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Old January 1st, 2009, 09:08 PM   #301
joseph1951
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Yes but these data are on the new commercial Trenitalia web-site.

The commercial web sites first describes:

The ETR500 Freccirossa AV as having top speeds of 300-350 km/h.

Frecciargento with top speeds of 250-285 km/h
and
Frecciabianca with top speeds of 220-230 Km/h

Then, the Trenitalia web site gives the specification for the ETR500 Fraccirossa AV, stating a Max speed of 300 km/h, which is the certified max speed for this type of train.

The Frecciargento, i.e: the ETR600, has a maximum certified and homologated speed of 250km/h. And as such is descrbed and homologated by the manufacturer.


The Freccciabianca (ESCity) is made of the 1st series of the 3 kV ETR500 locos , now reclassified E414, used in composition with 10 "revamped" carriages, UIC X , Z, and some GC, which have a top speed of 200km/h.

One thing is to state the true top speed homologated, according to the International UIC rules, which are mandatory.

A totally different matter is publicising non-homolagated speed for commercial purposes.

At best, this is an unethical marketing exercise to confuse the public. But it is an exercise which might well be in breach of UIC regulations, which rules on such matters.

Such misdescrption of "goods" can be sbmitted to the judiciary. The EU legislation and also the UIC rules are pretty stringent on such matters.

One might question the legality of Trenitalia's pubblicity stunt.

There is no unmodified bogie mounted on revamped GC or X o Z carriages which is homologated to circulate above 200km/h.
These bogies can circulate above 200km/ but with due modifications which, to my knowledge, have not been made on the carraiages in composition with the E414 (Ex locos E404, of the ETR500 , first series + 10 200km/ standard , revamped carriages).

Last edited by joseph1951; January 1st, 2009 at 09:14 PM. Reason: additions
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Old January 1st, 2009, 09:16 PM   #302
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destintions?? i don't know this word. maybe designers.

in this case,ETR600 was designed by giugiaro (designer of turin), who also created the new red-grey-black livery for high speed trains (IMHO very beatiful except the red "face" of the ETR500 ), the stylized "AV" symbol (alta velocità, high speed) on the flanks and the penultimate generation of italian tilting trains (ETR 460/470/485) able to run @ 250 km/h (except ETR470 limited @ 200 and used for international service in Swiss).

ETR500 was designed by pininfarina instead (he's also a designer of turin), like its interior.

@napo: joseph is right
ETR600 was tested @ 275 km/h (250+10%) as prescribed by the UIC rules . so the max commercial speed of this train is 250 km/h.
trenitalia writes these speeds only for commercial purposes.
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Old January 4th, 2009, 11:15 PM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
destintions?? i don't know this word. maybe designers.

in this case,ETR600 was designed by giugiaro (designer of turin), who also created the new red-grey-black livery for high speed trains (IMHO very beatiful except the red "face" of the ETR500 ), the stylized "AV" symbol (alta velocità, high speed) on the flanks and the penultimate generation of italian tilting trains (ETR 460/470/485) able to run @ 250 km/h (except ETR470 limited @ 200 and used for international service in Swiss).

ETR500 was designed by pininfarina instead (he's also a designer of turin), like its interior.

@napo: joseph is right
ETR600 was tested @ 275 km/h (250+10%) as prescribed by the UIC rules . so the max commercial speed of this train is 250 km/h.
trenitalia writes these speeds only for commercial purposes.

Which you have disseminated on an international forum for what purposes?

And this is not the first time you do this. You tried about a year ago..or so..... When first I intervene.
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Old January 11th, 2009, 09:10 PM   #304
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Guys, sorry if I'm flogging a dead horse, but I do have a question that has generally been bogging me. I apologise in advance if it seems a bit hostile to FS/TAV - especially as I, and in particular our friend Joseph, have in the past taken potshots at the emerging Italian HS concept. The thing I would truly like to understand is this:

The distance between Milan and Rome is - if I can read the TAV maps made available on Italian websites - some 560 km following the new HSLs plus the Direttissima. The travel time for high-speed trains without stop in Bologna and Firenze is expected to be 3 hours. In my book that makes for an effective speed of just under 190 km/h hours between the two metropoles. Now... on a first generation HS track like in Germany or - these days - in Belgium and South England this is a reasonable achievement. But, if FS really, REALLY means 300 km/h thoughout its network then it's unbelieveably crummy. So... can someone PLEASE tell me what's going on here? Why are the trains between Milan and Rome scheduled to travel significantly slower than the trains between Paris and Tours who - they too - have 300 km/h as their travel speed?
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Old January 12th, 2009, 03:07 AM   #305
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First of all, because between Rome and Florence (255 km out of 560 km), trains will run at 250 km/h on the old Direttissima.
Then, because trains will have to slow down in Bologna and Florence, and you know, the ETR.500 has a rather poor acceleration.
Ultimately, Trenitalia timetables are very conservative, since they are afraid to pay large delay refunds to passengers. Actual travel times are shorter, it is not uncommon for trains to cover the Milan-Rome line in 3h15min today.

I'm confident that with new trains, NTV competition, tighter timetables and once the high-speed tunnel in Bologna will be completed (2012), travel times can be as short as 2h 30min.
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Old January 12th, 2009, 10:51 AM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
First of all, because between Rome and Florence (255 km out of 560 km), trains will run at 250 km/h on the old Direttissima.
Then, because trains will have to slow down in Bologna and Florence, and you know, the ETR.500 has a rather poor acceleration.
Ultimately, Trenitalia timetables are very conservative, since they are afraid to pay large delay refunds to passengers. Actual travel times are shorter, it is not uncommon for trains to cover the Milan-Rome line in 3h15min today.

I'm confident that with new trains, NTV competition, tighter timetables and once the high-speed tunnel in Bologna will be completed (2012), travel times can be as short as 2h 30min.
I agree with Federico (and that doesn't happen very often )

On top there is a limitation at 240 km/H also around Modena in the Milano-Bologna line. Anyway Italy being a country of cities more similar to Germany than France this suits fairly well for the country which doesn't just need a fast connection between its two capitals, Milan and Rome, but also good connections of its other important cities on or connected to these new AV lines (Torino, Napoli, Bologna, Firenze, Verona, Venezia-Padova) with each other.
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Old January 12th, 2009, 01:32 PM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
First of all, because between Rome and Florence (255 km out of 560 km), trains will run at 250 km/h on the old Direttissima.
Then, because trains will have to slow down in Bologna and Florence, and you know, the ETR.500 has a rather poor acceleration.
Ultimately, Trenitalia timetables are very conservative, since they are afraid to pay large delay refunds to passengers. Actual travel times are shorter, it is not uncommon for trains to cover the Milan-Rome line in 3h15min today.
Many thanks, Federico. Yeah, it looks like a number of small problems conspire. I initially discarded the slightly lower speed on the Direttisima because I thought that, well, with Vmax 250 km/h they can still roll comfortably above 200 km/h, but I guess the top speeds on the oldest part (the southern third as far as I know) of this line are also not yet quite up to 250 km/h? We were discussing some weeks ago the pending upgrades of the Direttisima to shave off another few minutes of travel time. Then there's the passthrough of Florence and Bologna plus, as Eddard mentioned, the kink in the line next to Modena. The one point that WILL in my view be successfully amended by the advent of AGVs is the acceleration in and out of these go-slow zones: from what I hear that train is a real sprinter! Finally, the point about delay refunds was news to me: I'm aware that the AVEs between Madrid and Barcelona are significantly slower than they need to be for this reason, but I'm surprised - and, frankly, a bit disappointed - that we shall expect the same in Italy. Ah well...
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Old January 12th, 2009, 02:54 PM   #308
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Another problem with the old Direttissima between Florence and Rome is the 3kv DC overhead wiring. DC is not really the right voltage for high performance train running. There are plans to equip the old line AC power as the nwe line from Milano to Bologna. That would be quite beneficial for the high speed trains and could allow them to reach their full performance.

I really think that we could see 2:30 running time between Milano and Rome in the not so distant future.
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Old January 12th, 2009, 05:48 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Many thanks, Federico. Yeah, it looks like a number of small problems conspire. I initially discarded the slightly lower speed on the Direttisima because I thought that, well, with Vmax 250 km/h they can still roll comfortably above 200 km/h, but I guess the top speeds on the oldest part (the southern third as far as I know) of this line are also not yet quite up to 250 km/h? We were discussing some weeks ago the pending upgrades of the Direttisima to shave off another few minutes of travel time. Then there's the passthrough of Florence and Bologna plus, as Eddard mentioned, the kink in the line next to Modena. The one point that WILL in my view be successfully amended by the advent of AGVs is the acceleration in and out of these go-slow zones: from what I hear that train is a real sprinter! Finally, the point about delay refunds was news to me: I'm aware that the AVEs between Madrid and Barcelona are significantly slower than they need to be for this reason, but I'm surprised - and, frankly, a bit disappointed - that we shall expect the same in Italy. Ah well...
I fully expect that once the deregulation of the railwaysector is finished, we'll see a similar evolution of the travelmarket that the airtravelmarket went through 10 years ago. Lowfare operators will compete with the old ex governmental operators.

I fully expect up to 3-4 different companys competing on the Milan-Rome line aswell on the Spanish and Frensh ditto. The lowfare operators won't give a bugger about refunds and keeping the trains on time, they'll just run as fast as the tracks permit and try to kill the copetition with cheat tickets.

Refunds, 99%+ trains on time and gourmet meals in firstclass will very uncommon in the future. I predict way cheaper tickets but also a service that will be less reliable as the competition will force every operator to cut corners, just like it is today in the airtravelmarket.
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Old January 13th, 2009, 07:48 AM   #310
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I fully expect that once the deregulation of the railwaysector is finished, we'll see a similar evolution of the travelmarket that the airtravelmarket went through 10 years ago. Lowfare operators will compete with the old ex governmental operators.

I fully expect up to 3-4 different companys competing on the Milan-Rome line aswell on the Spanish and Frensh ditto. The lowfare operators won't give a bugger about refunds and keeping the trains on time, they'll just run as fast as the tracks permit and try to kill the copetition with cheat tickets.

Refunds, 99%+ trains on time and gourmet meals in firstclass will very uncommon in the future. I predict way cheaper tickets but also a service that will be less reliable as the competition will force every operator to cut corners, just like it is today in the airtravelmarket.

------------------------------


REFI and Italferr web sites

sped restriction:
http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20Junction.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20junction.pdf

---------------

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...NCE%20line.pdf



http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...LAN%20line.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...LES%20line.pdf

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Italian mixed traffic HSL Florence-Rome was built with a maximum planning speed of 250km/h, and was energised under the 3kV dc, like the historical Florence-Rome Line.

The two HSL tracks were meant, and are used,- as a single mixed traffic line for goods trains, as well as, for slow, semi-fast, and fast passenger trains.

The slow line is extremely slow. It is 316 kms long and windy, and over 50% of its length is in curves, which can be negotiated at speeds of 95-105 km/h (i'e: the Rome-Orte section)

The four tracks of the Florence-Rome HSL section are already at a saturation points on their extremities, namely on the Rome-Orte section (about 83 km) and on the Alto Mugello-Florence section (for about 30-40 km).

The mixed traffic HSL Rome-Florence line is pivotal to the entire Milan - Naples HSL corridor.

These problems are well known.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The HSL Florence-Rome was built for:
Goods trains: max speed 100-120 -160km/h
Inter-regional trains max speed 140-160/km/h
Long distance express trains: max speed 140-160/km/h
IC trains: max speed: 180-200km/h
Pure HS trains max speeds: 220-250

231 km of the HSL Florence -Rome are high speed, the end sections have speed restrictions from Rovezzano to Florence -Campo di Marte, and from Settebagni to Rome-Termini (16km).

On the Florence-Bologna Section when the new HSL line will be finally buit and fully operational there will be 5 speed restrctions (with top theoretical speeds of 80-80-100-100 100-100km/h).

(Please refer to the RFI/ITalferr projects posted below, illustrating the technical characteristics of the Florence and Bologna Junctions)

In the past, only a few Pendolinos ETR450 were able to reach the top speed of 250km for half or 2 third of he high speed section. Quite a few times the ETR450 running late, were able to run over the 231 km long high speed section at 260-270 km/h, just to make up time. At the time, Rome-Florence journey times of 1h 10 minutes were achieved by some pendolinos, these timings were achieved between 1988 and 1993.

Now, with the more stringent train control systems, and with an increased number of trains running on the FI-Rome HSL at different speeds, it is difficult to reach those top speeds.

Because the Florence -Rome HS line (also known as the DD) is energized under 3000 volt dc wiring, the ETR500 trains are allowed to use the 2 pantographs up to 200km/h.

Above this speed only one pantograph must be used, and the second locomotive will travel as a dead weight.

On the ETR500, one 68t loco develops only 4,400 kW, and has to pull a train weighing 660t (inclusive of passenger weight, calculated at 70 % seat capacity) at speed above 200km/h.

It is obvious that with a power/weight ratio of 6.6 kW/ton, distributed on only 2 bogies the acceleration from 200km/h to 250km/h will be slow.

Also, under these conditions the active locomotive is obviously under severe effort, and near the limit of adherence.

This will considerably shorten the life of these locomotives. Obviously, this is self-explanatory.

Therefore at speeds above 200km'/h under the HS Florence -Rome the ETR500 performance is quite mediocre.

A lighter tilting train, with more power/weight ratio has done better, and could still do better.

It is also of common knowledge the the max theoretical speed of a very busy mixed traffic HS line cannot be sustained for the entire length of the HS line.

It is also obvious that the max commercial speed is a compromise speed between the maximum theorethical speed and the commercial max speeds achievabe in a HSL, on which several types of trains run at several different speeds.

Of the entire Italian HSL North-South rail network, the Florence-Rome 4 track section, is the busiest one. To interrupt two racks on this section, just to change and rewire the overhead cables means to interrupt the North -South traffic the Italian Peninsula.
Only a small percentage of the trains which use this very important and critical part of the North-South HS network, can be rerouted via the Tyrrhenian Line which -incidentally - has not been upgraded.


Refi – ITALFERR

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...0080a3e90aRCRD

Last edited by joseph1951; January 18th, 2009 at 06:40 AM. Reason: typos
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Old January 13th, 2009, 12:37 PM   #311
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Joseph, I think in the last years works have been done on the Firenze-Roma (the oldest AV of Europe...even thought it's a strange beast) concerning mainly the switch from 3K to 25K. Basically on some stretches the power line has been already adapted (and other stretches will follow) in order to be able to switch quickly (when and if needed) from 3K to 25K. This specifically for the Settebagni-Orte section. Anyone correct me if I am wrong

Moreover most non-AV trains (particularly the local ones) have been moved to the slow line this year, to make room for AV trains. The parts which are more congested are in fact near Rome and Florence due to the local trains, which will run from now on the old line rather than the "fast" one.

This should (partially) resolve the problems of this line of capacity and speed. Of course is a AV line that wasn't planned like the French AV, so it will never have those performances. But TI confirmed it will reduce travel time between Roma and Firenze to 1H and 20 minutes which I think is acceptable and 2 dedicated tracks to AV is more than enough right now for italian traffic, both TI and NTV

So I do not see so many complications in using this line for the AV system.
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Old January 13th, 2009, 03:43 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan
Refunds, 99%+ trains on time and gourmet meals in firstclass will very uncommon in the future. I predict way cheaper tickets but also a service that will be less reliable as the competition will force every operator to cut corners, just like it is today in the airtravelmarket.
I both agree and disagree. Some time soon HS travel will no longer be considered as a luxury and - as happened with air travel - then frills like gourmet meals will no doubt dissapear. Perhaps refunds will disappear as well in the case of cut-throat competition, but I certainly doubt that timeliness will suffer. That might be the case on absolute point-point routes (like Marseille-Paris) but in integrated networks where a lot of passengers depend on connecting trains - and leave themselves much, much less time for changing trains than they would when traveling transit through airports - timeliness becomes a chief competitive parameter. I would expect frills to be cut, but timeliness to move to the forefront.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
Of course is a AV line that wasn't planned like the French AV, so it will never have those performances. But TI confirmed it will reduce travel time between Roma and Firenze to 1H and 20 minutes which I think is acceptable and 2 dedicated tracks to AV is more than enough right now for italian traffic, both TI and NTV.
Eddard, do we know when FS expects to cut the travel time to 1h20? I ask out of pure ignorance: in the old days they maintained a TAV website - which has now been pulled down - presenting progress reports and projected finalisation dates, but even back then they never gave a date for the modernisation of the Direttissima. It was just "work to be done" in the context of the project. It looked to me as if - with everyone's eyes on the HSL construction projects - improvements to the old line were seen as a bit "unfashionable" and deferred to later. Or, maybe I'm mistaken. Can you illuminate?
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Old January 13th, 2009, 04:08 PM   #313
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Da Trainzitalia:

[IMG]http://i42.************/seqhif.jpg[/IMG]
...
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Old January 18th, 2009, 02:40 AM   #314
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Which TAV-Station is projected by Zaha Hadid? the one in Napoli?
Yes
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Old January 18th, 2009, 02:46 AM   #315
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Poor?

I don't understand what you mean with poor

If you mean that it looks a bit oldand too dirty, you're right; but now they're completely restructuring it

If you mean they have to tear down (or partly tear down) the station to add a new futuristic structure it would sound to me as a vandalic act...
I agree. But they could at least raise the height of the platforms, and /or re-pave them.
In the picture, they look a bit low, old, and ...tatty.

Last edited by joseph1951; January 24th, 2009 at 10:03 PM.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 03:02 AM   #316
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Are there high speed trains leaving from Venice to Rome? How long do they take?

Grazie!
From Venice to Rome there are some trains classified as high speed trains. The journey time is about 4 hours for 518km long journey. Average commercial speed: about 130km/h.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 03:24 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
Fastest I found tomorrow
11:54 MESTRE
16:03 ROMA TE duration 04:09
I am afraid Venezia Mestre IS NOT the Venice station.
The Venice station is in Venice, and it is called "Venezia Santa Lucia". Venice Santa Lucia is the Terminal Station in Venice.

A train leaving from Venezia Santa Lucia (Venice SL) has to travel for about 9 km over the lagoon rail bridge, in order to reach (Venice) Mestre Station.

To board a train in Venice SL and then to change at Mestre, then to catch a Mestre-Rome HS train, is time consuming. It takes 8-10 minutes from Venice to Mestre then there is the change of platform and, finally, the waiting time for the connection, in order to board the HS train Mestre - Rome.

Unfortunately, given the fact tha Venice is built on small islands, on the Venetian lagoon, there is little one can do about it.
But, in the early an foggy mornings of late Autumn, the fog blends with the sea, and the train seems to be floating on the air.

It is an unsual experience, quite unique, and at times, when a pale orange sun strive to pierce the fog, the experience can a bit surrealistic.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 03:53 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A map with the number of train pairs of the 2008 timetable:

http://www.milanotrasporti.org/forum...e_BO-FI-RM.jpg

All long distance trains between Bologna, Firenze and Roma are shown, but not on the other branches, which have more trains.

EuroStar trains between Milano and Firenze run on the classic lines, taking about 2h45. InterCity trains take 3h15 but have more stops.

For Milano-Roma, actual travel times are: 4h05 EuroStar stopping only at Bologna, 4h30 other EuroStar, 5h50 InterCity.



Are you sure? I have never heard about that.
Correction: there were rumours about the posibility of selling three ETR500 trainsets to Turkey.

Those rumours were circulating during the use in Turkey of an ETR500 Y test train.

Subsequently, the rumours failed to turn into reality.

As far as know, the ETR500 assembly line appears to have been dismantled.
Furthermore, it would appear that the locomotives of both ETR500 series do not comply with the most recent crash-worthiness standards.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 08:04 AM   #319
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Joseph, I think in the last years works have been done on the Firenze-Roma (the oldest AV of Europe...even thought it's a strange beast) concerning mainly the switch from 3K to 25K. Basically on some stretches the power line has been already adapted (and other stretches will follow) in order to be able to switch quickly (when and if needed) from 3K to 25K. This specifically for the Settebagni-Orte section. Anyone correct me if I am wrong

1 -
Moreover most non-AV trains (particularly the local ones) have been moved to the slow line this year, to make room for AV trains. The parts which are more congested are in fact near Rome and Florence due to the local trains, which will run from now on the old line rather than the "fast" one.

This should (partially) resolve the problems of this line of capacity and speed. Of course is a AV line that wasn't planned like the French AV, so it will never have those performances. But TI confirmed it will reduce travel time between Roma and Firenze to 1H and 20 minutes which I think is acceptable and 2 dedicated tracks to AV is more than enough right now for italian traffic, both TI and NTV

So I do not see so many complications in using this line for the AV system.

Is this why the few IC/IC plus left on the Milan-Rome are scheduled for journey time of 6-7 hours? For less than 570 km long journey?

And what about the regional semi-fast and fast trains between Rome -Orte-Arezzo- Florence?
5 hours , and 4 and 1/2 hours, for 316 kms?

Does this involves the suppression of long distance day and night expresses, such as Reggio Calabria -Milan? (about 1200km long).


So the passengers travelling from Turin-Milan -Reggio Calabria or Milan-Reggio Calabria will have to use HS train during the day cover the journey in 11-12 hours at a cost far superior to that of the aeroplane, and at an average speed of 100-110km/h?

And you call this high speed rail network?

We are back to the early '60 when Italy was still struggling to rebuilt the rail network, to reconstruct the infrastructure, and to move from a destroyed pre-industrial mainly agricultural Country, to an industrial Country.

The passage between a pre-industrial Country to an industrial Country occurred between the early 60s and the mid-late 70s.

It was the so called economic boom. I witness that period, you might have not.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the Cannes premiere of the DaVinci Code, and with the short British HS line not fully built, the TGV TMST was making the journey between London and Cannes in just above 7 hours. (About 1500 kms).

Right now, it is possible to do a London-Milan fast TGV TMS train in about 9 and 1/2 hours, WITHOUT having to wait for the construction of the new High Speed line between Lyon and Turin, and without having to use of the new dodgy-but- soon-to-be-completed Milan-Turin HSL.


If this is the the best and the most advanced High speed rail system in Western Europe, with trains travelling at 350km/h and with the ETRMS 1 and ETRMS 2 firstly implemented in the world, then the automotive and aeroplane industries will be extremely grateful to TI.

Last edited by joseph1951; January 18th, 2009 at 08:13 AM.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 09:05 AM   #320
hans280
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Joseph, for pity's sake calm down. I understand your frustrations, but you'll just turn people against you by throwing your arguments at them in the form of accusations.

As I said in an earlier posting I think the main problems in the Italian TAV programme these days are the tardy planning process (and the Conferenzi di Servizi are supposed to have improved this over what it was...) and the persistent delays in execution. Once they've knitted together their famous "T" (Turin-Venice/Milan-Naples) the concept will be quite healthy - although I'd personally have recommended a bypass at Bologna and Florence as well as some better connections into and out of Milan. The problem is... in the interim the whole thing works so haphazardly that one inevitably scoffs at the notion "high speed".
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