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Old December 25th, 2008, 02:45 AM   #241
joseph1951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
NOOOOO!!!
ETR500 Y1 which did the record @ 355 km/h has 8 carriages!!!
http://www.railwaygazette.com/ur_sin...e_quicker.html

http://www.trenomania.org/fotogaller....php?album=976



only the Y2 test train has 3 carriages.
you mix it up with the special composition (3 carriages) of the TGV used for record of april 2007 (574.8 km/h).

there are other 3 ETR500 which have 8 carriages and are used on the turin-milan HSL. all the others 57 have 12 carriages.

you don't know how things are exactly.


p.s.: who cares about turin?!?!? who cares about your ignorance and stupidity??
The video talks about the history of Italy in a pompous manner an it is dubbed in American.

It is propaganda at its worst, and I find it offensive to all intelligent italians and foreigners. The Americans know about the Italian Renaissance.

Some American are extemely well educated (this also applies to many, many other foreigners).


In this forum we talk about trains not Renaissance, with particuarly emphasis on Turin as "caput mundi" , on everything.

Not even Mussolini has such bad a taste.

With regards to my ignorance , my late wife was American and she taught English and American Literature and Cambridge (UK, not Mass, USA) .
When I was young I got a Master at Yale...but I am Italian, from Ferrara.
And now I am extremely ill and crippled..(and I should be in bed...)

That's why, perhaps, I bother passing the time with people like yourself.
There was a time when Italy was creative. But, in my opinion, Italy, in the last 40 years. has increasingly become a second rate czarist-borbonic-retrograde nation.

Static and rigid.

Expanded egos is all its left......


No, I do not mix up the ETR series Y, which are used for testing lines, with the TGV which holds the world speed record of about 574,8 km/h, and which was an experiment made not only to test the new AGV motors, but also to test the techincal limits of the conventional rail lines, (and also to sell trains).

Up to 30 years ago the rail engineers did not even know what was he limit of contact between rail and wheel..

(Please refer to the late professor Giovanni Klaus Koenig's: Oltre il Pendolino, Valerio Levi Editore, Roma 1986)


The TGV holder of the world speed record was an experimental train to push to the limits the technical envelope rail + train.

I was told, and I also read that the ETR500 series Y had 3 carriages . Even if the ETR500 Y had 8 carriages it is clear that it accelerates very slowly.

At Melegnano (20km south of Milan Grand Central Station) it travels at 199km/h.
From 199km/h to 330 km/h it takes about 5 minutes and 45 seconds.
This hardly qualifies it for a 300km/h continuous commercial speed. (max commercial sustained speed +10%).

Italy has many medium size towns every 50-80 kms. Therefore acceleration is an important factor.

The ETR500 was originally planned for a max commercial speed of 250-275km/h.

It is a traditional heavy train (like the ICE1). Given the original plan they fixed it quite well. But, from the perfomance point of view, it cannot compete for accelaration and top speed with other HS trains of diferent concept.

Also, it is more than rumored that, during the record of the fampus 355km/h there were problems with the catenary and the pantograph.

To be fair, the experimental TGV holder of the world record of 574,8 km has caused some damages to the rails. But it was travelling at a speed of over 224 km/h higher that the ETR500 Y2..
Severe damages to the tracks and and catenary occurred even when, in the mid 1950, the French pushed a train at sped of over 330 km/h.. That experiment was also carried out to test the limits of the techonology available at the time......


The experimental TGV holder of the world speed record has demonstrated that:

a) The new highly efficient motors (planned for the AGV) were working, and also that:

b) with improvement in planning, design, construction and twiking it is possible to build trains which can run in excess of 360km/h consuming 15-20% less than a conventional TGV running at 300km/h.

The new Talgo AVRIL will have a commecial speed of 380km/h and will weigh less than 300 tons.

Perhaps if to the ETR500 Y2 + 8 carriages they had put skirts to cover the frontal bogies of the two locos, they would have reduced the air drag by 10%, or - if you prefer - the train would have had at its disposal 10% more energy at a very high speed.

It is well known that, with a train like the TGV to pass from 300km/h to 360 it requires a doubling of the amount of energy fro an increase of 20% in speed.

Thus the need of pushing the technology to find acceptable solutions.


To cover the frontal bogies of the two locos of the ETR500 requires 4 pieces of metal. At Trenitalia this is known. Since they have carried such type of experiment.

Nevertheless, they should have asked Ferrari..

It is well known that at speed above 300Km/h the air drag becomes the main problem.

Given 300-500km free line, the ETR500 Y2 wold have even exceeded the 355km record.

The 355 km/hour were reached at about 100-106 km from Milan Central station. Then, it was time to apply the breaks.....


Somebody , on this forum, has mentioned FOL, a good Italian railways forum. On FOL (hte old and the new Fol forums) there is all the story of the 355km/h record.

Furthermore, it seems that the ETR500 Frecciarossa AV train fleet will have its bogies replaced by the TGV bogies produced by Alstom..

It is reported in FOL as well.

The Spanish have TGC, Simens Velaros. Talgo, Italian tilting and non tilting trains. The Talgos. They have HST capable of 350 km/h andl also regional feeder HST capable of 330 km/h (Talgo 350) and of 250km/h.

Quitetly quitely they have built almost 2000 km of HSL and in a few years they plan to have 7000 km of HSL of standard gauge. And Spain is very mountainous. The averga heigh is 700 metres above sea level..

The Chinese have bought all the western and japanese technology (including the maglevs) . They even maneged to build night trains capable of 250km/h..

The Koreans bought the TGV and then built their own super TGV capable of 350 km/h and they exported it (even to Turkey)

Nototmention the Japanese. Teh Htachi trains are even sold to UK.. And they will build a maglev line of a 580 km/h top speed.
Learning means aso to compare ones project with the projects of other nations.
What is the point of endlessy eluogize ones miracle train named ETR500 Freciarossa AV, and desecrate what other nations and engineers have achieved. It is only with an honest compararison of alocal product (the ETr500) with what other technicians and nations have come up with that progress can be achieved. The obstinate refusal to honestly analyse and, when appropriate recognised that others have come up with better solutions is detrimental and counterproductive.

You have mentioned the http://www.railwaygazette.com, but have you had a look in the said website at the world record commercial speeds?

Merry Christmas

Last edited by joseph1951; December 25th, 2008 at 03:16 AM. Reason: Editing
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Old December 25th, 2008, 03:38 AM   #242
joseph1951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
NOOOOO!!!
ETR500 Y1 which did the record @ 355 km/h has 8 carriages!!!
http://www.railwaygazette.com/ur_sin...e_quicker.html

http://www.trenomania.org/fotogaller....php?album=976



only the Y2 test train has 3 carriages.
you mix it up with the special composition (3 carriages) of the TGV used for record of april 2007 (574.8 km/h).

there are other 3 ETR500 which have 8 carriages and are used on the turin-milan HSL. all the others 57 have 12 carriages.

you don't know how things are exactly.


p.s.: who cares about turin?!?!? who cares about your ignorance and stupidity??
Talking of www.railwaygazzette.com have you seen this:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_v...rformance.html

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2007/09/7742/new_lines_boost_rails_high_speed_performance.html
Rail World speed survey-
for instance

World Speed Survey: New lines boost rail's high speed performance

04 Sep 2007 | Dr Colin Taylor

……………

France's Ligne à Grande Vitesse Est Européenne between Paris and Strasbourg is the first railway in the world where trains can run at a maximum speed of 320 km/h (199 mile/h). This has helped to lift the record for the fastest scheduled rail journey to 279.4 km/h, compared with a best of 263.3 km/h two years ago. Making full use of the higher speeds, a French TGV trainset covers the 167.6 km between the new stations at Lorraine TGV and Champagne-Ardennes TGV in just 36 min.
The fastest trains in each country - from Railway Gazette's World Speed Survey 2007
Full survey (PDF)
Country From To Distance,
km Time,
min Speed
km/h
1 France Lorraine TGV Champagne TGV 167.6 36 279.3
2 Japan Okayama Hiroshima 144.9 34 255.7
3 Taiwan Taichung Zuoying 179.5 44 244.7
4 International Brussels Midi Valence TGV 831.7 204 244.6
5 Germany Frankfurt Airport Siegburg/Bonn 144 37 233.5
6 Spain Madrid Atocha Zaragoza Delicias 307.2 81 227.6
7 China Shenyang Bei Qinhuangdao 404 123 197.1
8 S Korea Seoul Yongsan Seodaejeon 161 50 193.2
9 UK London King's Cross York 303.2 105 173.3
10 Sweden Alvesta Hässleholm 98 34 172.9
11 Italy Rome Termini Florence SMN 261 92 170.3
12 USA Baltimore Wilmington 110.1 41 161.1
13 Finland Tikkurila Tampere 177 67 158.5
14 Austria St Pölten Linz Hbf 122.7 48 153.4
15 Norway Lillestrøm Gardermoen 30.2 12 151.2
Related News:
US seeks high speed PPP proposals - 19-12-08 10:59
Shinkansen prototype launched - 20-11-08 11:36
'Peregrine falcon' to be fastest trains in Russia - 23-09-08 12:31
Kawasaki unveils 350 km/h Environmentally Friendly Super Exp... - 18-09-08 11:15
NTV targets 20% market share by 2015 - 01-09-08 09:09
Polish high speed plan - 27-08-08 09:00
Beijing - Tianjin high speed line opens for business - 31-07-08 14:57
Velaro sets Chinese speed record - 27-06-08 17:12
UK high speed rail development fund announced - 1
3-06-08 08:00
World Speed Survey 2007 update - 02-11-07 07:38
Files:
RailwayGazetteWorldSpeedSurvey2007_01.pdf
<- Back to: News


Referring to me you said: "Who cares about your ignorance and stupidity"

Are you sure I am the ignorant and supid one?

With regards to: www.trenomania.org/fotogallery/thumbnails.php?album=976[/url]

This is a web-site for (bitchy) children....
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Old December 25th, 2008, 03:50 AM   #243
dreaad
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but do you have some difficulties understanding what I've written??
maybe you are not so intelligent as you say (if you have really got a master at yale, it's even worse).

I said perhaps that ETR500 is the best train all over the world??
NO!
you're annoying me with your monotone posts talking about how fast are TGVs.
I already know it and I already admit their superiority concerning perfomance in comparison to high speed italian trains.


you mentioned that TGV concept is used in many countries.
but do you know that the tilting train concept (a purely italian invention) is used in much more countries?
so italian railway engineering is not so bad.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 03:56 AM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
eurostar is more performant in terms of acceleration (little more), but not in maximum speed reached during testing (355 vs 334).

eurostar is more powerful in terms of pure power than a standard TGV (12,2 MW vs 8,8 MW) but since it's have 18 carriages vs 8 carriages the power/weight ratio is more favourable for standard TGV (16KW/ton vs 23 kW/ton)
In fact you are right. The TGV Eurostar TMST with a power ratio of about 16kW/ton cannot compete with the TGV Atlantique, Reseau or Duplex which have about 22-23 kW/ton.
This is especially true in the very crowded Ligne Paris-Lyon which, at time have one train every 4-5 minutes in each direction.
Given the fact that the LGV Paris-Lyon has a section with an incline of 3.1% (or 31 per thousands (as it is calculated in Italy) in case of slightly late running of TGV Eurostar Three Capitals, the train cannot make up time.

However, the TGV Three capitals manages to cover the 112 km from London St Pancras to the Portalof the Channel tunnel in about 30-35 minutes, in spite of the fact that this line has three constraints:

1- Exit in tunnel for St Pancras. In the tunnel the top speed is 230 km/h
2- Slow down at Ashford (flyover) at 240 km/h and
3- slow down to 160 km/h before entering in the Channel tunnel.


For the same reason the ETR500 cannot go to Paris. The Macon-Dijon part of the line (about 1/3 of the Paris Lyon) is too hilly. The ETR500 won't keep up with the TGVs.


The same is also true for the German new line, which has an incline of 4% (40 per thousand) and, among the ICE fleet, this line is only used by the ICE3 when it does not break down.

Last edited by joseph1951; December 25th, 2008 at 03:59 AM. Reason: Editing
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Old December 25th, 2008, 04:19 AM   #245
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last clarifications

Quote:
The old French TGV Sud Est , which originally had a top speed of 270 km/h reached 380km/h.
that TGV was NOT standard: it had bigger wheels and tension was increased to 29kV.
ALL ITALIAN RECORDS WITH ETR500 ARE DONE IN STANDARD CONDITIONS (both for the trainset and the tension)

the only TGV record in which the trainset was standard was the long test run between calais and marseille in june 2001.


Quote:
The Italian ETR500 has an output of 8,800 kw and weight 660 tons. On 2 loco + 12 carriages can only touch 300-303 km on flat land and for very short periods.
yes, but on flat land a 12 carriages-ETR500 can run @ 300km/h for long periods, not short.

the same with older TGVs on the HSL paris-lyon over the hills, where they can run no more than 270 km/h.
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Last edited by dreaad; December 25th, 2008 at 04:35 AM.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 05:21 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
but do you have some difficulties understanding what I've written??
maybe you are not so intelligent as you say (if you have really got a master at yale, it's even worse).

I said perhaps that ETR500 is the best train all over the world??
NO!
you're annoying me with your monotone posts talking about how fast are TGVs.
I already know it and I already admit their superiority concerning perfomance in comparison to high speed italian trains.


you mentioned that TGV concept is used in many countries.
but do you know that the tilting train concept (a purely italian invention) is used in much more countries?
so italian railway engineering is not so bad.

The tilting train (ETR401) was one of the best train built n Italy in the last 40 years.
First around the early '70, they bui ltonly one prototype, and this prototype was in service three times a week on Ancona-Roma.

The politicians snobbed it . Fs did the same.
Then in 1985 - circa - with the DD half built, they discovered that they had no train capable of 250km/h running.

Therefore, they ordered Fiat ferroviaria to built a longer version of the ETR401.
15 or so years had elapsed after the original ERT401 had been built, and Fiat Ferroviaria was given very little time to build the ETR450.

So it was not posibile to upgrade the new tilting train (the pendolone ETR450) with new engines and electrical equipment, choopers , etc (elettronica di potenza).
Nevertheless, the ETR450 was a superb train.

In Italy it was never used at its full capacity . For the italian orography and its rail network it was a far better choice than the ETR500.

Once the DD was completed, in case of late running, several ETR450 managed to do Rome-Florence at a steady 260km/h with a journey time Rome-Florence from point to point of 1h 10 minutes, 1h 15 min

Milan-Bologna 1h 23 - 1h 26 min minutes . The ETR500 on the same line: 1h 43 minutes..

The Etr 460 had teething problems. Also the pleasant, but square Giugiaro nose caused too much air drag....which prevented it to reach 275 km/h as emergency max speed.

The Fiat tiltings were sold to half of world: from Finland to China.

Since Fiat had no support neither from the Italian governement nor from FS it had no chice but to sell the tilting to Alstom.

Once you sell a patent, the patent is not yours anymore. Once sold the Pendolino became French: an Alstom train. End of story.
Now they've got the full range. Italy has nothing.


Alstom was not doing well before the construction of the first French High Speed Line, but it had the support both of the French government and of the SNCF.

Since when SNCF has bought foreign trains?

Now Alstom is a world player, and the Italian Railways industry is almost inexistent.
Political myopia and sutpidity....... Please don't blame me for this.

For the record, Fiat had also planned a new and faster version of the Tilting. It was very light. Also it had had emergency air-brakes, lke the new Japanese Shinkansen 360, and the top commercial speed was to be of 320 km/h.

The Pedolino Avril (nothing to do with the future 380km/h Talgo Avril) remained just an idea


Initially, the distance of the non-stop Bologna-Padua (123 km) was covered in 1h 3 minutes. Now with the ETR 500 (lately EScity) it takes 1h 15 minutes.
At least this was true during last Summer.

================================

You might enjoy two Italian railways books , if you can still find them.
They might be out of print.

1- The already mentioned Giovanni Klaus Koenig : Oltre il Pendolino. Valerio Levi Editore , Roma, 1986

2- Werner Hardmeier - Ascanio Schneider: Direttissima Bolgna-Firenze-Roma, Edizioni Locodivision, pubblicato da Orell Fuessli Verlag Zuerich und Wiesbaden ,1989
and for the Italian Edition , Edizioni Locodivision , Via Cassino 41, Torino, 1990
==========================================================
Koening does not only talk about the Pendolino but his book is a real Italian Railway Encyclopaedia.
They are both superb books.

==========================================================
I am not against the ETR500. It is a 250km conventional heavy train which has been greatly improved with the second series. But it has its conceptual limitations.
In y oinion there is a need of long distance light trains with extremely fast accelerations ad top speeds of 320km/h or more. There is also a need of tilting and not tilting HSL trains (Regional trains of 5-6 carriages) to feed the long diostances HST . For instance 3- to 6 cariages HSL regional feeding trains with a power under 3000 volt of 1500kW
With permanent magnetic induction motors , such as those of the AGV. This should not be a great problem. A six carriages regional train weighing 240 tons and capable of developing 6000kW on the Venice-Mestre, which is electrified as the DD on 3000 volt dc, Or a similar train on the DD..or between Milan and Venice , and capble of developing more power on the 25kW ac..

There is also the need of dual voltage locomotives capable of developing 6000 kW on 3000 volt dc and more under 25kW ac. There is also urgent need for regional double decker trains, capable of 200km/h FOR COMMUTERS AND ALSO for day and Night Intercities. 200km/h commuters trains, and 200-230km/h day IC and 200-230 Night IC trains are quite common in many European Countries, from France, to Germany, Austria, Switzerland, etc.

Why spending pharaonic sums of money for building an hypothetical Bridge on the Straight of Messina, while you don't even have the rolling stock to use on the new and old lines?

You are still using the E444 which were build almost 40years ago.
Never heard of Taurus Locos, Eurosprints, etc.?

Never mind the High density double decker trains (TAF) with a top speed of 140 km/h........

Last but not least: the adriatica line is almost entirely doubled . It could be capable of 200km/h running but, in the doubled or reconstructed sections, the top speed is limited to 150 km/h because the Bacc signalling system has not been installed.......... And yet Bologna-Bari is 650 km long ,and Bologna-Foggia 799 km long (if I remember correctly..) an over +30% increase in speed could make a big difference..

Last edited by joseph1951; December 25th, 2008 at 05:42 AM. Reason: addiions
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Old December 25th, 2008, 12:06 PM   #247
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but in your opinion don't I know all the things that you've mentioned??

I know ALL about it. I know the current limits of italian railway. I know that it needs much improvements in management and new trainsets. I know well that italian railway industry is small now.

what is your contribution in this topic?? saying only that italian railway is very bad and we're retrogade. ok, this is true in part, but it's not very useful.
why don't you mention for example that italian engineers of Ansaldo Breda were the first to put in operation the ERTMS level 2 (European Rail Traffic Management System) and all oher engineers from france, germany and so on came here to learn how to succeed?
in spain, engineers tried to use it on the HSL madrid-lleida, but since they didn't succeed they used the old ASFA system with limited speed of 200 km/h.
and now they have upgraded to ETRMS level 1 on the HSL madrid-barcelona and speed is limited to 300 km/h (level 2 is scheduled in short terms however), instead of 350 km/h as previously forecast, and it will remain so as stated the minister of public works, Magdalena Álvarez.


Concerning HSL, the long run service has just started and next year it will be almost completed (except urban nodes), even if with several years of delay.
but it's important that finally the service has started and in these first days things are going well (concerning delays).

concerning the adriatica, when the delivery of the 12 tilting ETR600 to trenitalia (during 2009) will be completed, there will be a fast service between turin/milan and apulia, using the HSL until bologna. and more fast links ,using both historical and high speed lines, can be put in service.
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Last edited by dreaad; December 25th, 2008 at 12:27 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 07:05 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
last clarifications



that TGV was NOT standard: it had bigger wheels and tension was increased to 29kV.
ALL ITALIAN RECORDS WITH ETR500 ARE DONE IN STANDARD CONDITIONS (both for the trainset and the tension)

the only TGV record in which the trainset was standard was the long test run between calais and marseille in june 2001.




yes, but on flat land a 12 carriages-ETR500 can run @ 300km/h for long periods, not short.

the same with older TGVs on the HSL paris-lyon over the hills, where they can run no more than 270 km/h.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1- The first TGV trainset which set the world train speed on the Paris-Lyon was not the one which set the world rail speed of 574,8 km/h .

The latter was of reduced formation (2 locos + 3 carriages) overpowered and, on the carriages, they had mounted the new motors to be used on the AGV.
The tension of the catenary had to be incresed by 50%. The electrical supply was raised to 31 kW ac (according to the French), from the standard 25kW ac.
The pantograph on the loco at the back was modified to take into account the more rigid catenary. The patograph at the front of the train was removed. The rail section in which the speed 150V was to be reached, or exceeded was also modified.

They had to test both the effectiveness of the concept of the train at its maximum technical envelope.
The aerodynamic of the set was also modified.

After the run at 574,8 damages to the track were detected.

The protype TGV which hold the world record speed on rail of 574,8 was a mere prototype.

It cannot be compared with a standard TGV. Incidentally the TGV POS Duplex run daily at 320 km/h and runs at 360km/h occurs freqently on the TGV Est with the TGV Duplex.

When running late the TGV runs also at 330 km/h between Lyon and Marseille, on daily basis.
Many runs to 500 km/h carried out on the last two years have shown that at those speeds the TGV is safe.

2- For the Calais-Marseille non stop run the conventional TGV used had its electronic configuration modified to allow to draw 8,800 kw X 2 = 17,600 kw for about 50 minutes. This gives it a faster acceleration and it can reach and sustain 360km/h for long period of time.

To tweak trains, catenary, engines , rails for experimental purposes is nothing new.

It was also done in 1939 in Italy with the ETR200 on the record run Florence -Milan .
On the ETR200 the nominal electric power of the catenary was raised from 3,000 volts to 4,000 volts. The copper of the catenary was replaced with a better quality copper.

Several tracks on curves were welded (famous is the welding of the curve of Modena).

An experimental run made with an experimental train is just an experiment ,and at best, it serves to test the conceptual limits.

Suffce to say that the French reached about 331km/h with a test train in the mid '40 but they then run trains at max speed of 160.

They have reached an official world record of 574,8 km/h but they run trains of maximum commercial speed of 320km/h . SNCF never wanted the AGV (formerly called TGV NG) which is capable of sustained speed of 360km/h.

The AGV has been imposed to SNCF by political and industrial forces. The SNCF policy focus of mass tranportation of passengers at 300-320 km/h.

That is why SNCF likes the TGV Duplex which often runs in double formation.

When you can run tweaked experimental tains at 574,8 km/h.........

When you can run over 176 km of track, in about 36 minutes at an average speed in excess of 271 km/h......... (consider tha the new HSL Milan- Bologna has 182 of HS tracks)..................

When you can run 1067 kms on 3 hours 29 minutes and 29 seconds,........

When you can run 12 -15 trains per hour per track, like in the Paris-Lyon, then you will start to be almost at par with Franace...........

On the Raways gazzete I posted the lines of the fastes railways scheduled runs in the world.

Italy manages a mere 170 km/h with the fastes train on the DD.
France over 271/km/h.

Why don't you look at the link posted? .Since you know everything...

Last edited by joseph1951; January 26th, 2009 at 10:14 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 10:16 PM   #249
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Quote:
The electrical supply was raised to 29,5 kW ac, from the standard 25kW ac.
kV, not kW
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Old December 25th, 2008, 10:21 PM   #250
joseph1951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
kV, not kW

Thank you cocodrillo for spotting my typo. It would have been understood anyway
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Old December 26th, 2008, 12:11 AM   #251
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Quote:
[...] Italy manages a mere 170 km/h with the fastes train on the DD.
France over 271/km/h.

Why don't you look at the link posted? .Since you know everything...
it's useless... you always pretend to not understand me.


OK...guys: ITALIAN HIGH SPEED RAILWAY IS RIDICOLOUS AND PATHETIC

and now you should be happy
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Old December 26th, 2008, 02:28 AM   #252
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This would be the best train for the italian geography! and the short distance between cities!!

image hosted on flickr



Light weight and with a nice acceleration and suficient top speed (330kmh)
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Old December 26th, 2008, 04:17 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
it's useless... you always pretend to not understand me.


OK...guys: ITALIAN HIGH SPEED RAILWAY IS RIDICOLOUS AND PATHETIC

and now you should be happy
I am neither happy non unhappy. The world commercial record speeds are on the railway gazette. I posted the link.


At a certain age one ought to learn to distinghuish facts from fiction or from
wishful thinking.

Your "sour grape attitude" will certainly not improve neither Trentalia nor the tone of this debate
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Old December 26th, 2008, 04:22 PM   #254
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[QUOTE=sdf11;29871442]This would be the best train for the italian geography! and the short distance between cities!!

image hosted on flickr



ETR500 Y1 and ETR500 Y2

The Y1 is composed of 2 locos (67 tons each) and 3 carriages of 40 tons each = total weight 254 tons. Power output 8,800 Kw = 34,64 kw/ton.

Compared to reduced composition of "tweaked TGVs" ,as my felows Italians call them it perfomarce is sluggish.

On the Milan-Bologna HSL, from 0 km/h the Y1 it has reached a speed of 300km/h after 5min and 42 seconds of constant acceleration, and a top speed of 334 km/h after over ten minutes from the departure.

Perhapsit is worth noting that with this massive power/ton ratio the acceleration is still sluggish when compared to other types of HST.

The Y2 is composed of 2 loco and 8 carriages = 454 tons and under 25kV a.c. it develops a maximum power (but for how long?) of 8,800 kw.
It is not clear which of the two (Y1 or the Y2) is the holder of the record speed of 355km/h.

The ETR500 Y1 and Y2 have the same nominal power of the ETR500 used to carry passenger. The Y1 and Y2 are merely train used to test the lines.

Perhaps it should be noted that, in China, 350km/h are reached daily on commercial speed with a wider version of the German Velaro.

Also the TGV Sud Est which is commercially scheduled for 320km/h running, often exceeds this speed to make time in case of late running. It is also used to test the line at commercial speeds of 360km/h.


Detto for the TGV on the Lyon-Marseille: 330 km/h runs are quite common.

Indeed France boasts an impressive number of runs between 360 and 500km/h.

Here below I have pasted the youtube site where Y1 and Y2 are compared.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LtBPYpyBGtc

Last edited by joseph1951; December 26th, 2008 at 06:22 PM. Reason: additons
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Old December 26th, 2008, 09:30 PM   #255
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wrong! it's the opposite

ETR 500 Y1 (which did the record @ 355 km/h) has 8 carriages; since you are italian read here http://www.ferrovie.it/phpBB2/viewto...113e2f910423d8

Quote:
Attenzione gli ETR dignostici di RFi sono 2:

Y1 - 8 carrozze che si trova in giro per l'Italia a fare prove di segnalamento e misure relative al contatto pantografo-linea aerea.

Y2 - 3 carrozze attualemente (di cui 1 presa da un treno di serie) che si trova in Turchia per effettuare prove sulla nuova Linea AV (il treno dovrebbe essere strumentato con dispositivi atti a valutare le caratteristriche della dinamica di marcia)
[...]

on the french sud-est/mediterranean HSL ,the top commercial speed is 320 km/h and not over only between valence and avignon. on the rest of the line speed is "limited" @ 300 km/h.

since there is more and more traffic on this HSL, last timetable is slightly increased for no-stop TGVs paris-marseille (4 minutes more, 3h03'). but this is normal considering the amount of traffic on this track.

I hope that also in italy there may be a similar situation within some years.
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Last edited by dreaad; December 26th, 2008 at 09:41 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 09:46 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
wrong! it's the opposite

ETR 500 Y1 (which did the record @ 355 km/h) has 8 carriages; since you are italian read here http://www.ferrovie.it/phpBB2/viewto...113e2f910423d8




on the french sud-est/mediterranean HSL ,the top commercial speed is 320 km/h and not over only between valence and avignon. on the rest of the line speed is "limited" @ 300 km/h.

since there is more and more traffic on this HSL, last timetable is slightly increased for no-stop TGVs paris-marseille (4 minutes more, 3h03'). but this is normal considering the amount of traffic on this track.


The link you have posted refers to the old FOL website. The post on The ETR500 Y1 and Y2 dates back to 7 September 2007.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since then FOL (ferrovie on Line) has change to a new FOL website!!!!!!!!!!

Since the ETR500's Y1 and Y2 are conventional (test) train with top and tail locos, the composition of ETR500 Y1 an Y2 is variable.

I have posted various youtube videos of ETR500 Y1 and Y2 on Milan-Bologna, some of them running in parallel with ETR50O destined to passengers , etc
The Milan-Bologna 334km/ record was obtained with the ETR Y1 (according to the video)

I also posted ERT50 Y series for the testing of the Milan-Florence HSL, where the train have reached a fantistic speed of 316km/h.
Why don't you watch first the videos?

To test a newly built line at speeds well above the maximum planned speed of the new line is a standard practice. After the completion of the first part of the Paris -Lyon, the line was tested with a TGV at 380 km/h .Then that section wento into service with an initial top speed of 260Km/h.

Before the commercial opening of the first section of the LGV sud Est, the train+line envelope was tested to the limit of 574,8 km/h.

574,8 km/h of record speed , and initial maximum speed in revenue service of 320 km/h .

Therefore the inital max revenue speed is 254.8 km/h lower than that of the of the record speed achieved.
Or , if you prefer, the maximum revenue speed = is 79% lower than the record speed attained on the same line.

If I were to apply the French parameters to the Italian record speed of 355 km/h to the claimed max revenue speed of 300/km and 350km/h (as claimd by several of you) then the revenue speed to be implemented in revenue regime, on the MI-BO HSL should less than 200km/h, for the ETR500 in heavy composition of 12 carriages.

So, the French are more prudent than the Italians.


Please note that, in France, in the last 5-10 years, many trains over several lines, have made many runs at speed around 400km/h and also above 500km/h.


For SNCF is pretty standard procedure to make a record speed, and then to reduce that speed in commercial revenue by 150-250 km/h



The commercial opening of the first section of the LGV Sud Est took SNCF by surpirse they were limited to sell only 1 million tickets because overwhelmed by the demand. They had insufficient TGVs to satisfy the clients' demand. As a matter of fact SNCF is desperately short of TGVs.

Once upon a time the SNCF practices which this company still uses today, were
also used by the Italian FS enginneers.
=====

In 1998 a reduce rake formation of the ICE1 was tested at above 400 km/h

Last edited by joseph1951; January 4th, 2009 at 11:07 PM. Reason: addition/editing
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Old December 26th, 2008, 10:04 PM   #257
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because the last record @ 355 km/h was done with Y1 that has 8 carriages.
and these diagnostic trains were not ever modified.
if RFI needs a reduced trainset, it uses the Y2.

also for the approval of the ETR500 for commercial speed of 300 km/h (10% more, so 330 km/h) there were used ETR500 with 8 carriages.

in your video, there is only written Y1 vs Y2 but it doesn't specify which is the Y1 and Y2.

other proofs:

Quote:
L’ETR 500 Y1, convoglio diagnostico di Trenitalia, ha battuto lo scorso 1º marzo, alle ore 17,23, il precedente record italiano di velocità, raggiungendo la velocità di 355 km/h tra...http://www.duegieditrice.it/tuttotre...lt.asp?num=218

by FOL on the 24 of September 2008 (is it enough recent??)
http://www.ferrovie.it/phpBB2/viewto...1b46e40babed80

Quote:
con 14 vetture i 300km/h li vedono con il binocolo....già con 8 dell'Y1 nei tratti in salita....
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Old December 26th, 2008, 11:15 PM   #258
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[QUOTE=dreaad;29897320]because the last record @ 355 km/h was done with Y1 that has 8 carriages.
and these diagnostic trains were not ever modified.
if RFI needs a reduced trainset, it uses the Y2.

Reply:
not necessarily One of then is equipped to test the overhead line. The other more equipped for the track



also for the approval of the ETR500 for commercial speed of 300 km/h (10% more, so 330 km/h) there were used ETR500 with 8 carriages.

Reply:

And here "ci casca l'asino" or is "where the donkey drops dead"
For the very well knon UIC homologation rule (vmax +10%) the ETR500 was homologated (or certified) for 300 km/h running only in composition of 2 locos +8 carriages"


The "ETR500 Frecciarossa AV fast" (but couldn't they choose a shorter and less pompous name?) running on Milan -Bologna HSL is made of 2 locos + 12 carriages.

Thus effectively limiting the top speed at 250 km/h. In fact during the normal runnings it potters along at 220-254 km/h . Only exceptionally, and if late, - it dashes for about 30 km or 5 minutes - at 300-303 km/h.

This does not mean a sustained maximum commercial speed at 300 km/h.

Furthermore, during the 18 hours a day, during which the HSL is operational there are about 15-16 trains in each direction. 1 Train per hour!!!!!!!!!!!
--------------------

in your video, there is only written Y1 vs Y2 but it doesn't specify which is the Y1 and Y2.
Reply:
You can check the youtube page which I have indicated. On the right handside of the page you will see a long list of Y1 and Y2 videos.
I am sure you can do that.

------------------------------

Rome -Naples HSL.
Opened in 2005.
Initially the journey time was 1h and 27 minutes for 204 km.
Now the journey time has been reduced to 1h 21 minutes Km 204:81 x60) = 151 km/h, of average speed.
The number of HSL trains available on this line is limited to 10-14 pairs a day.

In the early '70 the EMUs Ale 601, running on the historical Rome-Naples line, were making the journey Rome Naples in 1h 30 minutes.
Incidentally the EMU Ale 601 held for a long time the Italian speed record of 270 km/h(achieved by these EMUs in the early-mid 60, if I remember correctly) .
Thus in 2008 (almost 2009) , after having built a totally new and dedicated rail high speed line between Rome and Naples the Italian ralways has obtained a time journey reduction of 3 minutes (in the ast 40-47 years).
Congratulations!

Incidentally: what you write on the Italian websites has a quite different tone (apart from saying the the ETR500 run silky-smooth on the Rome-Naples (at an average of 150km/h).

TGV capabilities

On December 2005 I was accompaning an 83 years old quadripelgic man with assisted repiration (batteries) from London to northern Italy. We boarded the Lille-Nice TGV. The batteries got discharged almost completely just before Lyon TGV. We made an emergency stop at Lyon TGV.
Mr H. blood pressure was 290-180 and he was unconscious.
The engineers/nurses managed to recharge the batteries for an extra 28 minutes (we stopped in the Lyon station for 36 minutes).

It was not the case to put the gentleman onto the ambulance. To cross Lyon to go to the hopsital would have been too time consuming.

It was then decided to reconfigure the TGV computer (to have 17,600 kw avalable for 50 minutes), and it was decided to make a fast run from Lyon to Valence (which is a small town).
The journey Lyon-Valence start to stop was made in 15 minutes.
Mr H. now lives in Cesena. I know what a TGV is capable of. I also know very well that , in second class, the seating configurations of the TGV of the first three generations are too cramped.

But originally the TGV was meant for a 2 hour journeys

Happy Honica or Happy Hanukkah

Last edited by joseph1951; December 26th, 2008 at 11:18 PM. Reason: additions
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Old December 26th, 2008, 11:36 PM   #259
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Lyon-Valence in 15 minutes, are you sure? That would mean an average in the 350km/h range.
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Old December 27th, 2008, 12:55 AM   #260
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Lyon-Valence in 15 minutes, are you sure? That would mean an average in the 350km/h range.
Yes but it was an emergency A vital one.
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