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Old December 15th, 2008, 01:08 PM   #181
GENIUS LOCI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
You don't wanna go there...we have been discussing a HSR link between Turin and Lion for quite a VERY long time...there are issues on the alpine valleys which do not want the line but they seem on the point to be fixed. Anyway we will not see HSR opened before 2025...my forecast.
Without waiting 2025 (bit pessimistic, anyway) TGV trains reach Milan even today and there are Italian ETR 460 in line on Lyon-Milan connection, obviously using traditional rail
Then within few years, even with a not fully completed HSR link between France and Italy, you could bring a HS train between Paris and Rome (and Naples, don't forget HSR Rome-Naples is open since last year) with 'just' Lyon-Turin not HS (maybe from Lyon to Italian border it will work in few years, anyway, as they started to build the line since 2 years at least)
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Old December 15th, 2008, 05:55 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Maybe I am wrong but I am quite sure: they changed just the loco between monotensione and politensione...the wagons (the 12 wagons after the loco) are the same ones...20 years old more or less. They were extremely good wagons so they are still up to date.

Trenitalia bought some years ago new locomotives for all ETR500 because of the decision to make new HSR lines at polytension instead of the normal monotension which we have in Italy
they picked the 30 "old" (dating from 1992?) intermediate coaches of each ETR500 consist and replaced the old monotension locomotives (clas 414) with new bi-tension locomotives(class 404).

The new ETR500 are some 60 consists ... 30 of them use the old intermediate cars ... and these consists have been recently revamped ... the remaining cars were built new in year 2000.

the old locomotives class 414 now operate in consists of "conventional" coaches:



http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/it/.../E414/pix.html

the new colors of the ETR500 look much more stilish than the old green one:



ETR485 Pendolino also looks great in its new colors:
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Old December 15th, 2008, 05:55 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
I knew they refurbished the wagons

Anyway by my personal experience, on old TGV interiors are quite ugly and dirty as they're the original ones, while on 'new' duplex TGV are very good
If I'm not wrong there was a refurbishment program for TGV old version trains
SNCF also swapped traction between some duplex consists and some old ones for the new East routes.
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Old December 15th, 2008, 06:15 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
[cut]
the new colors of the ETR500 look much more stilish than the old green one:
The colour scheme has been changed another time since theese pictures. Now ETR500 (404) trains have much more red all over them (see pics below).
BTW I prefer them coloured like in your pics.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 01:35 AM   #185
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Sorry but I couldn't resist to post other pics of Milano Centrale renovation

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Originally Posted by michyh87 View Post
posto questa foto che ho fatto, molto carina della biglietteria EST


Il vecchio e il nuovo

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Originally Posted by hyperdanny View Post
Queste le cose che mi sono piaciute, e non c'è molto da commentare , solo da ammirare...













Spaces waiting for shops

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Originally Posted by hyperdanny View Post
Queste sono le cose che si prospettano bene, ma su cui per ora sospendo il giudizio..

La futura galleria commerciale, importantissima per far si che la stazione si affranchi almeno un po' dal degrado ambientale





La bilgietteria: esteticamente è bellissima, e finalmente sono scomparsi per sempre gli orridi divisori in vetro, ma c'è qualcosa da rivedere nei turni di lavoro, perche' domenica alle 18:30 le code erano pazzesche ovunque, pochi gli sportelli aperti.

Areas waiting they hurry up workin' and outside areas waiting for the mess to be stopped

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Originally Posted by hyperdanny View Post
E queste sono le cose che non mi sono piaciute per niente.

Qualche ritardo è comprensibile ed anche fisiologico , in un opera di tale portata, ma la parte verso IV novembre è MOLTO indietro






Il puttanaio automobilistico è totale..non tanto per il solito traffico, ma perche’ ci sono macchine depositate per ogni dove..l’ex-rotonda dei taxi in facciata.



….. Fin quasi dentro la Galleria delle carrozze. Conoscendo la ben nota civilta’ dell’automobilista milanese, spero sia prevista qualche piccola risistemazione della piazza, o ci troveremo ben presto i Suv davanti alle scale mobili…




Soprattutto, io vorrei tanto sapere cosa è previsto esattamente per le ex- biglietterie est e ovest, che non sono state neanche toccate, e si prestano fin troppo bene a diventare luogo di bivacco…per me sarebbero luogo ideale per i ristoranti, ma per ora sono vuote ed abbandonate…

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Old December 16th, 2008, 05:57 AM   #186
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Is this related :

Italy launches Rome-Milan high-speed train
15 December 2008
Associated Press Newswires

ABOARD ES ITALIA AV 9427 (AP) - Just outside Milan, the countryside started to blur as the Italian Railway's new Red Arrow high-speed train reached its maximum velocity of 186 mph (300 kph).

Dario Rigamonti, a consultant traveling to Florence on Monday, moved to an empty window seat, gazing out in wonder: "It is impressive."

The speedier service shaves an hour off the lucrative 300-mile (500-kilometer) Milan-Rome route, connecting Italy's political and financial capitals in three hours and 30 minutes 18 times a day.

The timing of the new service, which launched Sunday, couldn't be better for the state-owned Italian Railway. Air service between Milan and Rome has been thrown into disarray with the relaunch of Alitalia, which lost passengers to trains and to the highways as wildcat strikes and reduced connections made air travel uncertain.

A second-class one-way ticket can cost around euro67 ($90.52), while an airline trip is at least euro90 ($121.59) and driving can cost some euro85 ($114.84) in gas and toll charges.

Italian Railway CEO Mauro Moretti aims to snag 60 percent of the 3.7 million passengers who fly the route every year.

But analyst Diego Petrocelli of Bain & Co. said they won't really start taking a bite out of air travelers until the time gets under three hours. Attainment of that goal is expected at the end of 2010 when the track between Florence and Bologna is improved to shorten that leg to 30 minutes.

The Italian Railway will have to consolidate passenger loyalty before 2011, when it faces private competition in the form of NTV, a new company led by Ferrari president Luca Cordero di Montezemolo.

The new company, which will launch with 25 11-car AGV trains by French engineering company Alstom SA, plans to connect Italy's most important business centers.

High-speed travel is not news in Europe. France launched the first TGV service in 1981, between Paris and Lyon, shortening a five-hour drive to two hours and 40 minutes. Germany's InterCity Express trains began service in 1991 and Spain started its first fast trains in 1992 to coincide with the Seville Expo that year.

The Spanish railway's high-speed service from Madrid to Barcelona took off in February, going after a chunk of Europe's busiest air route, which registered 4.7 million passengers in 2006.

The 400-mile (650-kilometer) trip by rail takes two hours and 38 minutes -- well under the three-hour benchmark for attracting frequent fliers.

Italy began its first-high-speed service on the Rome-Naples route in 2005.

The future will be connecting high-speed service with neighboring countries -- but that seems a while off, said Petrocelli.

Work on the hotly contested high-speed TAV line between Turin and Lyon in neighboring France was halted due to protests before the 2006 Winter Olympic Games -- and still has not resumed. The stretch is part of a European-wide project to connect Lisbon, Portugal and Kiev, Ukraine, by train.

------

Associated Press writers John Leicester contributed from Paris, Matt Moore from Berlin and Daniel Woolls from Madrid.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 12:50 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Italy began its first-high-speed service on the Rome-Naples route in 2005.
Rome-Florence route, 1988. First purposely built HSL in Europe (1978-1993), second HS service after the TGV.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 02:41 PM   #188
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Federico, I think there's an issue of time inconsistency here: by the standards these days (endorsed and proffered by the European Union...) for a line to classify as "high speed" you should be able to drive at least 250 km/h throughout. As far as I remember it is only on the northern half of the Direttissima that you can reach such speeds? I think this line counted as high speed when it was inaugurated, but not by the standards of our time.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 03:18 PM   #189
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The Direttissima (Rome-Florence HSL) has a 250 km/h speed limit almost on its whole lenght and some slower stretches are being upgraded.

When the first stretch was opened in 1977, the speed was limited to 180 km/h (later upgraded to 200 km/h) due to the lack of proper signalling and HS train stocks. Of course that's not HS, but the infrastructure is nevertheless the same as today.

In 1988 the first Pendolinos entered into service and the line (which was nearly completed at the time) was upgraded at 250 km/h. That was the first HS service in Italy, the third in the world after the Shinkansen and the TGV. Way before the Rome-Naples line in 2005.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 05:34 PM   #190
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Ah, I see. I didn't realise that the southern part of the line was upgraded in 1988. But in that case, please tell me one thing: back in the days when FS still had a TAV site there was express reference to upgradings of the Diretissima in order to shave some minutes (a few minutes - not many) of the travel time between Rome and Florence. What kind of upgradings were they, if the line is already equipped for 250 km/h? And, in case you know, are these upgradings - whatever they are - currently progressing? I ask because as I remember it the improvements on this line were necessary to reduce travel times to the "magic three hours" on the future Milan-Rome service.

A separated but related question, in case anyone knows: are the travel times on the new Italian HSLs going to be affected by the implementation of new types of highspeed trains? I ask because the original 3 hours for Milan-Rome seemed to me a bit unambitious considering the length of the track. (For comparison: the 640 km Madrid-Barcelone in less than 2h40.) I was told by an Italian friend that this was partly because the old HS trains - the ETR 500 series - accelerates so famously slowly at speeds above 200 km/h. When the line passes through cities like Bologna and Florence this is of course a huge handicap. But... I'd have thought that with the new Pendolinos which are a comparatively lightweight train doing 250 km/h, not to mention NTV buying the new AGVs, the effective speed on the Italian HSLs should be about to increase. Does anyone know more?
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Old December 16th, 2008, 06:26 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Ah, I see. I didn't realise that the southern part of the line was upgraded in 1988. But in that case, please tell me one thing: back in the days when FS still had a TAV site there was express reference to upgradings of the Diretissima in order to shave some minutes (a few minutes - not many) of the travel time between Rome and Florence. What kind of upgradings were they, if the line is already equipped for 250 km/h? And, in case you know, are these upgradings - whatever they are - currently progressing? I ask because as I remember it the improvements on this line were necessary to reduce travel times to the "magic three hours" on the future Milan-Rome service.

A separated but related question, in case anyone knows: are the travel times on the new Italian HSLs going to be affected by the implementation of new types of highspeed trains? I ask because the original 3 hours for Milan-Rome seemed to me a bit unambitious considering the length of the track. (For comparison: the 640 km Madrid-Barcelone in less than 2h40.) I was told by an Italian friend that this was partly because the old HS trains - the ETR 500 series - accelerates so famously slowly at speeds above 200 km/h. When the line passes through cities like Bologna and Florence this is of course a huge handicap. But... I'd have thought that with the new Pendolinos which are a comparatively lightweight train doing 250 km/h, not to mention NTV buying the new AGVs, the effective speed on the Italian HSLs should be about to increase. Does anyone know more?
Unfortunately I haven't any informations to answer your first question, but for the second one -as far as I've read on the italian tav thread- the limit of 300km/h is also given because of the infrastructure and not only because fo the trains.
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Last edited by Perennial Quest; December 16th, 2008 at 06:28 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old December 16th, 2008, 07:05 PM   #192
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For the second question: the 3 hours time on Milan-Rome is how it will long from Dec. 2009 when Bologna-Firenze HSL will be completed
But HS trains will share the tracks with traditional rail though while crossing Bologna and Florence, which slow the run in these two points.. we have to wait 2011 or 2012 (I think) to see both new underground HS city bypass completed, with new two underground HS stations to have less than 3 h. even with a max. speed of 300 km/h

Anyway I think it could be possible they could upgrade some stretces to 350 km/h or so: as I posted in previous pages ETR 500 could reach even a speed of 355 km/h, NTV (Trenitalia competitor for HS) will have new Agv wich could run at 360 km/h.. and Trenitalia itself probably will buy a 360 km/h new train (probably Hitachi)
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Old December 16th, 2008, 07:31 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Ah, I see. I didn't realise that the southern part of the line was upgraded in 1988. But in that case, please tell me one thing: back in the days when FS still had a TAV site there was express reference to upgradings of the Diretissima in order to shave some minutes (a few minutes - not many) of the travel time between Rome and Florence. What kind of upgradings were they, if the line is already equipped for 250 km/h? And, in case you know, are these upgradings - whatever they are - currently progressing? I ask because as I remember it the improvements on this line were necessary to reduce travel times to the "magic three hours" on the future Milan-Rome service.
Those upgrades will cut the travel time one the Direttissima from 1h 35min to 1h 20min.
It's basically an upgrade on the signalling, overhead wire system, superstructures and telecom system to harmonize them with the new HS lines.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 07:33 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
For the second question: the 3 hours time on Milan-Rome is how it will long from Dec. 2009 when Bologna-Firenze HSL will be completed
But HS trains will share the tracks with traditional rail though while crossing Bologna and Florence, which slow the run in these two points.. we have to wait 2011 or 2012 (I think) to see both new underground HS city bypass completed, with new two underground HS stations to have less than 3 h. even with a max. speed of 300 km/h
When the urban bypasses in Bologna and Florence will be completed, travel time for non-stop trains between Rome and Milan will be 2h 30min.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 09:01 PM   #195
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Time for an updated map (dec. 2008)

deep blue indicates operative HS stretches

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Old December 17th, 2008, 01:50 PM   #196
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As I posted in previous pages ETR 500 could reach even a speed of 355 km/h, NTV (Trenitalia competitor for HS) will have new Agv wich could run at 360 km/h.. and Trenitalia itself probably will buy a 360 km/h new train (probably Hitachi)
Yeah, but if you take a second look at the video clip from the cabin of the train, it accelerates incredibly slowly. For comparison, I was sitting last week in a German ICE3 and it was virtually jumping like a rabbit from 200 km/h to 300 km/h. On very long unbroken stretches this doesn't matter so much, but if you have to slow down in Bologna and Firenze (and, dare I add, in the suburbs of Modena...) then a slow acceleration becomes a major handicap.
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Old December 17th, 2008, 04:40 PM   #197
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I agree on the fact that ETR500 has a slow acceleration at high speeds. Another thing we should think about is that the ETR500 reached 355km/h during test runs. So we don't know how it would behave if it should reach that speed usually, during normal operation. Mostly regarding reliability and wear.
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Old December 17th, 2008, 06:00 PM   #198
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According Trenitalia official website

Quote:
Frecciarossa - velocità 300/350 km all’ora

Frecciargento - velocità 250/285 km all’ora

Frecciabianca - velocità 220/230 km all’ora
http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...0080a3e90aRCRD

Anyway the test was with a conventional train ETR 500, not modified
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Old December 17th, 2008, 06:21 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
... I'd have thought that with the new Pendolinos which are a comparatively lightweight train doing 250 km/h, not to mention NTV buying the new AGVs, the effective speed on the Italian HSLs should be about to increase. Does anyone know more?
However, don't forget that Italy is a country full of mountains, on the contrary of other countries, therefore in many stretches it will not be possible to run over 300 km/h and sometimes over 250 km/h, due to the tunnels. For example, the Bologna-Firenze will be about 78 km long, 73 of which are in tunnel.
In these conditions 3 hours between Milan and Rome is a very short time.
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Old December 17th, 2008, 09:48 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post

Firenze-Roma was designed for a maximum speed of 250 km/h

It was the first HSR stretch in Italy (and in Europe) built in '70s
Now there is a project to upgrade it to allow 300 km/h speed
no, it will remain @ 250 km/h because of the short curve radius (~3 km) while new italian HSL, like LGV Med and East in France have minimum radius of 5 km
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