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Old December 31st, 2008, 07:30 PM   #281
hans280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post

I wrote always the truth, admitting the current limits of italian railway and it needs improvements so i haven't to apologize with anybody.
you used this forum as your back garden writing many lies to discredit italian infrastructure... YOU have to apologize to the other forumers, not the opposite.
Mon Cher Joseph,

I fail to understand why you see a need to get quite so angry. Our friend may well have been more critical of his own country among fellow Italians than when he's put on the spot by foreigners. I seem to remember that 6-8 years ago British citizens automatically exploded when we told then the absense of a high-speed link between London and the Channel was outrageous. They could always see at least 117 reasons why the UK should not - repeat NOT - emulate continental railway strategies. And so on. It took me some time to realise that many of the same persons were bellyaching endlessly vis-a-vis other Brits about their government's non-investment.

I don't think there's any discussion that the TGV/LGV concept of France is superior to almost anything else we have in Europe these days and, by extension, better than the nascent Italian TAV system. What's the fun of stating the obvious? I think we need to congratulate our Italian friends with the signficant improvements they have achieved or are about to achieve, especially on the two sub-sections of Milan-Florence. I do, however, think that they've shot themselves a bit in the foot by connecting - as is also the case in Germany - the larger provincial towns from city centre to city centre. One loses sooOOO much time in the urban areas, even with trains that don't actually stop. This is the one Achilles heel of the TAVs as I see it and for all I know it may be due to the federational structure of Italy where local demands weigh heavier than the national interest relative to centralist countries like France and small countries such as my native Denmark. That said...

...this doesn't mean that I'm a great admirer of FS. And I do tend to laugh when people come up with Mickey Mouse arguments such as (an Italian poster did this to me a few weeks back) "Italy is full of mountains. Therefore, a full-fledged high-speed concept cannot be pursued". With examples such as Spain and Japan around I can only say... one can always find plenty of reasons for doing nothing.

Cordialement,

Hans
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Old December 31st, 2008, 11:06 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Mon Cher Joseph,

I fail to understand why you see a need to get quite so angry. .

I don't think there's any discussion that the TGV/LGV concept of France is superior to almost anything else we have in Europe these days and,..............I do, however, think that they've shot themselves a bit in the foot by connecting - as is also the case in Germany - the larger provincial towns from city centre to city centre. .......... This is the one Achilles heel of the TAVs as I see it.....as my native Denmark. That said...

...this doesn't mean that I'm a great admirer of FS. And I do tend to laugh when people come up with Mickey Mouse arguments such as (an Italian poster did this to me a few weeks back) "Italy is full of mountains.

Cordialement,

Hans
Mon Cher Hans,

First the quote mentioned by you, in the neading of your post is not mine but of the chap called dreaad.

Secondly I am Italian. I have been living in the UK for the last 28 years, and before getting seriously ill with muscle disease and ME I was quite a succesful translator.
Among others major medical and technical works I translated the technical specification of the Florence-Bologna HSL into English, and other few bits and bobs on railway issues.

Now, as you can see, I can hardly type and I am barely coherent.

Being of Italian origin, and having lived in several Countries , including USA (my late wife was of American origin), I get irritated when some of my fellow Italians are trying to tell porky pies about the Italian wonderful HSLs and their HS trains.

I find it childish, and incorrect.

It is an insult to many erudite people writing on this forum.

In the past they have already tried to disseminate porkey pies in this forum, on the same old and boring subject.

At th end they did not succede.

I know that I am far too old to respond in such an adolescent manner to a
dreaad(ful) kid with a lot of chutzpah.

I just gave him a little slap in the wrist. And then I felt quite good about it.

Then I wrote e few things on the italian section.....of this website.

It saddens me to see the total collapse of the Italian culture, and also to see Italian kids to have to resort to fictional or virtual reality.

Anyway, thanks for you kind post. I agree entirely with what you have written.

I am tkng the liberty to wish you a Very Happy and Prosperous New Year.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 09:27 AM   #283
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Ah, mille scusi, I was so convinced that you must be based in France. I guess, then, that "joseph" is shorthand for Giuseppe? Well, let me express my sympathies at your ill health (an American would say "my thoughts go out to you", but the Danish brand of protestantism tends to scoff as such grandstanding....) and wish you too a happy new year.

On the more substantial side, yeah, there is a brand of posters - not just Italian ones, by a far throw - who place themselves firmly between two chairs. IMO it is perfectly respectable to shrug at international comparisons of one's country on the grounds that "we have chosen a solution to fit our national characteristics and if the French and the Spaniards drive faster, so what?" Equally one is, I think, allowed to blow one's own horn if there's something to be proud of (e.g. Siemens's excellent Velaro train; the French LGVs uninterrupted from Calais to Marseille; the immense Swiss Gotthard Tunnel....). The problem arises when people jump up and down insisting that their country is the best in the world - amid ample evidence to the contrary. The latter is tiresome and a tad puerile. I who have several inlaws in Russia get more than my fair share of such bluster...

One point where a number of Italians seem to be in denial is the ETR 500 and this, I confess, is a mystery to me. Some time back people posted an interesting video clip of the Italian speed record. To my mind this clip demonstrated the excellent quality of the new TAV tracks, but alas also the lacklustre quality of the rolling stock. I was scolded by fellow posters for suggesting that the ETR 500 lacks in acceleration and that this may pose a problem in a HSL system with generally 150-200 km between stops (or, in case of non-stop trains, significant deceleration). However, in the meantime I have performed a little, strictly unscientific experiment: two days ago I was standing in front of an ICE3's speed indicator as it swung onto the French LGV-Est at Baudrecourt with one eye on the indicator and the other on my watch. Accelerating the train from 200 km/h to 300 km/h took slightly less than 2 (two!) minutes. I safely predict that Deutsche Bahn in the future will have a lot of fun running trains between Milan and Naples (and NTV with their new AGVs...) whereas FS will struggle with its rolling stock. - And, no amount of beautiful photos of "red arrows" (old trains in new livrees) is going to convince me otherwise. Which in a way is even sadder, because...

...IMO one of the most exciting developments in the rolling stock area in recent years is the new Pendolino ETR 610. If I were Italian I should no doubt jump up and down extolling the undeniable virtues of this second-generation train rather than trying to defend the indefensible.

Last edited by hans280; January 1st, 2009 at 10:44 AM.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 11:42 AM   #284
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...IMO one of the most exciting developments in the rolling stock area in recent years is the new Pendolino ETR 610. If I were Italian I should no doubt jump up and down extolling the undeniable virtues of this second-generation train rather than trying to defend the indefensible.
The fact is there isn't a single person trying to defend the indefensibile here. There isn't a single person who has not admitted the limits of the ETR.500. Just scroll the last four of five pages.

Nobody is denying the Italian high speed lines at the moment have some big gaps (mainly because, as pretty much everybody is trying to explain to this guy, they are not yet completed and the rolling stock is not up to the task). Those gaps are hopefully being addressed. Nobody has a problem here with admitting the TAV's current limits. The project was started in the 1990s, it's a nascent system, far from the maturity the French or Japanese high speed lines have. We all are people interested in railway technology, not blind jingoists, and we don't have any reason to deny real facts.

This doesn't mean everything is shit though, as he regularly seems to assume, ignoring all the valid points made by others and carrying on writing angry, undecipherable rants, full of inaccurate and provocative statements, each time coming out with new topics nobody has debated before, continuing to parrot silly lines and phrases, and looking very foolish in the process.

Frankly speaking, this attitude is on the edge of sounding troll-like.

I won't humble myself with name-calling but it's self-evident he's not genuinely interested in making constructive criticism, but just to provoke others.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 12:26 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
The fact is there isn't a single person trying to defend the indefensibile here. There isn't a single person who has not admitted the limits of the ETR.500. Just scroll the last four of five pages.

Nobody is denying the Italian high speed lines at the moment have some big gaps (mainly because, as pretty much everybody is trying to explain to this guy, they are not yet completed and the rolling stock is not up to the task). Those gaps are hopefully being addressed.

Nobody has a problem here with admitting the TAV's current limits. The project was started in the 1990s, it's a nascent system, far from the maturity the French or Japanese high speed lines have. We all are people interested in railway technology, not blind jingoists, and we don't have any reason to deny real facts.
This doesn't mean everything is shit though, as he regularly seems to assume, ignoring all the valid points made by others and carrying on writing angry, undecipherable rants, full of inaccurate and provocative statements, each time coming out with new topics nobody has debated before, continuing to parrot silly lines and phrases, and looking very foolish in the process.

Frankly speaking, this attitude is on the edge of sounding troll-like.

I won't humble myself with name-calling but it's self-evident he's not genuinely interested in making constructive criticism, but just to provoke others.

This statements is seriuously libellous and far from the truth. In my modest opinion it should require the intervention of the moderator of this forum.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 12:30 PM   #286
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Try to re-read what you have wrote here first, instead of playing the victim.
May I remind you have accused other forumers of posting fascist propaganda amongst other things?
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Old January 1st, 2009, 01:37 PM   #287
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I don't understand all this fury of a couple of forumers to demonstrate at all costs that the Italian TAV is lower than other European LGV, insulting and telling lies...maybe envy? I really do not understand!
Ok, we understand that you are better and we suck... now let us talk about our sick TAV?!?!?!?!?
Open a thread to show at the world that the italian high speed lines sucks, and let us discuss in peace in this thread! Thanks
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Old January 1st, 2009, 01:48 PM   #288
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Old January 1st, 2009, 01:49 PM   #289
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eDITED
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Old January 1st, 2009, 02:03 PM   #290
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Some other photos of the "Frecciargento" (ETR 600 - maximum speed 250/285 km/h)







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Old January 1st, 2009, 02:14 PM   #291
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...and "Frecciarossa" (ETR 500 - Maximum speed 300/350 km/h)










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Old January 1st, 2009, 02:30 PM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napo View Post
I don't understand all this fury of a couple of forumers to demonstrate at all costs that the Italian TAV is lower than other European LGV, insulting and telling lies...maybe envy? I really do not understand!
Ok, we understand that you are better and we suck... now let us talk about our sick TAV?!?!?!?!?
Napo(litano?), I hope that you don't include me in your definition of a "couple of forumers"? After all, my posting yesterday had as its main purpose to suggest, through conciliation, that Joseph adopt a much less agressive tone.

Secondly, since this forum has national language sections for discussions among Arabs/Italians/Russians/Whatever... I suppose that making a posting in the "World Forums" is intended to invite a comparison with other countries and/or trigger a discussion based on best practices abroad? Your use of the word "we" worries me a bit because it looks like you want to make a point about "foreigners not welcome"? On points of substance I would personally not posit that "Italian TAV is (s)lower than other European LGV", nor am I in the business of lying to other people.

My basic position is that, in Europe, two competing models are developing: one "Western" (Spain, France and, potentially, Britain and Portugal) based on relatively few new lines, built uncompromisingly for speed over the medium- to long distances; another "Eastern" model (Germany, Italy and Alpine countries) relies more heavily on the legacy railway infrastructure and the existing transport hubs in the large cities. The latter model compromises the effective speed over long distances, but may be more efficient when the majority of rail passengers travel between neighbouring agglomerations. I have voiced this view in countless German and Swiss contexts without anyone taking offense. In the case of Italy I have additional worries about the sustainability of the "Eastern" model because the born-again "Frecciarossa" seems not to be very suitable for this concept. That is all. If you hold these views to be offensive then... well, then I don't understand the purpose of an English-language discussion forum.

Hans

PS: Thanks for the additional photos of the new Pendolino. Like I said I love that train.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 02:46 PM   #293
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Don't worry Hans...I don't include you in my definition of a "couple of forumers"
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Old January 1st, 2009, 02:52 PM   #294
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Another interessant clips about the Frecciargento



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Old January 1st, 2009, 03:12 PM   #295
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My basic position is that, in Europe, two competing models are developing: one "Western" (Spain, France and, potentially, Britain and Portugal) based on relatively few new lines, built uncompromisingly for speed over the medium- to long distances; another "Eastern" model (Germany, Italy and Alpine countries) relies more heavily on the legacy railway infrastructure and the existing transport hubs in the large cities. The latter model compromises the effective speed over long distances, but may be more efficient when the majority of rail passengers travel between neighbouring agglomerations.
I beg to disagree.
The concept of TAV lines is much more similar to the French LGVs than the German or Swiss ICEs: new lines built from scratch, 300 km/h+ speed, no shared traffic with slower trains vs. realignment and upgrading of legacy infrastructures, 220-250 km/h (occasionally 300 km/h), shared traffic. This at least on the main line from Turin to Naples (except the Direttissima). Other lines such as the Milan-Venice are in fact closer to the German lines in concept, still they are new lines and not legacy ones (wonder what lines are you referring to)

Then of course it should be noted that the TAV is at an early stage of developement compared to the LGV, but that's another kettle of fish.
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Old January 1st, 2009, 03:38 PM   #296
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Yeah, I have to take half a step backwards here. What you're basically saying (?) is that the TAV network may currently be observationally equivalent with the German system because a lot of new lines - or partial lines - are running badly behind scedule, the Direttissima not yet upgraded, etc. I cannot disagree with that: the famous "Italian T", when it finally materialises, will become a more "through-composed" system than the German(ic) patchworks of individual HSLs between neighbouring cities.

Perhaps we should add a third category to my typology... Something about building consistently fast lines but continuing to pass through (or underneath) the main cities on the route? Two countries, in particular, seem one step away from establishing themselves as champions of this category: Italy and the Netherlands. If the Belgians ever close the hole between Brussels and Antwerp we can add them as well.

What would one call such a heterogenous group of countries? The "City States"? Historically that wouldn't be far off the mark. So, in terms of HS concepts we now have "The Atlantic Plains" vs. "The City States" vs. "The Thrifty Germanics"....
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Old January 1st, 2009, 06:03 PM   #297
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Some other photos of the "Frecciargento" (ETR 600 - maximum speed 250/285 km/h)

When, and where was the ETR600 frecciargento certified for 285 km/h of max speed?

In the Alstom catalogue the max speeds given for the several types of the new pendolinos of 4th generation are between 200 and 275km/h.

On the same catalogue there is no mention of pendos of 4th generation certifed for a top speed of 285km/h.

An increase in the top speed of this type of trains would be wonderful.

I am always been a great advocate of pendolinos, and my regret is that the projected Fiat Pendoloino Avril (vith a max speed of 320km/h ) was never built.
Is the ETR600 red -white-silver blue Frecciargento, capable of 285 km/h, a tilting train produced Alstom? Or is it not?


http://www.transport.alstom.com/home...ical/products/

I am taking the liberty off wishing you a Very Happy New Year

Last edited by joseph1951; January 1st, 2009 at 06:13 PM. Reason: additions
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Old January 1st, 2009, 07:12 PM   #298
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...and "Frecciarossa" (:
The official max speed, so far made public, for the ETR600 frecciarossa is 250km/h.

However it is surpisingly amazing and pleasant to discover that during the Christmas Season 2008 the ETR600 has managed to increase its top speed to
285 km/h.

The puzzling element of this entire matter, seems to be the fact that Alstom, on its webiste, still states that the Pendolino ETR600 frecciargento has a top speed of 250km/h.

How can they be so forgetful?

As far as I know the shinkansen N700 is a tilting train, with an active tilting mechasnism limited to 1 cant deficiency and with a top speed of 300km/h.

In spite of having only an active tilting mechanism of 1 cant deficiency, the N700 can negotiates the 2,500 metres radius curves of the Tokyo -Osaka at 270 km/h.

The new 285km/h top speed of the ETR600 can only be warmly welcomed.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N700_Series_Shinkansen

Last edited by joseph1951; January 1st, 2009 at 07:16 PM. Reason: additions
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Old January 1st, 2009, 07:19 PM   #299
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http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...0080a3e90aRCRD

Quote:
I treni Eurostar Italia Alta Velocitā ti offrono un modo di viaggiare comodo e sicuro. Oggi la flotta AV č composta dai seguenti treni:

Frecciarossa - velocitā 300/350 km all’ora
Frecciargento - velocitā 250/285 km all’ora
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Old January 1st, 2009, 08:44 PM   #300
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both ERT 600 and ERT500 have very impressive designs. what are their destintions?
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