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Old December 23rd, 2008, 08:10 PM   #221
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I suggested a Bologna-Venice line so that Venice and Rome would have a direct connection to one an other.
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Old December 23rd, 2008, 08:10 PM   #222
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but there aren't enough money
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Old December 23rd, 2008, 08:31 PM   #223
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Quote:
Train breakdown angers Swiss

The Cisalpino train jointly run by Switzerland and Italy is so unreliable that the Swiss want to take over responsibility for its maintenance.

One of the company's tilting trains broke down in the Lötschberg tunnel in southern Switzerland on Monday, and 200 passengers had to be transferred to a substitute. They suffered a delay of about two hours.

Cisalpino is a joint venture of the Swiss and Italian state railway companies.

Reacting to the latest breakdown, Swiss Federal Railways said on Tuesday that it does not think the Italian side is sufficiently fulfilling its obligations in maintaining the trains.

However, bringing the maintenance to Switzerland could pose contractual problems.

The Swiss have already taken measures to cope with the repeated problems posed by the Cisalpino, frequently running conventional rolling stock on the line instead. But Swiss Federal Railways does not have enough trains to dispense with the tilting trains altogether.

The Cisalpino train has run into problems ever since coming into service 12 years ago. Its fittings are often unreliable, and it frequently runs late.

A new, improved, generation of tilting trains was originally due to be delivered in May 2007; they are now scheduled to come into service in June 2009.
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Old December 23rd, 2008, 09:40 PM   #224
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Joseph1951, where do you live now?
For the las 28 years resident in the UK with long stays in the US of A

Last edited by joseph1951; December 23rd, 2008 at 09:40 PM. Reason: typos
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Old December 23rd, 2008, 09:41 PM   #225
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Nice map. Shouldn't there be a connection from Bologna to Venice on TAV?

Also, are there plans to connect TAV to TGV in France?

NO
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Old December 24th, 2008, 12:15 PM   #226
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About Cisalpino trains: yesterday I arrived at home 2 hours late because the Milano-Zürich trains of 13.10 and 15.10 (or at least the second one) broke down. So the passengers of both trains boarded the 16.10 train: there were 600 people in a train with 450 seats, and even if I had a ticked with a reserved seat it was impossible to board the train: passengers were everyehere, even near the doors and the toilets.

Cisalpino personel asked me to wait for the 17.10 train, but i leaved Milano Centrale 25 minutes late. The 17.35 train also had 35 minutes of delay, the 19.10 (Firenze-Bologna-Milano-Zürich) was 3 hours late because an earthquake blocked the line near Bologna, finally only the 20.10 train leaved Milano Centrale on time.

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Reggio Emilia HS Station is not connected to the rest of the rail network.
It is a "gare des bettraves" (a beetroot station), a station in the middle of nowhere
No, it will/should be above a perpendicular regional railway.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 12:28 PM   #227
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why Eurostar as the the trains which reach London? the Italian TAV cannot put another name on it? can somebody explain me plz?
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Old December 24th, 2008, 12:35 PM   #228
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The name Eurostar, if I'm not wrong, is used for ETR 500 before Channel tunnel construction was finished
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Old December 24th, 2008, 12:39 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
The name Eurostar, if I'm not wrong, is used for ETR 500 before Channel tunnel construction was finished
You mean the name "Eurostar" was first given to Italian HSTs than Channel Tunnel trains?
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Old December 24th, 2008, 12:46 PM   #230
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I'm not sure... anyway it is used since many years in Italy
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Old December 24th, 2008, 08:43 PM   #231
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It would be cool to make a train Line from Milano, accross the Swiss alps, Zürich-Basel, then France, Strasbourg-Paris, and then to London without changing the train. A sort of High Speed Train through 4 countries.

What do you think about this idea?
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Old December 24th, 2008, 10:44 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cristof View Post
why Eurostar as the the trains which reach London? the Italian TAV cannot put another name on it? can somebody explain me plz?
Actually the "Eurostar" name was branded by Fiat Ferroviaria. The the name was leased as a branded name to the anglofrench TGV Transmanche, which is a quadri-voltage extremely long and narrower version of a TGV.

So the anglo-french Eurostar has nothing to do with the Eurostar name and the train used in Italy.
Later on, after the name "Eurostar" was leased to the anglo-british consortium, the Italians adopted the branded name "Eurostar Italia".

Although the anglo-fench Eurostar (TGV transmanche) is a TGV derivative is less poweful than a conventional TGV.
However, it is far more perfomant thant the ETR500 Eurostar Italia now "ETR500 Frecciarossa AV fast".
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Old December 24th, 2008, 10:54 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
You're makin' misinformation now, as the Bridge is scheduled to be built
The bridge is in the final planning stage . The initial works should begin in 2010 and the bridge should be opened in 2016.

This assuming that the government first approve the plan and then foot the bill.

Also, given the "biblical times" (this is a common Italian expression) to carry out public work, I have serious doubt that the Bridge will be either built and then operational within the (very theorethical) time-scale quoted by the financial daily "Il Sole 24 ore" .

Last edited by joseph1951; December 24th, 2008 at 10:56 PM. Reason: typos
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Old December 24th, 2008, 10:59 PM   #234
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eurostar is more performant in terms of acceleration (little more), but not in maximum speed reached during testing (355 vs 334).

eurostar is more powerful in terms of pure power than a standard TGV (12,2 MW vs 8,8 MW) but since it has 18 carriages vs 8 carriages the power/weight ratio is more favourable for standard TGV (16KW/ton vs 23 kW/ton)
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Last edited by dreaad; December 25th, 2008 at 11:55 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 11:38 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
eurostar is more performant in terms of acceleration (little more), but not in maximum speed reached during testing (355 vs 334).

eurostar is more powerful in terms of pure power than a standard TGV (12,2 MW vs 8,8 MW) but since it's have 18 carriages vs 8 carriages the power/weight ratio is more favourable for standard TGV (16KW/ton vs 23 kW/ton)
Which eurostar are we talking here? Look on wikipedia in English, French, Italian etc.
The TGV TMST "Eurostar three capitals" has 12,200 kw output and weigh about 790 tons. (2 locos + 18 carriages)
The regional Eurostar TGV TMST weigh about 590 tons and has 12,200 Kw output (2 locos + 14 carriages)

The TGVs of second, third, fourth generations have an output of 8,800 kw and weight about 430-477 ton (depending on the type of TGV).
This includes the TGV Duplex.
The TGV Pos is slighly more powerful than the other TGVs.
The Korean TGV is the least poweful of the TGV family . It carries about 1,350 passenger. It accelerates from 0 to 300 km/h in 6 minutes. Which for the French TGV is a slow accleration.
Susbesenquty the Korean have developed heir own train capable of 350 km/h,which is clearly a derivative of the Fench TGV they bought.
The 350 km/h korean TGV derivative has been sold to Turkey. The ETR500 has been sold only to Italy.
Why don't you ask yourself why the ETR500 has been sold only to the Italian railways?

The Italian Eurostar reached the 355 km/h passing from 199km/h to 355 km/h in 10 minutes and 44 second.
On the TGV run Calais -Marseille (1067 kms in 3 hours 29 mins, 29 seconds) speeds of -360-366 Km/h were reached . Speeds above 320 and 360 were maintained for long time.

The Italian ETR500 has an output of 8,800 kw and weight 660 tons. With 2 loco + 12 carriage formation it can only exceeds 300-305 km/h on flat land and for very short periods.

On 3000 volt DC and above 200 km/h, with only one loco active, it develops only 4,400 kw.

The video on the record speed obtained with one of the two testing ETR500 , namely the ETR500Y, which is a train composed of eight carriages and 2 locos, has ben posted in this section of skyscraper railways.
You ought o look at it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV

Last edited by joseph1951; August 31st, 2011 at 02:56 AM.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 11:59 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
eurostar is more performant in terms of acceleration (little more), but not in maximum speed reached during testing (355 vs 334).

eurostar is more powerful in terms of pure power than a standard TGV (12,2 MW vs 8,8 MW) but since it's have 18 carriages vs 8 carriages the power/weight ratio is more favourable for standard TGV (16KW/ton vs 23 kW/ton)
Who cares about the story of Turin and that the world "comes to Turin"?
The videdo you posted is also dubbed in American.. What next? Are we gong to see videos of the Roman Empire at its Height to justify the present mediocre trains?...

This is the ETR500 acceleration diagram which I posted on page 4 of this topic...

=========================================================
Here is the link containing the acceleration diagram of the reduced formation for the ETR500 (2 locos + 8 carriages) used on the Turin-Milan High Speed line.


http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5...ovarasvtv1.png



On The Milan-Bologna Line the 355 Km/h were achieved with the ETR500Y, which is capable of running under 3kv d.c. / 25Kv a.c., but it is a test train of a reduced formation of 2 locos + 3 carriages. This is the standard formation of the ETR500Y test train.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by joseph1951; August 31st, 2011 at 02:57 AM. Reason: typos
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Old December 25th, 2008, 12:04 AM   #237
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[QUOTE=joseph1951;29843572]

this link should work . It is the speed diagram of the ETR500 on reduced formation with 8 carraiges from Turin AV, towards (Novara) Milan.

It is clear that the 300km/h mark is barely touched, after 50 km of slow acceleration on the HSL. Now the Tuirn Novara HSL is on the flat land of the Po valley. The same is true of the Milan-Bologna HSL line

On the Milan- Bologna line the Etr500 use to have 12 carriages , so it is feasible to assume that these heavier trains will have even a slower acceleration, on the very flat Milan- Bologna HSL .

But probably somebody will tell me that this is because of the type of sandy soil on the Milan HSL section is different to that of Turin HSL section.....

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5...ovarasvtv1.png


Bologna junction - Underground station
before joining the HSL, the non stopping train will slow down in tunnel at 160km/ then it will transit at a furher reduced speed on the undeground platform 2 or 3, then it will negotiate a tight curve with a radius of 475m, then it will climb up with an incline of 1.8 %, then it will resurface, then it will be connceted to the HSL to Florence by a crossover negotiable at a speed of 100 km.

Well ,... on the surface track 1 and 3 the transit is possible at 60-80 km/h and, immediately outside the railways station, towards Florence, the old line allows a top speed of 125 -km/145 km/h

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20Junction.pdf


Florence Belfiore Station - undergound crossing

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20junction.pdf

after slowing down to 80km/h at Belfiore Station , where there are two curves, one of which is
305m radius, the train will continue to Campo di Marte at 110/km , then it will cross Campo di Marte Station, and continue at low speed for another 4 km to Rovezzano, where the historic DD begins.

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20junction.pdf

Last edited by joseph1951; August 31st, 2011 at 03:07 AM.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 12:36 AM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Who cares about the story of Turin and that the world "comes to Turin"?
The videdo you posted is also dubbed in American.. What next? Are we gong to see videos of the Roman Empire at its Height to justify the present mediocre trains?...

This is the ETR500 acceleration diagram which I posted on page 4 of this topic...

=========================================================
Here is the link containing the acceleration diagram of the reduced formation for the ETR500 (2 locos + 8 carriages) used on the Turin-Milan High Speed line.


http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5...ovarasvtv1.png



On The Milan-Bologna Line the 355 Km/h were achieved with the ETR500Y, which is capable of running under 3kv d.c. / 25Kv a.c., but it is a test train of a reduced formation of 2 locos + 3 carriages. This is the standard formation of the ETR500Y test train.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOOOOO!!!
ETR500 Y1 which did the record @ 355 km/h has 8 carriages!!!
http://www.railwaygazette.com/ur_sin...e_quicker.html

http://www.trenomania.org/fotogaller....php?album=976



only the Y2 test train has 3 carriages.
you mix it up with the special composition (3 carriages) of the TGV used for record of april 2007 (574.8 km/h).

there are other 3 ETR500 which have 8 carriages and are used on the turin-milan HSL. all the others 57 have 12 carriages.

you don't know how things are exactly.


p.s.: who cares about turin?!?!? who cares about your ignorance and stupidity??
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Old December 25th, 2008, 12:49 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Which eurostar are we talking here? Look on wikipedia in English, French, Italian etc.
The TGV TMST "Eurostar three capitals" has 12,200 kw output and weigh about 790 tons. (2 locos + 18 carriages)
The regional Eurostar TGV TMST weigh about 590 tons and has 12,200 Kw output (2 locos + 14 carriages)

The TGV of second, third, fourth generations have an output of 8,800 kw and weight about 430-477 ton (depending on th type of TGV).
This includes the TGV Duplex.
The TGV Pos is slighly more powerful than the other TGV.
The Korean TGV is the less poweful of the TGV family . It carries about 1,350 passenger. It accelerates from 0 to 300 km/h in 6 minutes. Which for the French TGV is almost unheard of.
Susbesenquely the Korean have develope their own train capable of 350 km/h which is clearly a derivative of the Fenche TGV they bought.
The 350 km/h Korena TGV derivative has been sold to Turkey. The ETR500 has been sold only to Italy.
Why don't you aske yourself why the ETR500 is sold only to the Italian railways?

The Italian Eurostar Reached the 355 km passing from 199km/h to 355 in 10 minutes and 44 second.
The TGV run Calais -Marselle (1067) kms in 3 hours 29 min 29 seconds Speed of 366 Km were reached . Speed above 320 and 360 were maintained for long time.

The Italian ETR500 has an output of 8,800 kw and weight 660 tons. On 2 loco + 12 carriages can only touch 300-303 km on flat land and for very short periods.

On 3000 volt Dc with only one loco activer can develop only 4,400 kw.

The video on the record sped obtained with one of the two testing ETR500 , coposed of three carriages and 2 locos is on this section of skyscraper railways.
You ought o look at it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV

I referred to the eurostar used for international service. I know all the the technical data about TGVs and ETR500.
however the weight of an ETR500 with 12 carriages is 616 tons (68 tons for each loco plus 40 tons for each carriage).
that is to be precise.

I said before that ETR500 is slower than other trains, but with better comfort by comparison with ICE3 and newer TGV (duplex, reseau etc...). and not only italian people say that.

if you are convinced that italian HSLs are very bad... you don't understand anything.


in my behalf, this conversation with a so arrogant person ends now.
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Last edited by dreaad; December 25th, 2008 at 04:25 AM.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 12:53 AM   #240
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[QUOTE=joseph1951;29843698][QUOTE=joseph1951;29843572]

this link is for th eofficial web site of Trenitalia AV

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/cms...a_Velocita.pdf

According to the above document in pdf the new 55 Trenitalia trainsets homologated for 350km/h will be bought by 2011.

Perhaps is worth remembering that, according to the UIC rules, to homologate a given train speed it is necessary to exceed the homologation speed by a minimum of 10%.
Therefore, a train which has an homologated speed of 350 km/h must reach at the very least, and repeatedly, 385 km/h.

That's why the Spanish Velaro has an homologatd speed (i.e.: maximum speed) of 350km/h and, prior the homologation of that speed has reached 403 km/h).

The old French TGV Sud Est , which originally had a top speed of 270 km/h reached 380km/h.

The 355 km/h reached by the Italian ETR500 on the newly opened HLS Milan Bologna (after 10 min and 44 seconds to accelerate from 199km/h to 355 km/h could hardly qualify the ETR500 for a top commercial speed of 320 km/h.

Also
1- the top speed must be reached in shortish time. The Velaro accelerates from 0 km/h to 350 km/h in 380 seconds, or 6 minutes and 20 seconds.
The top speed must be sustained.

The documents from Trenitalia AV gives also th HSL timetable for 2009.
It would appear that timetable contains contradictions.
Namely,
Milan_Rome non-stop (from Milano -Centrale to Roma Termini) = 3hrs for about 570-579 km =
From Milan -Rogoredo to Rome Tiburtina: 2h 45 minutes
From Milan - Naples 5hrs 35 minutes and limited to a few HSL ETR 500
Rome Naples HSL in 1 hour 10 minutes and also 1 hour and 21 minutes= averaging about 180/km/h or 151km/h...
Frecciaorossa AV
From Milan to Florence 1 hr 45 minutes

Plase note that on the historical lines
a) Milan -Bologna = 219 km
b) Bologna - Florence 97 km
Total distance Milan -Florence on the historical lines 316 km
316 km : 105 minutes = Avergae speed of 180.57 km/hour

The new Bologna Florece HSL should be shorter that the historical line.

http://www.ferroviedellostato.it/cms...a_Velocita.pdf

Last edited by joseph1951; December 25th, 2008 at 01:04 AM. Reason: additions
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