like living at 500 s clinton, but it really is an island

http://www.suntimes.com/business/roe...eder29.article
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Old August 31st, 2007, 01:31 AM   #942
ardecila
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Wow. AFAIK, this is the first NEW residential building south of the Eisenhower. It's a good trend - if the area between the Dan Ryan and the river becomes dense residential, that'll do a ton for the pedestrianism of the Roosevelt strip.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 02:01 AM   #943
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Great news. Funny they mention how the residents could take advantage of the Eisenhower... I was thinking more about the Clinton Blue Line Station! This is covering that large parking lot west of the Holiday Inn / pizza place. I hope this does set a precedence, but there are some government buildings that will never (use the term loosely) go away nor give up their supplemental parking lots, i.e. the courthouse, post office, etc. I can't think of any new buiding south of the Ike either. At least they will have the folks in the south tower of the old post office (unless they decide they need more hotel rooms for a casino if built there).
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Old August 31st, 2007, 04:16 AM   #944
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Not necessarily defending McGrath's article - like most people's opinions its some compromised mixture of brains and crap - but isn't the fact that no kids have been hit in ~20 years some indication that it actually *is* safe??
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Old August 31st, 2007, 07:05 AM   #945
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Originally Posted by Chicagotom View Post
Unbelievable that some kid hasn't been hit. With out a fence. I can't imagine that this can even be insured with out one.
Really? How many cars do you speeding down the street in that picture? 3 way stops at each corner, speed bumps and the streets are not through streets. The north end of both of those streets ends at Roosevelt. In 22 years, not one child has ever gotten so much as a scratch from any traffic in the neighborhood. What is it that you see that would bring you to conclude that these streets are so dangerous?

After over 16 years of children attending the school and playing in the park without a fence (and without even 1 incident), what has changed to where all of a sudden a fence is such a dire necessity? The only thing that has changed is the ethnic makeup of the kids that attend this school. Are you suggesting that, when the school was only made up of poor inner city black children, a fence was never needed, but now that more affluent white kids are attending the school, we need to pull out all the stops to protect them?

Please explain.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 05:34 PM   #946
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Maybe CPS is smart enough to know that the changing demographic means their risk of getting sued for large dollars in the event of an incident has risen dramatically. Yes, it's been 20 accident-free years, but all it would take is one rich kid getting hit to bilk CPS for millions...."and all they had to do was spend $60K on a fence to avoid this terrible tragedy"... It would be awfully hard to argue that the school couldn't have reasonably foreseen a potential danger and taken mitigating steps to protect the kids.

I didn't have much opinion on the fence either way, but gotta admit it doesn't look bad. Pretty much matches the yard fences of the NIMBYs across the street
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Old August 31st, 2007, 08:30 PM   #947
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Good point about the rich-kid-getting-scraped-and-suing-for-millions... The fence may indeed be a smart financial CYA move for CPS. I suppose nowadays they have to worry about such things, eh

Yeah, it doesn't look that bad. I walk through there a couple times a day... On one hand, it would be nice if it had a little more imagination to it On the other hand, that would have probably cost more, and its already cost too much. ~50k on a marginal fence for some affluent rapidly gentrifying school is a little embarrassing to my sense of social justice when within just a few mile radius there's plenty of schools that could have well used that money for basic learning things, like computer labs and new books.

Somewhat paradoxically, this smacks a little of NIMBY'ism, doesn't it

So what do the New Urbanists think of this? From my layman's understanding, doesn't New Urbanism generally promote public open space at the center of a development?
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Old August 31st, 2007, 08:37 PM   #948
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I think one of the objections the neighbors had was that they weren't allowed to do some fundraising to put in a nicer fence, if a fence had to be erected. I'm very suspicious of some of the personalities involved and how they've wanted to use this issue, but I think it's really more of a process issue (the way they were dismissively treated by CPS) than a substantive one about the merits of a fence.

On the other hand, if the neighbors are so deeply concerned about aesthetics, one wonders why they've never said a word--or held a bake sale--to fix up the K-rail at the east end of the school parking lot.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 09:32 PM   #949
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I honestly think CPS got tired of waiting on this, and with the school year starting they probably realized part of the NIMBY strategy was to talk this thing into the ground. Gotta admit, it's a little satisfying to see the folks with all the money and connections and sense of entitlement get so thoroughly rebuffed.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 09:50 PM   #950
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Yes, nothing ensures success at a Chicago Public School like flipping off the local community. As proven at South Loop School from 1985-1999, nothing boosts academic performance like the perception that the local school is run for the convenience of CPS educrats rather than neighborhood parents.
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Old August 31st, 2007, 11:11 PM   #951
Ritchie Rich
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Fencing....

It's truly astounding, to the point of being shameful, how much time and effort has been spent on the issue of placing a fence around an urban neighborhood park. Once again, it shows how every issue in the South Loop, no matter how minor or major, has to be debated to the point of absurdity. People, don't you have more meaningful activities to bide your time?

For God's sake, installing a fence does not necessitate conspiracy theories!
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Old September 1st, 2007, 12:06 AM   #952
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Originally Posted by Ritchie Rich View Post
For God's sake, installing a fence does not necessitate conspiracy theories!
Interesting to see the anti fence NIMBY's here. On the lack of accidents, school enrollment is up and recess has not been held during the school day for lack of a fence. And a child was hit last year, but fortunately suffered no injury. Finally, the police commander Keating said a fence was needed for safety -- since when do you need a dead or critically injured child to make a safety improvement?

As to the neighbors promotion that they would build a better fence -- hogwash. There were a years worth of meetings and the only plans that had the backing of the neighborhood were suggestions to remove traffic from their enclave -- have the teachers park at the Walgreens off Roosevelt, have the parents drop the kids at NTA and then bus them in from there, etc, and keeping their sacred prettiest green space in the city fence free. When they were asked to compromise -- prohibiting permit parking on Federal and Plymouth north of 13th street between the high traffic hours of 8-9:30 am to alleviate what they claim is school caused gridlock they screamed bloody murder. The fence is a nice symbol, just as XO would be in a way, that people who live in a city don't and can't expect to have control over their surrounding environment. I don't know anywhere in the south loop where that belief as a god given right is as prominent as the two Dearborn parks, and frankly it is the result of poor leadership epitomized by McGrath's hyperbolic ramblings. As it is they are wasting money on a ridiculous lawsuit with no chance of prevailing, yet their leadership is saying that their attorney assures them they will get the fence torn out. While I can't imagine any lawyer saying that , he is an attorney who has had some difficulties with maintaining his license.

Last edited by Prairie Avenue; October 22nd, 2007 at 08:45 PM.
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Old September 1st, 2007, 12:16 AM   #953
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Yes, nothing ensures success at a Chicago Public School like flipping off the local community. As proven at South Loop School from 1985-1999, nothing boosts academic performance like the perception that the local school is run for the convenience of CPS educrats rather than neighborhood parents.
The down years you cite were caused by two things, CPS not drawing sensible boundaries and parents in DP and DP II refusing to send their white kids to a black dominated school. I wasn't around and don't know what promises were made that have these old timers so embittered they proclaim sheer nonsense as known truth, but the fact of the matter is that in 2002 when the boundaries were changed as well as the gifted program added, the school remained 94% African American and 90% of the students were on the free or reduced lunch program meaning they were living at or below poverty level. While those numbers have since changed parents in 2002 took a leap of faith with their kindergarteners and 1st graders, and took over leadership on the LSC and at the school, under the same general conditions that the pioneers of DP were faced with but refused. Now they spend their time and money attacking the very people they should have been. I am sure Freud could say what is really going on here.
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Old September 1st, 2007, 12:27 AM   #954
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Then I'll shut up on this

A final thought. the fact of the matter is that DP I and II were made as enclaves to attract whites to reside south of Congress that otherwise would never have willingly bought homes in what was perceived as a "black friendly" area. Unless the school was going to be limited to DP kids only it was doomed for failure as long as South Loop families were made up primarily of DP residents, because they would never have resided there without the guarantee of being able to be insulated from true city and cosmopolitan intercation. The only way the school was saved and turned around was to bring in families who were unlike in mind to those who settled the Dearborn park areas so the fact that there are constant conflicts between the two groups is fate and should have been totally expected. CPS for the first time with this fence has not succumbed to the non school residents threats and intimidation, and that is the most positive thing to come of this whole ordeal. And it is also why so much time and effort has been expended -- this was never truly about a fence or a park, it was about whether CPS could come into their enclave and do something they didn't want outside of the four walls of the school. Same reason Bonnie wrote a column 2 weeks ago griping about the school leasing the parking lot -- she whined about the loss of free parking -- IT IS 2 BUCKS PER DAY THATS AS CLOSE TO FREE AS IT GETS -- it wasn't about the cost really it was about the control CPS was exerting over "their" (the residents) parking lot on weekends -- beyond the school day!

I just don't think you can whitewash the whole south loop as having the same NIMBY and parochial attitudes of the Dearborn Parks -- those are unique spirits of entitlement there. By the way I see the "Residents Only" sign was up again at the Dearborn 1 entry way, I thought they only did that during the week of the taste?

Last edited by Prairie Avenue; September 1st, 2007 at 12:29 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old September 1st, 2007, 01:09 AM   #955
Ritchie Rich
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Does anyone have any REAL neighborhood development news to share?
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Old September 1st, 2007, 03:05 AM   #956
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haha, this fence-issue seems to have touched a nerve eh?

Funny that - to me - it just seems that once again, the people in power
got exactly what they wanted to protect their interests... And the less
economically-advantaged kids now have even less by comparison.
Great. Money well spent. Congratulations to all. Well-played.

Ah well, it seems on both sides there's a lot of mostly normal people
(whatever that means I suppose...) along with a small lunatic fringe that has a hard time controlling their Tourette's urges

Its ok. Its not their fault
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Old September 1st, 2007, 06:22 AM   #957
Ritchie Rich
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All of this afternoon's postings to this thread continues to reinforce my earlier statements....too many people on this forum have way too much time on their hands to spend on such a STUPID topic as a fence enclosing a park.

I throw out a challenge to all of you - what is the real motivation for your postings to this thread and this forum? For many of you, I truly believe it's the selfish opportunity for self aggrandizement in print.

Prove me wrong - comment on something truly relavent and productive....
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Old September 1st, 2007, 06:43 AM   #958
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As it is they are wasting money on a ridiculous lawsuit with no chance of prevailing, yet their leadership is saying that their attorney assures them they will get the fence torn out. While I can't imagine any lawyer saying that , he is an attorney who has had some difficulties with maintaining his license.
John, what's actually most ridiculous is the level and volume of vitriol you are spewing over this whole thing. Yes, we know that you and Bob are buddies. Yes, we know you are on the LSC. Clearly you have some emotions tied up in this, but, holy smokes, can you state your case intelligently and civilly without melting down to name calling and blabbing out outright falsehoods?
This fence has nothing to do with the kids having recess, this is a fact that cannot be denied. The kids do not have recess because of a UNION ISSUE. You can build a 10 foot barricade around the park and there will still be no recess. This whole thing is a farce. The only times this area is dangerous is when the parents are dropping off or picking up their children and are not obeying the traffic laws and are dumping their kids off in the middle of the street instead of safely dropping them in front of the school and also when the school is selling parking for the Bears games and people are speeding down the street to get off to the game. You know this. I know your buddy Bob knows this because he claims he is "totally opposed" to the Bears game parking.

John, calm down, take a deep breath, go for a walk, and come back when you can intelligently discuss the facts rather than resorting to bogus assumptions, false accusations, and name calling.
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Old September 1st, 2007, 07:14 AM   #959
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Maybe CPS is smart enough to know that the changing demographic means their risk of getting sued for large dollars in the event of an incident has risen dramatically. Yes, it's been 20 accident-free years, but all it would take is one rich kid getting hit to bilk CPS for millions...."and all they had to do was spend $60K on a fence to avoid this terrible tragedy"... It would be awfully hard to argue that the school couldn't have reasonably foreseen a potential danger and taken mitigating steps to protect the kids.

Are you serious? You honestly believe that a poor black kid getting hit by a car in a rich neighborhood will have trouble finding an ambulance chaser to represent him? There would be an army of ambulance chasers beating his hospital room door down!! Even Prairie Avenue would agree with me on this one, this is what he does for a living. Ask him.
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Old September 1st, 2007, 07:58 PM   #960
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I wasn't around and don't know what promises were made that have these old timers so embittered . . . parents in 2002 took a leap of faith . . . under the same general conditions that the pioneers of DP were faced with but refused.
A school was always part of the deal to create Dearborn Park, but the turmoil of the Bilandic/Byrne/Washington era meant a slow start. A school in Dearborn Station didn't pan out, so CPS bought two 9th Street townhouses for the temporary school, which lasted until the new building opened in 1985. Problem was, the new school had more room than needed at the time, since DPII hadn't yet opened. Activists in the Dearborn/Ickes/Hilliard Homes (plus Long Grove House) seized on this because they were also frustrated with how CPS was (not) serving their children, and exploited the racial politics of the time. The resulting compromise attendance boundaries satisfied no one.

It's a shame the resulting struggle was cast as black vs. white, as nearly all the DP kids were black, also. But there was definitely a cultural difference. The number one best predictor of educational success is the expectations and aspirations of the school's parents. And there was a dramatic difference between the "project" kids, who needed all sorts of remedial programs just to be at grade level, and the "DP" kids, whose parents wanted gifted programs and enrichment activities. The DP parents were fiercely committed to the idea of real cultural and racial diversity in the school, but how that diversity manifested itself forced them to make some tough decisions about the theory of diversity vs. the reality of poor educational performance.

As the LSC era dawned, the "project" parents seized control in some rather ugly political battles, and the "DP" parents eventually, slowly, withdrew in frustration. So by the time NTA opened, I don't think a single Dearborn Park child attended the school in Dearborn Park. And the opening of NTA--as a local school with attendance boundaries encompassing the "projects"--is the factor you're overlooking in asking what's different today from in 1985.

In conclusion, I just want to say that while I've had many differences through the years with the parochial concerns of some DP residents, I don't understand the schadenfreude I sometimes see exhibited on this board toward DP residents. These are, after all, people who invested their own financial well-being, energy, and family welfare in the concept of living in and reviving the Near South Side.
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