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Old December 18th, 2008, 06:31 PM   #201
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Old December 20th, 2008, 03:01 PM   #202
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Quote:
Frecciarossa - velocità 300/350 km all’ora

Frecciargento - velocità 250/285 km all’ora

Frecciabianca - velocità 220/230 km all’ora
300-250-200
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Old December 20th, 2008, 05:59 PM   #203
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[IMG]http://i41.************/18k7rb.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i43.************/nn66ac.jpg[/IMG]
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Old December 20th, 2008, 06:10 PM   #204
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What is the name of that bridge and where is it located?
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Old December 20th, 2008, 06:14 PM   #205
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It's the bridge on the Po River, in San Rocco al Porto, on the Milan-Bologna HSL.

http://maps.google.it/maps?f=q&hl=it...rocco+al+porto
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Old December 21st, 2008, 04:48 AM   #206
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TEST @ OVER 300 KM/H ON THE NEW HSL BOLOGNA-FLORENCE (78 km): OFFICIAL OPENING IN DECEMBER 2009




what effect into tunnels!!
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 02:43 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post

According Trenitalia official website



http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...0080a3e90aRCRD

Anyway the test was with a conventional train ETR 500, not modified

The ETR500 (first called Eurostar Italia, then Eurostar AV, and now re-branded Frecciarossa – Red arrow) is a conventional train with 2 locos (top and tail) enclosing 12 carriages.
It is too heavy and underpowered.

On the Italian HSLs built with the French philosophy it can develop only 8800 kW (with two locomotives active) and the train weighs 660tons, which means that is has a maximum power ratio of 13.7 kW /ton on 25 kW/ac, and 6.7 kW/ton on 3000 volt dc, with one panto raised.

The TGV’s, the AGV and the Velaro have about 22/kW/ton.

The Japanese Nozomis have far more power per ton than any Italian train mentioned here.

The ETR500 has a very sluggish acceleration from 160km/h to 300km/h and, from 160 km/h to 300km/h it has to run about 50 km!


The ETR500 is a 20 years old train. The FS engineers did not want it. The politician wanted it.

The ETR500 has another drawback.

Under the conventional 3000 volt dc it requires two pantographs to draw more than 6000kw. On the conventional lines fed on 3000 volt dc the 2 pantographs can be raised up to a speed of 130km/h.

On the Rome –Florence DD the 2 pantographs can be raised up to 220km/h.

Under 3000 volt dc one pantograph feeds only one loco which develops 4400 kW : too little for a train weighing 660 tons.

Thus on the Florence Rome DD its max sped is 220 km/h.

The pendolino family (ETRs 460, 485, 600) have a top speed of 250 km/h, but they can be pushed to 260-275 km/h. They are lighter, and they have better power/weight ratio than the ETR500.

Therefore the pendolinos can run on the DD at 250-270km/h with one pantograph raised whilst the ETR500 cannot run at those speeds.

It would have made sense to buy TGV Duplex or TG Pos Duplex. They are lighter, cheaper and have better performances than the ETR500.

It is true to say that the ETR500 Y, the ETR500 used for testing the HS lines, on reduced composition (2 loco + 3 carriages) has reached 355 km/h on the new HSL Milan –Bologna.

But, perhaps, it is worth to mention that it took 10 minutes and 44 second to pass from 199km/h to 355 km/h.
Also there were problems with the catenary and the pantograph.

From Milan Central station to the record speed of 355 km/h, the ETR500 Y run for 106 km!!!!!!!!!!!.




Italian new high speed lines

The
1- Milan – Bologna
2- Bologna - Florence
3- Rome - Naples
4- Turin - Milan

The maximum project speed of these lines is 300 km/h with some restrictions at 240-250 km/h. For instance on the Milan Bologna AV . Other restriction to 220 km/h are on the two segments of the the Milan-Venice- already built.


Milan Bologna - Historical line;
it is 219 km long of which 132 capabel of 200 km/h running. 20 years ago there was a proposal to bypass the seven intermediate stations (Modena, Parma, etc) by building section of line avoiding the crossing in these seven stations. With a modest cost 70 km of bypasses wuold have been built, thus allowing non stop trains to have 200km of line over 219 of its entire lenght capabel of sustaining 200km/h runnings. It was a cheap upgrade and thus dismissed. This upgrade of the historical Milan-Bologna is still necessary even after the construction of the so called HSL Milan-Bologna

Milan Bologna HSL

From Milan Central station to Lambrate 60 km/h (first 4 km from Milan Central Station)
From Milan Lambrate to Milan Rogoredo(?) 140 km/h (km 14 from MI- Central Station)
From Milan Rogoredo to Melegnano: 6 km at 200km/h
Then at km 20 from Milan Centrale the HSL begins .
The line has a top project speed of 300 km for about 150 km.

Then there are 34 km around Modena which can be taken at a maximum speed of 240 km/h.
Then, South of Modena, at Lavino, (about 10 km before Bologna Central Station) the catenary is feed at 3000 volt dc and the speed drops at 200 km/h.


The underground crossing of Bologna will occur – when the underground station is finished - at a greatly reduced speed , probably 60km/h , or 100km/h in the more optimistic option.

Furthermore, after the underground crossing of Bologna Central Station there will be a sharp curve which will limit the speed around 60km/h.

Then, to accelerate from 60 km/h to 250/300 km/h will be very time consuming.



Bologna -Florence

The new HSL Bologna – Florence will be about 78 km long , and at its extremities i.e.: Bologna and Florence, the old line will be used.

The historical line Bologna Florence is 97 Km/long . In the last 18 km has already 4 tracks.

In 1939 with the ETR200, the distance between Florence and Bologna was covered in 35 minutes. It would have been sufficient to upgrade this line to allow the transit of about 500 trains a day. The main problem limiting the capacity of the historical Bologna-Florence is its lack of switching points from one track to another which would allow a fast train to change track to overtake a slow train..
This upgrade would have cost very little.
Furthermore although in some points the Historical line and the new HSL run almost parallel there is no interconnection between the new Bologna-Florence HSL and the old line!
.
When the New Florence AV station (Firenze Belfiore) will become operational (year 2015??) the high speed trains not calling at Firenze Belfiore will transit through the station at 60 km/h!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This does not compare favourably with the French TGV Stations.

In France, and in other countries, trains not calling at certain stations , cross those stations at speed ranging from 200 km/h to 360 km/h. (The Avignon TGV Station was passed at 366 km/h).



Turin – Milan. 125 km of new HSL on the total line length of 153 km.
At the moment the HSL section opened is only 85 km long.

The ETR500 used in this line is of reduced formation of 2 locomotives + 8 carriages.
To accelerate from 160km/h to 300 the ETR500 has to run for about 50 km.

Although it reaches for a few seconds 299-300 km/h, the journey time of a non-stop Turin- Milan AV is 1h 22 minutes.
On the old Turin-Milan, the Paris-Milan TGV which is limited at 160 km/h and makes three stops covers the 153 km from Turin to Milan in 1h 26 minutes.

In the early ’90 the old pendolino ETR 450 was doing the 153 km from Turin to Milan in 1 h 12 minutes, on the historical line.

Florence – Rome DD

The old historical line is 316 km long. It has and index of tortuosity (i.e: curves) of over 50% with curves allowing top speeds of 95-105 km/h. The construction of a new fast line interconnected with the old one was a priority . Hence the DD, which has a top speed of 250 km/h.
At the end points, the 4 interconnected tracks are already insufficient. Namely between Rome and Orte (83 km) and Alto Mugello-Florence.

Hence the need of 2 extra tracks exclusively dedicated to Very High speed trains (360-400 km/h).
Also the shortest line between Milan –Rome (and Naples) is Not via Florence-Bologna.

The shortest line between Rome and Milan is from West of Rome , then it continues passing between Empoli and Florence, where it will connected to the existing lines for Florence on one side, and for Empoli-Pisa on the other side . (VHSL Rome-Piacenza)

Then it will continue straight up to Modena (interconnection) and then to Piacenza.

This new very high speed line would also considerably improve journey times not only between Rome to Milan but also with Genova (at Empoli-Siena interconnection), and with Turin (at Piacenza). At Piacenza the new Line will be joining the present HSL MI-BO.

Then with this new VHSL less than 2h15 minutes between Milan and Rome, and 3h 10 minutes between Milan -Naples will be feasible.

With the completion of Milan –Bologna and Bologna Florence HSL(in 2009) , the journey between Milan and Rome will not be achieved under 3 hours. At best some non- stop trains will cover the distance between Milan and Rome in 2h 55 minutes. Not fast enough to win all the airplane business between the two Cities.

Pisa, via a new VHSL will be at 1h 20 minutes from Rome.

Turin, via a new VHSL up to Piacenza and then Piacenza –Voghera-Alessandria-Asti will be 2 ½ hours from Rome.
A further reduction in journey time between Rome and Turin will be achieved if the section Piacenza –Alessandria –Asti is upgraded to 200-220 km/h.


Trenitalia
The top commercial speed for the ETR500 (now called Frecciarossa) on the new HSL’s is 250km/h.

The new HSLs built in Italy with the “French philosophy” have a thin catenary and the ondulatory problems occur at around 350-370 km/h with loss of contact between catenary and pantograph.
Therefore, unless a stronger catenary is installed it will be impossible to have commercial runs at 350-360 km/h on the new Italian HSLs.


On the contrary, the new French HSLs have ondulatory movement of the catenary at around 620 km/h (Ligne LGV Est).

The Paris –Lille-Calais was built with the possibility of raising its top speed up to 360 km/h. The same is true for the Lyon Marseille, and also for the LGV Atlantique.

In the German HSLs the ondulatory movements of the catenary occur at around 591 km/h.
Italy has no train yet capable of running on commercial speeds of 350-360 km/h.
The new High Speed Train capable of 350/360km/h has not yet been chosen.
At the moment Trenitalia has not even have enough ETR500 “Frecciarossa” sufficiently maintained to allow to all ETR500 top speeds of 250 km/h. On the newly opened Milan-Bologna HSL some ETR500 “Frecciarossa” are limited at 200km/h.

It is rumoured that the new Italian 350 km/h HST it will be the “Zefiro” to be built by built by the Consortium AnsaldoBreda/Bombardier.
The Zefiro is still on the conceptual phase ( i:e: drawings on a PDF format).

The specification for the 2nd series of the ETR500 (Now Frecciarossa) is clearly stated on Trenitalia website as having a maximum speed of 300 km/h.
Maximum speed does not mean maximum commercial speed.

Even the top speed of the AGV bought by NTV has been downgraded to 300 km/h.

Given the very short distance between medium size towns (100,000 – 400,000 inhabitants) Italy needs more trains capable of very high acceleration , such as the Talgo 350, rather than having train with a very hypothetical top speeds of 300-360 km/h .


The Talgo 350 can accelerate from 160 to 300 km/h in about a minute.

These type of considerations should not be dismissed lightly in view of the construction of the Turin-Novara- Vercelli -Milan- Brescia –Verona, Vicenza, Padua, Mestre Venice –Trieste.

Perhaps is worth noting that in this transversal HSL, Novara is 90 km from Turin and 50 from Milan. On the Venice side, Brescia is 83 km from Milan, Verona 60 km from Brescia, etc.

Hence, in this case, extremely fast acceleration is vital. Brescia, Verona, Padua are towns of 400,000 inhabitants. This HSL should be considered as a very fast metropolitan line.

Furthermore the new Talgo Avril will have a top speed of 380 km/h and will weigh less than 300 tons.
It will carry 400-500 passengers. Ideal for Milan- Brescia-Verona Padua, Mestre-Venice-Trieste.

Or, in alternative the Nozomi 500.
Or the TGV Pos Duplex.
Or the AGV, etc


The industrial triangle Turin –Milan-Genova.

Economically and industrially these three towns are one.
The all have over 1,000,000 inhabitants (Milan over 4 millions with its hinterland).
The are about 150 km from each other. Genova is a major Italian port (together with Savona which is 50 km west of Genova, towards Nice).

They are not adequately served by efficient and fast rail services
They have ben talking of linking these three large industrial towns with fast rail links since the early '60.




Sorry for the typos
.
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 03:35 AM   #208
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Quote:
from 160 km/h to 300km/h it has to run about 50 km
ok,ETR500 is slower than other high speed trains in terms of acceleration, but NOT so slower.
it's similar to ICE 2 in this sense.
for example, in the HSL turin-novara (first part completed of HSL turin-milan) long about 85 km, after 15-20 km from the beginning of HSL, the train goes @ 300 km/h (not always).

Quote:
lthough it reaches for a few seconds 299-300 km/h, the journey time of a non-stop Turin- Milan AV is 1h 22 minutes.
that's because of the very slow interconnection between HSL and historical line in novara @ 30 km/h. in december 2009 the line will be completed and the trip time from turin porta nuova to milano centrale (main central stations) is reduced to 1h (50 minutes from turin porta susa).

Quote:
On the old Turin-Milan, the Paris-Milan TGV which is limited at 160 km/h and makes three stops covers the 153 km from Turin to Milan in 1h 26 minutes.
TGVs start from turin porta susa station. ETR500 that runs on the HSL, starts from the porta nuova station. so you must add 10 minutes to the TGVs to be equivalent to ETR500 (1h36)
Quote:

When the New Florence AV station (Firenze Belfiore) will become operational (year 2015??) the high speed trains not calling at Firenze Belfiore will transit through the station at 60 km/h!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
for reaching very high transit speed in these type of cities (florence and bologna for example), it is necessary to build an outside city interconnection (like paris), but it's much more complicated due the lack of space near the cities, where building the station in a favourauble position.
on the other side, mantaining the central station in the city centre for maximum interoperabilty, it's impossible to reach very high speed due to the urban track (even if it's underground)
the french model of HSL stations will be applied for the novara and reggio emilia stations ( this last one on the milan-bologna HSL), which are smaller cities like avignon, valence and some other on french HSLs.



Quote:
With the completion of Milan –Bologna and Bologna Florence HSL(in 2009) , the journey between Milan and Rome will not be achieved under 3 hours. At best some non- stop trains will cover the distance between Milan and Rome in 2h 55 minutes. Not fast enough to win all the airplane business between the two Cities.

Pisa, via a new VHSL will be at 1h 20 minutes from Rome.

Turin, via a new VHSL up to Piacenza and then Piacenza –Voghera-Alessandria-Asti will be 2 ½ hours from Rome.
A further reduction in journey time between Rome and Turin will be achieved if the section Piacenza –Alessandria –Asti is upgraded to 200-220 km/h.
after the completion of all new italian HSLs, it can be possible travelling from milano rogoredo ("gate" station of milan) to roma tiburtina ("gate" station of rome) in 2h30'.

concerning the proposition of other HSLs, it would be wonderful, but actually there are no funds and, however, the population served by these new lines is not enough to be worth one's while.


Quote:
The top commercial speed for the ETR500 (now called Frecciarossa) on the new HSL’s is 250 km/h.


the present record is 355km/h as you wrote before

Quote:
The new High Speed Train capable of 350/360km/h has not yet been chosen.
NTV (first alternative private railway company in italy) has already ordered 25 AGVs for 2011 when it will start the service. for trenitalia job order we have to wait yet...but AGV is not the favourite.
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 09:21 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post



ok,ETR500 is slower than other high speed trains in terms of acceleration, but NOT so slower.
it's similar to ICE 2 in this sense.

Reply : exactly

for example, in the HSL turin-novara (first part completed of HSL turin-milan) long about 85 km, after 15-20 km from the beginning of HSL, the train goes @ 300 km/h (not always).

Reply not true. The graphic shows that it reaches 299 km/h after 50 kms!




that's because of the very slow interconnection between HSL and historical line in novara @ 30 km/h. in december 2009 the line will be completed and the trip time from turin porta nuova to milano centrale (main central stations) is reduced to 1h (50 minutes from turin porta susa).



Reply:

1 hour for 153 km = 153 km/h.
On the Ligne Est the TGV covers 176,6 kms from station to station (start ad stop) in about 36 minutes and the average COMMERCIAL SPEED in excess of 279 km/h!




TGVs start from turin porta susa station. ETR500 that runs on the HSL, starts from the porta nuova station. so you must add 10 minutes to the TGVs to be equivalent to ETR500 (1h36)
Reply:
But the TGV stop at Porta Susa, Vercelli, Novara and Milan Central. It also travel on the historical line at a top speed of 160 km'/h.

In the historical line there are several speed restrictions (example: Novara station - 90 km/h)...




for reaching very high transit speed in these type of cities (florence and bologna for example), it is necessary to build an outside city interconnection (like paris), but it's much more complicated due the lack of space near the cities, where building the station in a favourauble position.

Reply:

NO . After Lavino it should have been possbile to continue with an avoiding line north of Bologna with a top speed of 220 km/h connecting to the Florence HSL at san Rufillo and also with a section to Ancona. This is called avoiding line, bypassing line, or similar (ceinture grande vitesse). The trains would have been able to call at Bologna Central and also for the non-stop Milan-Rome and Milan Ancona to avoid the crossing of Bologna Cntral Station.
Aso the excavation of underground station of Bologna is causing severe damages to the local buildings.



on the other side, mantaining the central station in the city centre for maximum interoperabilty, it's impossible to reach very high speed due to the urban track (even if it's underground)

Reply
The central station would have maintained its interoperablity for those trains calling at Bologna. Even with the underground station under Bologna Central (only four tracks, for stopping H trains and 2 for non stopping trains) Bologna will not be capable of handling the extra traffic.
------------------

the french model of HSL stations will be applied for the novara and reggio
Reggio emilia stations ( this last one on the milan-bologna HSL), which are smaller cities like avignon, valence and some other on french HSLs.




Reply
Reggio Emilia HS Station is not connected to the rest of the rail network.
It is a "gare des bettraves" (a beetroot station), a station in the middle of nowhere






after the completion of all new italian HSLs, it can be possible travelling from milano rogoredo ("gate" station of milan) to roma tiburtina ("gate" station of rome) in 2h30'.



Reply:
Milan Roagoredo is 14 Km south of Milan Central.
Roma Tiburtina is about at the same distance from Roma termini.

From Rogoredo to Milan Central it will take at least 20 minutes. Perhaps it should be remebered that most trains and connections will start and or terminate a Milan Central Station. or at Roma Termini.
Milan Central Station is the most important station in Italy.

It will be like terminating the TGV Transmanche (London St Pancras - Paris Gare du Nord) at Bromely South (in the Uk) and,in France, 16 km outside Gare du Nord. With the only difference that London and Paris have better and more public transport (train and underground) than either Milan or Rome, whose local rail, and metro network is still extremely underdeveloped.

A Milan-Rogoredo Rome- Tiburtina non-stop in 2h 30 minute implies to add another hour, or 1 and 1/2 hour if you arrive at Milan Central and have to go to Rome Termini

Hence this train Milan-Rogoredo - Rome tiburtina would add another hour or 90 minutes to the end points.
For instance those people who travel by day from Paris to Milan with the TGV will arrive at Milan Central and - if from Milan Central - they will have to change train to Rome Tiburtina to arrive to Rome Termini....it will be disastruous.




concerning the proposition of other HSLs, it would be wonderful, but actually there are no funds and, however, the population served by these new lines is not enough to be worth one's while.

Reply:
Really???





the present record is 355km/h as you wrote before .

Reply
A record made in a newly built line with a train of reduced composition IS NOT THE MAXIMUM COMMERCIAL SPEED ESTABLISHED BY TRENITALIA FOR THE MILAN-BOLOGNA AV FAST SERVICE

FOR THE TIME BEING THE MAXIMUM COMMERCIAL SPEED FROM MILAN TO BOLOGNA AV FAST IS 250 KM/H.
PLEASE REFER TO TRENITALIA SCHEDULE AND OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS

INDEED ON THE MILAN - BOLOGNA HSL SOME ETR 500 FRECCIAROSSA AV FAST, HAVE A MAXIMUM speed of 200 km/h , due to poor maintenance of the ETR500 AV FRECCIAROSSA


Keeping repainting and rebranding the ETR500 is not a substitute for proper maintenance.

A simple trip on the new HS service will confirm you that the top speed achieved by some of the ETR 500 rebranded and repainting is a mere 254 km/h, with a slow down to 220 km a Reggio ad 230km at Modena.

Indeed some of these AV Fast arrive at Bologna Central station 15 -20 minutes late!!
On the TAV project, the travelling time on the Milan-Bologna HSL was supposed to be between 55 and 60 minutes. Only some ETR500 can make the journey in 65 minutes. Some other ETRs 500 make the journey in 80-85 minutes.
Very bad for a journey of 219 km, station to station.

Suffice to say that any modern locomotive, such as the Taurus, with 10-12 carriages having a top speed of 200km/h could make the Milan-Bologna journey on the new HSL in just 70 minutes.

It is true that Trenitalia (also nicknamed by many Italian users: trenitaglia = (traincutter) and Treniraglia (train-bray, train caterwaul) has a peculiar way of calculating the late runnings.

But this deserves a topic on its own


NTV (first alternative private railway company in italy) has already ordered 25 AGVs for 2011 when it will start the service. for trenitalia job order we have to wait yet...but AGV is not the favourite.
Reply:
NTV has bough a downgraded version of the AGV with a top speed of 300 km/h NTV had no choices since the Maximum speeds technically achievable on certain sections ot he new Italian HSl are between 220- and 300 km/h.
The maximum top commercial speed allowed is fixed to 250 km/h This has been known for over ten years. These data were also published on the Trenitalia web site.


Why you Italians , resident in Italy, insist in misinforming on international web sites about the catastrophic situation of the so called TAV. In 1990m trains were much faster, better and cheaper. You are still mentioning the Bridge on the Messina Straight and keep putting on the net various graphic representation of the said Bridge which will not be constructed for at least 50 years.


The project has been rejected after the first Berlusconi governement.
Lets not forget that the doubling of the Bologna-Verona was pre-planned during the construction of the first track (abou 100 years ago?).

The lay down of the second track has started almost 20 years ago. 112 km of track in the flattest plain of Italy not completed after almost 20 years? Less than haf a mile of track a year?

Youought to remember that in any other so called civilised western nation, scandal like this would have caused political upheaval . In your domestic web-sites you call these political malpractices "Biblical times"....

Also,on the Italian web sites you tell very different stories. And on the Italian web-sites you are very bitter of the state of affairs ot the rail transport in Italy


I do not know of any Italian resident in Italy who is happy about the HSL lines the TAV, etc.

Furthermore, the newly built miserable Italian HSL's have cost from six to ten times more per miles than the HSLs built in Spain, Germany, France, Japan., etc ., etc.

Also was it really necessary to build SIX interconnections between the 182 kms of HSL running between Milan and Bologna?


For what? To serve unbuilt stations, such the one at Reggio Emilia?.

Modena (37 km north of Bologna) has 2 interconnections. , Lavino 10 Kms north of Bologna has one interconnection...!!!!! Etc.

At best what has been done in Italy is an example of how NOT to built HSL. It was a mere exercise of squandering money at the expense of both the taxpayers and travelleres.

As an Italian resident abroad, I am ashamed of this squandering of money and loss of talents.
I am also ashamed of my felows Italians, resident in Italy who disseminate mis-information on international web-sites and international forum, perhaps to massage their frustrated egos.


Now when I have to come to Italy, which is quite often, I travel interantionally by plane ad domestically by bus or taxi, or domestic planes - all means of transportation which I detest.

I adore trains as long as they are not Trenitalia trains. Having to travel in Italy by public means has become a nightmare.Thirld wordl airports. not adeqautely interconnected with other mode of transportation. No decent refreshin facilities where you can seat and have a decent cupo of coffe ad a decent sandwich. Try a Stanstead to Bologna or Rimini or Forli and then once landed try to reach Ferrara or Padua from Rimini or Bologna by train. You will experience the ordeal

Or try Ferrara-Senigallia, or Ferrara Milan- Bergamo by Train with a leg of the journey on AV. That's is pure Hell.
Last but not least in Italy , even on the new HSLs you have not yet discovered high platforms. You still have to climb up to the carraiges.

Why don't you learn from Japan, China, etc?

After all the High platforms were invented over 150 years ago. When the British invented the train.



With the money waisted in 800 km of unfinished semi-fast lines you could have built 8000 km of superfast lines.


In th future I would expect from you more acurate information.

Sorry for the typos but I have been up all night.

Last edited by joseph1951; December 22nd, 2008 at 09:53 AM. Reason: too many typos
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 10:52 AM   #210
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Eurostar Italians also run on existing lines as I have seen Eurostar Italias in Venice and the there are no HSLs to Venice yet
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 10:54 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
It's the bridge on the Po River, in San Rocco al Porto, on the Milan-Bologna HSL.

http://maps.google.it/maps?f=q&hl=it...rocco+al+porto
Awesome bridge!
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 12:52 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951
Why you Italians , resident in Italy, insist in misinforming on international web sites about the catastrophic situation of the so called TAV. In 1990m trains were much faster, better and cheaper.You are still mentioning the Bridge on the Messina Straight and keep putting on the net various graphic representation of the said Bridge which will not be constructed for at least 50 years.


The project has been rejected after the first Berlusconi governement.
You're makin' misinformation now, as the Bridge is scheduled to be built
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 12:57 PM   #213
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Scheduled to be built is meaningless, especially when there's an economic recession ravaging the planet. I'll believe it when they start pouring concrete.
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 01:22 PM   #214
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The bridge won't be built anytime soon (thanks God).

At any rate, the TAV project is at a good stage, but it's still far from being completed. Moaning now about how long did it take, or about how small are the advantages it offers compared to old lines while all urban bypasses are still to be completed is pointless, just pointless. How many years were necessary for the TGV to reach Marseilles? Almost 30, last time I checked.

In four years will be possibile to travel from Milan to Naples on brand new trains in 3h 30min. Period.

Last edited by Federicoft; December 22nd, 2008 at 01:36 PM.
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 04:16 PM   #215
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Joseph1951, where do you live now?
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 05:32 PM   #216
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Quote:
for example, in the HSL turin-novara (first part completed of HSL turin-milan) long about 85 km, after 15-20 km from the beginning of HSL, the train goes @ 300 km/h (not always).

Reply not true. The graphic shows that it reaches 299 km/h after 50 kms!
do you travel often on this line?? I did it about 5-6 times and I can say what I've written before.
you can't take only one example to prove this.

Quote:
1 hour for 153 km = 153 km/h.
On the Ligne Est the TGV covers 176,6 kms from station to station (start ad stop) in about 36 minutes and the average COMMERCIAL SPEED in excess of 279 km/h!
ok, I can say you that the 85 km of HSL turin-novara (with acceleration and deceleration) are covered in 22-23 minutes: so the average speed is about 240 km/h. but, as I told you before, there is a slow interconnection yet.
and some times trains arrive in milano centrale 5 minutes early or more.
so we can say that trenitalia is quite conservative (for fear of delays) when organizing the timetable, as proved also with the ETR500 from milan to rome in 3h30' when the real time is just 3h15', if no problem occurs during the journey .and this is common for all italian railways. that is not a very good thing however.


Quote:
Reply
Reggio Emilia HS Station is not connected to the rest of the rail network.
It is a "gare des bettraves" (a beetroot station), a station in the middle of nowhere
and french TGV stations are in the city centre in your opinion?? or they are quite outside??so, the situation is exactly the same.

Quote:
NO . After Lavino it should have been possbile to continue with an avoiding line north of Bologna with a top speed of 220 km/h connecting to the Florence HSL at san Rufillo and also with a section to Ancona. This is called avoiding line, bypassing line, or similar (ceinture grande vitesse). The trains would have been able to call at Bologna Central and also for the non-stop Milan-Rome and Milan Ancona to avoid the crossing of Bologna Cntral Station.
Aso the excavation of underground station of Bologna is causing severe damages to the local buildings.
severail damages?? I don't believe. however, your suggest may be good, if there will be sufficient conditions and no problem with local authorities.I say this because the slowdown @ 240km/h near modena is due to the municipality which didn't want the railway track inside its territory: so it had to be built a curve around the border of the town


Quote:
Suffice to say that any modern locomotive, such as the Taurus, with 10-12 carriages having a top speed of 200km/h could make the Milan-Bologna journey on the new HSL in just 70 minutes.
@ 200 km/h you cover the HSL in minimum 1h15'-1h20'.


Quote:
The central station would have maintained its interoperablity for those trains calling at Bologna. Even with the underground station under Bologna Central (only four tracks, for stopping H trains and 2 for non stopping trains) Bologna will not be capable of handling the extra traffic.
this is false, because with the new station there will be not any problem of conflict with regional trains as actually happens and suburban service can be increased.


Quote:
A Milan-Rogoredo Rome- Tiburtina non-stop in 2h 30 minute implies to add another hour, or 1 and 1/2 hour if you arrive at Milan Central and have to go to Rome Termini
what!?!?!?!? an another hour to reach the main stations?? do you think this really?? this is totally FALSE

this is a testimony from a forumer of FOL (http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtop...goredo#p665824)

18.59: starting from milano centrale
19.03: transit at milano lambrate
19:06: transit at milano ROGOREDO

so adding the pause of stop at milano rogoredo, in 10-11' you go from milano centrale to rogoredo.
and from roma tiburtina to roma termini the trip time is 8' (regional trains taken as example).

so you must add 20 minutes to reach the central stations not 1h30'... what do you want to demonstrate?


Quote:
FOR THE TIME BEING THE MAXIMUM COMMERCIAL SPEED FROM MILAN TO BOLOGNA AV FAST IS 250 KM/H.
FALSE. you can say that with present timetable ,it can be sufficient travelling @ 250 km/h without any delay, but the commercial speed is 300km/h.

Quote:
INDEED ON THE MILAN - BOLOGNA HSL SOME ETR 500 FRECCIAROSSA AV FAST, HAVE A MAXIMUM speed of 200 km/h , due to poor maintenance of the ETR500 AV FRECCIAROSSA
this happens in special cases, NOT always. the normal speed is 300km/h excluding some parts of the track with slowdowns.
since you have mentioned the poor maintenance (with the new naples garage for maintenance of fast trains, these type of problems should not verify themselves like now), I can say you that DB has taken off from service ALL ICE-T trains since the 25th of october due to lack of security guarantees from siemens (do you remeber the tragedy of eschede when over 100 people were killed???).
that's not be comparable with problems that sometimes an ETR500 has.

Quote:
A simple trip on the new HS service will confirm you that the top speed achieved by some of the ETR 500 rebranded and repainting is a mere 254 km/h, with a slow down to 220 km a Reggio ad 230km at Modena.
a simple trip is not sufficient. read some posts of FOL forumers and many of them can prove that the maximum speed is reached (not always however).

Quote:
Only some ETR500 can make the journey in 65 minutes. Some other ETRs 500 make the journey in 80-85 minutes.
NO!! along the new HSL, the major part of ETR500 does the journey in 65', sometimes in 60'.and seldom with delays over 5-10 minutes.
as I told you, trenitalia wants a conservative time.


Quote:
Also was it really necessary to build SIX interconnections between the 182 kms of HSL running between Milan and Bologna?


For what? To serve unbuilt stations, such the one at Reggio Emilia?.

Modena (37 km north of Bologna) has 2 interconnections. , Lavino 10 Kms north of Bologna has one interconnection...!!!!! Etc.

At best what has been done in Italy is an example of how NOT to built HSL. It was a mere exercise of squandering money at the expense of both the taxpayers and travelleres.
italian HSLs are built following the german model with lots of interconnections. they can be used in the future (NOT now) for maximum interoperabily with intercity or cargo trains.
actually they are quite useless and you are right, but in an optic of use for several decades at least, it has been a good thing building them now.


Quote:
With the money waisted in 800 km of unfinished semi-fast lines you could have built 8000 km of superfast lines
uhm... starting from the 12 december 2009 we will not have semi-fast lines however.

Quote:
Furthermore, the newly built miserable Italian HSL's have cost from six to ten times more per miles than the HSLs built in Spain, Germany, France, Japan., etc ., etc.
you are right, especially for compensation costs for all municipality crossed by new lines and lots of interoconnections. however, the bologna-florence HSL, considering the orography of the territory (93% into tunnels for 73 km,a worldwide record), doesn't cost much more than other HSLs.
this is not a good reason however to not building these new lines.

Quote:
Or try Ferrara-Senigallia, or Ferrara Milan- Bergamo by Train with a leg of the journey on AV. That's is pure Hell.
Last but not least in Italy , even on the new HSLs you have not yet discovered high platforms. You still have to climb up to the carraiges.
cargo railway system is underdeveloped in italy unfortunately.
Quote:
In th future I would expect from you more acurate information.
also the same from you.
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Last edited by dreaad; December 27th, 2008 at 04:11 AM.
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Old December 23rd, 2008, 07:44 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
Time for an updated map (dec. 2008)

deep blue indicates operative HS stretches

Nice map. Shouldn't there be a connection from Bologna to Venice on TAV?

Also, are there plans to connect TAV to TGV in France?
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Old December 23rd, 2008, 07:49 PM   #218
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Yes, there is a planned HS line between France and Italy whose construction works should begin soon.
http://www.ltf-sas.com/index2.php?lg_visite=en

TGV trains already run on Italian lines and vice-versa though.
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Old December 23rd, 2008, 07:50 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post

Yes, there is a planned HS line between France and Italy whose construction works should begin soon.
http://www.ltf-sas.com/index2.php?lg_visite=en

TGV trains already run on Italian lines and vice-versa though.
That's good news. I dream of there being a fully integrated European HSR network.
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Old December 23rd, 2008, 08:05 PM   #220
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to connect to the TGV network in france (it's already connected via a slow line, in fact there are 3 couples of TGV between milan/turin and paris), it is necessary to build the high capacity (not speed) turin-lyon line to improve the cargo service. it's foreseen the construction of a 52 km tunnel long across the alps. maximum speed around 200-220 km/h. estimated cost of the entire line about 13 billion €, but there are still many conflicts with local people in the susa valley near turin, where the line crosses the alps.
they don't want for any reason the new line,especially for environment damage and very high costs which don't justify the project.
however,for the only high speed passenger service it's not worthwhile.


between bologna to venice it's not foreseen any HSL, but between verona and bologna the line is being upgraded @ 200 km/h.


it's still in project the HSL between treviglio (near milan) and padua (max speed 250 km/h).
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