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Old January 18th, 2009, 03:28 PM   #321
joseph1951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Joseph, for pity's sake calm down. I understand your frustrations, but you'll just turn people against you by throwing your arguments at them in the form of accusations.

As I said in an earlier posting I think the main problems in the Italian TAV programme these days are the tardy planning process (and the Conferenzi di Servizi are supposed to have improved this over what it was...) and the persistent delays in execution. Once they've knitted together their famous "T" (Turin-Venice/Milan-Naples) the concept will be quite healthy - although I'd personally have recommended a bypass at Bologna and Florence as well as some better connections into and out of Milan. The problem is... in the interim the whole thing works so haphazardly that one inevitably scoffs at the notion "high speed".
Thank you, Hans
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Old January 19th, 2009, 05:23 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Joseph, for pity's sake calm down. I understand your frustrations, but you'll just turn people against you by throwing your arguments at them in the form of accusations.

As I said in an earlier posting I think the main problems in the Italian TAV programme these days are the tardy planning process (and the Conferenzi di Servizi are supposed to have improved this over what it was...) and the persistent delays in execution. Once they've knitted together their famous "T" (Turin-Venice/Milan-Naples) the concept will be quite healthy - although I'd personally have recommended a bypass at Bologna and Florence as well as some better connections into and out of Milan. The problem is... in the interim the whole thing works so haphazardly that one inevitably scoffs at the notion "high speed".
In a (very) distant future there may be the possibility to build bypass at Bologna and Firenze, but actually under both cities there are tunnel AV lines under construction. These will not be AV speed since trains will be supposed to slow down or stop at the respective stations, but they will be far faster than existin "surface" lines and dedicated to AV, without traffic problems. I think for now it's enough.

Given the fact that both cities are close to the mountains it's very hard to build a bypass, it has to be basically another 10-20km tunnel for each city...expensive and useful only to cut 5-10 minutes for the nonstop trains between Rome and Milan...that's why probably it was not planned so.

About the Milan-Reggio trains I remind people these are 1300km apart. Italy is a very long country, AV trains will never travel the whole lenght of Italy. There will be AV trains between Rome and Milan and between Rome and Reggio on the tip of the peninsula but it will never be competitive economically or time-wise to travel by train between Milan and Reggio. They invented planes for long-haul distances. Even with a french-style AV all the way to Reggio (with hundreds km south of Naples of mountains) the travel time would be above 6 hours.

For a comparison the longest rail route on TGV right now (Marseille-Paris) is only 750 km long.
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Old January 19th, 2009, 08:57 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
These will not be AV speed since trains will be supposed to slow down or stop at the respective stations, but they will be far faster than existing "surface" lines and dedicated to AV, without traffic problems.
Again, I would agree that it's better than the German solution where even non-stop HS trains have to waste at least 10 minutes rolling through city centres at commuter-train speeds - but it's hardly ideal either. In France we have got so used to racing past cities as if they didn't exist that the Minister for Transports said last week that "we'll soon get the financing in place for the "contournement de Strasbourg". Hello!! NO bypass is planned for Strasbourg. But... it was just unthinkable for the poor man that all trains to Germany should pass via the city centre. That said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
Given the fact that both cities are close to the mountains it's very hard to build a bypass, it has to be basically another 10-20km tunnel for each city.
...this is a fair point, and one that I hadn't thought of. Of course in my part of the world, "city limit" means flat farmland and/or deep forrests. If instead it means mountains - or, in the case of Naples, vulcanoes! - then one does have a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
About the Milan-Reggio trains I remind people these are 1300km apart... For a comparison the longest rail route on TGV right now (Marseille-Paris) is only 750 km long.
Eddard, I assume you mean Reggio Calabria? The last Reggio I visited was not far from Milan.

You're right about Paris-Marseille, of course, but please note that Paris is bypassed, so the continuation to Brussels is almost 1,100 km long and Marseille-London (albeit with only 160 km/h in the tunnel) is even longer. I also had the impression that Milan-Mezzogiorno has to dock at a terminus in Rome - though I could be mistaken.
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Old January 19th, 2009, 09:38 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post

For a comparison the longest rail route on TGV right now (Marseille-Paris) is only 750 km long.
not exactly: the longest is bruxelles-lille-marseille-nice (over 1200 km)!!

TGV service covers the entire france from the north (lille and above) to the south (côte d'azur) and from west-south west (e.g., bordeaux, nantes) to east (strasbourg)

however, i hope there will be very long high speed service in italy: from milan to reggio calabria it could take 8h15 (3h to rome + 5h15 to reggio calabria)
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Old January 19th, 2009, 10:15 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Again, I would agree that it's better than the German solution where even non-stop HS trains have to waste at least 10 minutes rolling through city centres at commuter-train speeds - but it's hardly ideal either. In France we have got so used to racing past cities as if they didn't exist that the Minister for Transports said last week that "we'll soon get the financing in place for the "contournement de Strasbourg". Hello!! NO bypass is planned for Strasbourg. But... it was just unthinkable for the poor man that all trains to Germany should pass via the city centre. That said...

...this is a fair point, and one that I hadn't thought of. Of course in my part of the world, "city limit" means flat farmland and/or deep forrests. If instead it means mountains - or, in the case of Naples, vulcanoes! - then one does have a problem.

Eddard, I assume you mean Reggio Calabria? The last Reggio I visited was not far from Milan.

You're right about Paris-Marseille, of course, but please note that Paris is bypassed, so the continuation to Brussels is almost 1,100 km long and Marseille-London (albeit with only 160 km/h in the tunnel) is even longer. I also had the impression that Milan-Mezzogiorno has to dock at a terminus in Rome - though I could be mistaken.
About Rome and Naples (other two "in between" cities in the italian AV system) they are still different from Florence and Bologna.

Rome has 2 main station, one terminal (Termini) and one pass-through (Tiburtina). The second will be dedicated to trains from Milan going south. New dedicated tracks have been built to connect directly this station to the AV line to Naples...so again it's not AV pass-though but it's dedicated. The assumption is that no trains going from north to south italy will not stop in Rome, so there is no point in building a 300km/H pass through. This doesn't mean it cannot be built in the future, however....consider though that like in the rest of Italy there are not so many empty spaces around Rome, better than Florence and Bologna (where it's phisically impossible to bypass without tunnel)

Naples is even more complicated: there we have actually a french-style pass through to avoid the city and connect in a much faster way Calabria and Salerno to Rome. This new line (already built) passes north of Vesuvius cutting also the distance. So far it reaches half way between Naples and Salerno but it can be extended of course. This line will be connected to the AV line Rome-Naples next year. A new station (Napoli Afragola) far from the city center is being built on this line for trains stopping in Naples without reaching the city center.
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Old January 23rd, 2009, 02:49 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
In a (very) distant future there may be the possibility to build bypass at Bologna and Firenze, but actually under both cities there are tunnel AV lines under construction. These will not be AV speed since trains will be supposed to slow down or stop at the respective stations,
1-
but they will be far faster than existin "surface" lines and dedicated to AV, without traffic problems. I think for now it's enough.

Given the fact that both cities are close to the mountains it's very hard to build a bypass, it has to be basically another 10-20km tunnel for each city...expensive and useful only to cut 5-10 minutes for the nonstop trains between Rome and Milan...that's why probably it was not planned so.
.

First draft- unedited
Dear Eddard,

Not necessarily "quite" faster.

Bologna crossing:

Speed restrictions:

a) 80km-100km/h under Bologna, then a slow down at San Ruffillo to negotiate a flat crossing of the two tracks of the historical line, before entering into the new AV section Bologna-Florence.

In the future this might be a bottleneck.


ii- Bologna avoiding line.

The underground crossing starts just South of Lavino (about 20 km North of Bologna).
The goods trains avoiding line starts at Lavino and bypasses Bologna, near Corticella, over the Bologna-PD line and continues with a spur to Rimini, and with another spur on the historical Bologna-Florence. It would have been possibile to put another couple of fast tracks next to the Lavino Corticella bypassing line, with a spur towards Ferrara -PD , another spur towards Rimini and the third with a direct connection with the AV /AC at Rovezzano-Florence, thus avoiding the crossing ot the historical Bologna -Florence, in order to cross over from the slow tracks to the fast tracks of Bologna -Florence HSL.

From Lavino to Rovezzano is all flat land and there is more than sufficient space to add two fast tracks to the avoiding line, which now used only for goods trains.

The orbital motorway encircling Bologna was built in this way with no problems.


Bologna Airport missing link.


The Bologna Airport.

In order to lengthen the BLQ runway there was no other option but to bury the Milan-Bologna tracks, with cut-and-cover technique, and then to put tarmac on top of the buried tracks.

This hole, 16km long, was also necessary to build the undergound tunnel which serves Bolgona undergound station. They could have escavated a larger section to add and extra pair of tracks serving directly the Bologna airport with Bologna underground and/or surfce station, on one side and also with a link to the northern side of both the historical and AV/AC lines towards Lavino. From there the trains dedicated to the airport services would have been connected directly to the mid size towns along the historical Mi-Bo line as well as Bologna -Florence historical and HS line in very litle time.


This link would also have served Rimini-Ancona.

Bologna Airport is only 5 km afar from Bologna Central Station

Alsot the airport -Bologna Central rail link would have been the first section of the Bologna Regional Metro system, on the North South route serving Bologna Airport, Bo-Centre, Bo-Railways Station, Bo- Exhibition Centre, and Bo- San Ruffillo.

The only thing that was nececessary to obtain a regiona and interregional fast rail link with the airport was to dig the long "hole" just 10-15 metres wider, for about 10 kms in length , in order to accomodate an extra pair of tracks.

The Bologna intercontinental airport handles about 4 million passengers a year, and it is trying to consolidate its role as a (small) international hub.

This missing bit will be built in the next 20-30 years at a greater cost and considerable disruption to the traffic.


Florence AV crossings

Speed restrictions at Belfiore of 80-100km, then 80-100km/h up to the beginning of the Florence-Rome high Speed line, i.e: Florence-Belfiore to Rovezzano (beginning of te AV/AC Florence-Rome).

With these speed restrictions it is difficult to envisage an increase in max speeds, allegedly achievable in the critical crossing points, compared to the present route.

The Bologna -Florence AV/AC . Perhaps it was not nececessary to built this line as a mixed traffic line, since it will be totally dedicated to HS passenger traffic.
Therefore if it had been built as a pure HSL, it will have required less tunnelling and less stringent technical specifications.

A modest upgrading of the historical Bo-Florence route, and the reduction of traffic on this line would have allowed journey times of 40 minutes between Bologna and Florence Santa Maria Novella (Florene Termini).

Some trains, running late, can sometimes achieve these timings on this very congested historical line.

Last edited by joseph1951; January 24th, 2009 at 02:18 AM.
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Old January 24th, 2009, 08:08 PM   #327
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Joseph we discussed these things over and over again...most trains between Rome and Milan will always stop at Firenze and Bologna which are important transportations hubs (Bologna: with connections to Veneto and the Adriatic) and superimportant turistic cities (Florence).

Therefore the bypasses - even though they aren't completely useless - are quite a secondary issues in the north-south connections. So trains will always slow down, stop and restart at either two or just one of these cities. And it makes complete sense

Given the fact that the existing AV line between the 2 cities will be a tunnel between the 2 city centers I cannot see how you can build now a bypass without using a tunnel.

The Bologna-Firenze is a quite weird AV line - short and almost completely in tunnel - lt's see when it will open if the system will have limitations, I do not thing so. I remind you and anybody else that the line is NOT open yet (next december)
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Old January 25th, 2009, 01:25 AM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
The bridge won't be built anytime soon (thanks God).

1-
At any rate, the TAV project is at a good stage, but it's still far from being completed. Moaning now about how long did it take, or about how small are the advantages it offers compared to old lines while all urban bypasses are still to be completed is pointless, just pointless. How many years were necessary for the TGV to reach Marseilles? Almost 30, last time I checked.

2-
In four years will be possibile to travel from Milan to Naples on brand new trains in 3h 30min. Period.
1-
Well, in Italy the construction of the "first European Line (the DD) i.e: the HSL Rome Florence started in 1970, long before the beginning of the construction of Paris-Lyon HSL, as some of you have repeatedly mentioned, but the DD was finished after 22-23 years....That' for a line 252km long of which 231km of HS tracks...........
If the Italians started building HSL lines about 10 years before the French, and if for the French it took almost 30 years to reach Marseilles , how long will it takes for the Italian rail industry to reach Reggio Calabria? Another 20 years? Probaly in the next 20 years France will have built another 1,000 kms of HSLs
2-
Milan -Naples in 3h 30 minutes? With non-stop trains trains passing through several speed restrictions? Perhaps... but only by Divine Intervention.
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Old January 25th, 2009, 01:36 AM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
it's useless... you always pretend to not understand me.OK...guys: ITALIAN HIGH SPEED RAILWAY IS RIDICOLOUS AND PATHETIC

and now you should be happy
No quite so. I do not pretend "not to understand" undertand you. I based my data on this and not on your personal "revealed truth "

I have posted this link also in your "home and cosy Italian forum".

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_v...rformance.html

Last edited by joseph1951; January 26th, 2009 at 10:46 PM.
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Old January 25th, 2009, 01:40 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Joseph we discussed these things over and over again...most trains between Rome and Milan will always stop at Firenze and Bologna which are important transportations hubs (Bologna: with connections to Veneto and the Adriatic) and superimportant turistic cities (Florence).

Therefore the bypasses - even though they aren't completely useless - are quite a secondary issues in the north-south connections. So trains will always slow down, stop and restart at either two or just one of these cities. And it makes complete sense

Given the fact that the existing AV line between the 2 cities will be a tunnel between the 2 city centers I cannot see how you can build now a bypass without using a tunnel.

The Bologna-Firenze is a quite weird AV line - short and almost completely in tunnel - lt's see when it will open if the system will have limitations, I do not thing so. I remind you and anybody else that the line is NOT open yet (next december)
NOt exactly . Yor are still maintainng that the Italian HSL lines once completed wll have journey tima shorter than the officially planned joureny time.
I simply stick to the official data.

for the Napoli Afragola 70km/h speed restriction, please refer to the link below.

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/Nodo_napoli.pdf
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Old January 25th, 2009, 02:59 PM   #331
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It looks to me as if the problem is not so much Afragola itself (140 km/h) but rather the draconian swing to the south that the line thereafter takes, which lowers the curve radius to that of a lightrail line. That's a great pity, but I suppose it's dictated by local topographic conditions.

I guess I'm more or less convinced by earlier posters that Italy cannot bypass cities as easily as France (or, if so, only at a huge cost), but I'd still have thought that purpose-built HS stations would have been designed for a fast (say, 200 km/h) passthrough speed. I'm also unconvinced by Eddard that trains must stop in Bologna because the city is sooOOO important as a railway junction. Couldn't they say the same thing about Lyon and Lille?
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Old January 25th, 2009, 05:55 PM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
It looks to me as if the problem is not so much Afragola itself (140 km/h) but rather the draconian swing to the south that the line thereafter takes, which lowers the curve radius to that of a lightrail line. That's a great pity, but I suppose it's dictated by local topographic conditions.

I guess I'm more or less convinced by earlier posters that Italy cannot bypass cities as easily as France (or, if so, only at a huge cost), but I'd still have thought that purpose-built HS stations would have been designed for a fast (say, 200 km/h) passthrough speed. I'm also unconvinced by Eddard that trains must stop in Bologna because the city is sooOOO important as a railway junction. Couldn't they say the same thing about Lyon and Lille?
first draft - unedited

Dear Hans,
Well at Afragola Station the speed limita are 140 km for 300metre the 70km/h for 3-7 kms, then the swing southward.


The whole story

=======================================================
Milan-Turin - Milan Central and
Milan-Venice section
Milan Bologna-Florence-Rome Naples HSLs


From map one can see that the the Milan Turin HSL ends at Milano Certosa , North of Milan Central.

Milan -Naples HS/HC lines and Junctions

Index
http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...0080a3e90aRCRD

(HS Turin Milan (TO-MI)- Milan Rogoredo (HS MI-Bologna)

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...0080a3e90aRCRD

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...mpaNodo_No.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/milano1.pdf



http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20junction.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...URIN%20-%20MIL

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20junction.pdf



Milan-Turin - Milan Central and
Milan Venice section
Milan Bologna-Florence-Rome Naples HSLs
[HS Turin Milan (TO-MI)- Milan Rogoredo (HS MI-Bologna)]

One can see tha the the Milan Turin HSL ends at Milano Certosa , North of Milan (Central Station).

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20junction.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...GNA%20line.pdf


From Milan Certosa Station the Turin-Naples will have to run on the historical tracks passing through Milan Lambrate and to continue towards Venice, or towards Bologna or towards Genoa.

The Lambrate station crosssing speed is about 60km/h in the three directions

Southward, the line continues to Milan-Rogoredo where the Milan-Genova (MI-GE) and the Milan -Bologna (MI-BO) lines divide.

At Milan Rogoredo there are dedicated tracks for Mi-GE and MI-Bo, but the passing through speed at Milan Rogoredo is about 110-140km/h.


From Rogoredo to Melegnano there are the two tracks (6km long) of the urban HC line and, at Melegnano (20 km south of the Milan Central Station) the HSL HS/HC begins.

Therefore Milan-Central to Milan-Lambrate 60km/h
Therefore Milan Lambrate passing throgh at 60km/h
Lambrate to Rogoredo accerleration from 60km/h to 140km , in exit from Rogoredo

Rogoredo= 140km/h Melegano = 200km/h

The green dotted line linking Milano-Porta Vittoria Stn, wih Milano Centrale Stn refers to the "Passante", wich is the Milano Regional mini-RER, with a top speed of 60km/h

In the Milan mini-RER "The Passante" the platforms are too short to accomodate HSTs, such as the ETR500.

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...0080a3e90aRCRD

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...GNA%20line.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20junction.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...nte-Milano.pdf


The Bologna and Florence Junctions and their underground stations can be crossed at speeds which do not allow any significative increase in speed compared to the existing surface routes and crossings.

In several cases the opposite is true.

For Bologna junction it appears puzzling the fact that: .

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20Junction.pdf


i) The HSL ends at Lavino (20 km/ North of BO) where the HSL speed is reduced at 200/km.
Lavino is the starting point of of the rail avoiding lines (the Bologna ceinture).

At about 4 km south of Lavino the tunnel passing through BoCentral Stn begins. From there they have excavated a long section to bury the exiting four tracks, and also to add extra undergound space for the tracks to be used for the future underground metropolitan lines.

Then the burial of the tracks was necessary to lenghten the Marconi airport runway. The airport runway passes over the underguound tracks.
In the undergound section, buried under the runway they have forgot to add another two tracks, which would have allowed direct connections with the airport and the historicl and HS lines North South - East -West..

On a straight line the Bologna Airport is only 5km from Bologna Central Station.
Therefore, the runway runs over the undergound rail corridor, roughly at mid-tunnel.

Here, if the planners had a look at the Koeln-Frankfurt airport connection to the HSL ... well.

At Bologna underground station the non-stop HSTs will have to negotiate a curve of 465 km radius, and shortly after, they will have to start climbing,
to return on the surface.

Once on the the surface the HS non-stop trains will have to negotiate an another curve of narrow radius to cross over the historical line Bo-Florence, before entering into the short section of HSL Bo-Florence.

From the map is clearly visible that the motorway ring bypasses from Lavino bypasses Bologna both on the North side, with connection with Padua- Venice , Ancona-Bari -Lecce Motorway. (A14).

Also, from Lavino the motorway ring bypases southward the centre of Bologna,continuing straight into the Bo-Flo-Rome motorway.

Next to the motorway ring encircling Bologna, there is more than sufficient space to built the rail high speed ring which bypasses Bologna junction.

After all, at least officially, the new Italian HSls' were planned to be built next to the existing and future motorways, to minimise the environmental impact...

ii) Also the map shows very clearly the Venice-Padua line (coloured in blu) entering into Bologna surface station at Corticella, and after passing Bologna Central, the blue line (of the historical rail pass) continues both South (Florence) and South West (Rimini-Bari).

Compared to the new HS line to Florence (red line) the historical line has a more gentle curve, with a greater radius.


Please refer to the maps. It will be far more clear

Bologna Junction

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...0080a3e90aRCRD

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/bologna_ok.pdf

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20Junction.pdf

============================================================
Bologna -Florence HSL
http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...NCE%20line.pdf

Florence Junction

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20junction.pdf



The same problem re-occurs at Florence Junction

i- The HSL will negotiate a short shap curve before it ends (red line) . Then the HST will enter with a tight curve (max theoretical speed of 80/kmh) before the Firenze Statuto station, then the train will pass undergound at Belfiore then, on still on underground it will have to negotiate anoter tight curve, then it will continue undergound , negotiae the third tight curve, to resurface on the historical line at Florence Campo di Marte, where there is a speed restriction of 100km for about 4 km.

Finally 4km South of Campo di Marte, at Rovezzano, the HS Florence-Rome begins (the DD) .
From the end of the HSL to the begining of the DD (Flo-RM) there will be 10-14 km with three curves and speed restrictions having max theorethical speeds of 80-100-100km/h .
Also the new section will be somewhat longer than he old section on the historical lne.



http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20junction.pdf

==========================================================
Florence Rome HSL (DD)


Rome HS . Juntion from Settebagni -Tiburtina- to the beginning of the HSL Rome- Naples abot- 10-11km Tiburina Naples (110-60km) and another 10 -11kms on the Naples side After Afragola whee the speed restrictions varies from 140 o 70 km/h, then other speed restrictions for about 11km/h, at speed range (as it it seems of- 60-220km/h) To pass from 60km/h to 220 in 11,5 km it seems failry unfeasable and certainly useless.
I suspect the the top 220km/h are theorethical and put on the brochure just for marketing pourposes........


----------------------------------------------------------------------
The same problem is present in the Rome Junction at Settebagni where the high speed line (DD) Florence-Rome ends (16 Km North of Rome Termini).
After Settebagni , there is the crossing of Rome Tiburtina Station (100km/h) then the negotiation at low speed (60km/h) of tight curve to join the Rome Naples HS Line, and avoiding Rome Termini.

Settebagni crossing max speed northward 110- 110-130km/h
Southward: the opposite
Tiburtina 100km/h (southward)
Rome Junction
Avoiding chord Rome-Naples , south of Tiburtina *60km/h??)

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/roma_ok.pdf


Naples Junction
North of Rome Termini
Speed restrction on the chord Termin Naples AV (HS) line

1- Slow down at Settebagni the at the Junction Rome Tiburtina HS 100km,
the slow down to negotiate the chord joining the HS Rome Naples (60km/h??).


Then slow down at Naples Afragola first at 140k/h ant then at 70km/h frseveral kms.

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/rfi/Nodo_napoli.pdf

Slow don fo the "urban pentration of Naples

There is another speed restriction on the Naples-Salerno junction of the HC avoiding line.

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...LES%20line.pdf

Therefore to say that "once the junctions and the undregound stations are completed and fully operational the Milan-Rome and Milan-Naples travelling time can be cut down to 2h and 2h 30 minutes respectively" is quite difficult to believe" .

Those Italian forumers who are maintiang the feasibilty of their unsubstatiatable claims are perfectly aware of the link posted, since they have been available and in the public domain since late 1980s
.

Morevover, the Turin Milan-Rome Naples HST re-routing is far longer than the historical Turin-Genova-Rome or Turin Alessandria Piacenza- Bologna routeFrom Turin, after about 200 km of the section Turin-Alessandria-Piacenza the train can take advantage of the Piacenza-Bologna HSL section, and continue on the HSL towards Bo-Flo-RM-Naples.

The rerouting on the the Turin-RM-Naples via the Milan junction, namely from Rho Exhibition Centre to Lambrate and Melegano Stations will force the HSTs to potter along the Milan "petite ceinture a petite vitesse" at 60 -100km/h for about 35 kms.

I wish you all very nice day.

Sorry for the typos, etc, etc, etc

PS : Many other official documents dealing with the Italian TVAs have either been moved (but where)?? Or no longer available on REFI/Italferr web-sites. This include the old projects for the OLD DD (the old Rome Florence HS line).

Last edited by joseph1951; January 25th, 2009 at 07:05 PM.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 10:48 AM   #333
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Mmmwell, thanks for posting these links. IMHO the ambitions for the Bologna junction do not look unappealling - 160 km/h passthrough speed is hardly a world record, but it isn't a major speed bump either. However, for a non-stop train to have to slow down to less than 100 km/h in Firenze is far from brilliant. Who designed the Florence junction? The Marx Brothers?

I'd think, however, that FS speak out of both sides of their mouth on the travel speed issue. To me it looks like their estimates are conditioned on the existing rolling stock. For example, the estimated travel times between Milan and Turin (50 minutes) imply an effective average speed of about 140 km/h. EVEN taking into account the shortness of the line AND the fact that the train runs out of Turin on quite a long stretch of classic line, it's still seriously underwhelming for an HS train. It seems to me to reflect the underpowering of FS's existing ETR500 trains, by virtue of which the train will spend most of the trip either accelerating or braking - not rolling at 300 km/h. But that could change. Given the nimbleness of an ICE3 - or I daresay Alstom's new AGV - average speeds could probably be reduced significantly. Only, for political and commercial reasons FS is in no position to go public with this.

Finally, yes, I also remember the TAV special pages that FS used to maintain until a year ago - and I too miss them. I don't know why they went off the air. I used to think that it was because of the embarassment of, month after month, announcing that this-and-the-other line will be completed presently while very little happened on the ground. But... I'm beginning to suspect something more sinister: as far as I can make out they estimated their percentage completion of the work on individual lines as the share of the money due to contractors that had already been disbursed. (I suspect they even did so partly to "name and shame" the contractors.) When controversies arose over the payments due to the contractors - who demanded massive extra sums of money - FS was faced with two unappealing alternatives: (1) continuing to list as 91% finished Bologna-Florence while every Tom, Dick and Harry had read in their newspapers that this was far from being the case; or (2) listing their new best estimate, which would have amounted to an admission of how much more they expected to have to pay to contractors while negotiations were still ongoing. At this point the site went off the air.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 01:49 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
It looks to me as if the problem is not so much Afragola itself (140 km/h) but rather the draconian swing to the south that the line thereafter takes, which lowers the curve radius to that of a lightrail line. That's a great pity, but I suppose it's dictated by local topographic conditions.

I guess I'm more or less convinced by earlier posters that Italy cannot bypass cities as easily as France (or, if so, only at a huge cost), but I'd still have thought that purpose-built HS stations would have been designed for a fast (say, 200 km/h) passthrough speed. I'm also unconvinced by Eddard that trains must stop in Bologna because the city is sooOOO important as a railway junction. Couldn't they say the same thing about Lyon and Lille?
You know what I think? France is a country that is a radious: Paris in the middle (more or less) and the country speeding to get there.

Italy has a more complex topography: do you know why Bologna is such an important hub? It connects basically all Italy. Trains come from Turin-Milan (untill now on 2 separate railways tracks, thanks to AV only one), Brennero-Verona, Trieste-Venezia and the Adriatic (Rimini-Ancona)

All these lines converge on Bologna (soon on its underground station which is linked to most of them, excluding unfortunately the Adriatic). So AV trains converge there even from railways (Bologna-Verona-Bolzano and Bologna-Venezia-Trieste) which are not (yet) AV lines. So Bologna is the main hub for rail transportation in Italy and the underground station together with the surface, traditional station will always be the main hub of Italy.

Not stopping trains there may make sense to speed up travel time but the advantage in minutes is largely lost in convenience for many many travellers.

Do you want an example? today I can cut 30 minutes of my travel time between Milan and my hometown (Pescara) by going with the AV to Bologna and catching a intercity (ESCI) train to Pescara. And it's not only a matter of time but of convenience: there are far more trains going to Rome than to Pescara and now I have much more choice compared to last year.

I hope it's clear: look at the map and you'll see what I mean and remember: Italy is a - like Germany - polycentric country and not a monocentric one like France or England
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Old January 26th, 2009, 01:59 PM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
[B]
Therefore to say that "once the junctions and the undregound stations are completed and fully operational the Milan-Rome and Milan-Naples travelling time can be cut down to 2h and 2h 30 minutes respectively" is quite difficult to believe" .

Those Italian forumers who are maintiang the feasibilty of their unsubstatiatable claims are perfectly aware of the link posted, since they have been available and in the public domain since late 1980s
.
No one wrote here that the speed time will be 2H between Rome and Milan. NO ONE.

The official project time is 3H. Considering trains run (with big time buffers) at 3:30 hours NOW without the FI-BO AV - which saves about 30 minutes to the journey time - I think this is completely feasible by next year, without even the urban connections still U/C in Bologna and Firenze. Do you agree?

Much discussion has been going on about the TI recent statement - not italian forumers, Trenitalia - that they will be able to cut it at 2H30 minutes (not 2 hours as you falsely reported)

I am unconvinced about that, for all the reasons you stated and which are project limitations (all with good reasons in my opinion, but that's another story...see previous post)

However with some adjustments to FI-Roma and a reduction of the buffers it may (may) be possible. We can agree that we do not have any certainty about that.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 02:08 PM   #336
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http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/Tim...tcom&x=32&y=11

The link above for european forumers to go check that already now trains (not every train but the ones that do not stop in Florence) can go from Rome to Milan in 3:30 hours.

Please consider the Firenze-Bologna, the underground link under Bologna and Firenze are still U/C. Total lenght about 130 km.

Please let me know if you think that by next December it will be IMPOSSIBLE to go between the 2 cities in 3 hours. Consider only the AV under the appennines will save 27 minutes.

Finally tell me if, in your opinion, with all the constructions above done, if it will not be possible to go under the 3 hours.

I think for sure. I do not know if it will be 2:30 minutes, but something in between for sure.

All the rest is just talk
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Old January 26th, 2009, 03:56 PM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
Bologna is the main hub for rail transportation in Italy and the underground station together with the surface, traditional station will always be the main hub of Italy.
Well, Florence on the other side of the Appenines plays the same role I suppose? These two cities grew big already in mideval times as fixpoints on the main crossing of the mountains. Nihil novi...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
Not stopping trains there may make sense to speed up travel time but the advantage in minutes is largely lost in convenience for many many travellers.
No, Eddard, you're basically saying without saying it that the traffic between Rome and Milan is not sufficient to sustain a "full" solution. Let me explain: the grande lignes network in France is largely monocentric, but it's very much suppelented by secondary lines beaming out from the main provincial centres. Lille and Lyon are important hubs in their own right. Which is why they are serviced by frequent TGVs running point-to-point between them and Paris. Every hour or so (??) there's a train running non-stop in each direction and this train allows people to catch their various connections. It doesn't even OCCUR to the French that the train to Marseille should stop in Lyon. What for?

That said, you can do this only if you have enough passengers at the end-points of such a trajectory. In practice it means doubling the number of train services with one service (per hour or whatever) going non-stop and the other stopping underways. Technically it could easily be done between Milan and Rome as well (and would be much more efficient if the train had the option of not slowing down in Bologna, Florence and next to Modena). The 100,000 dollars question is... are there enough passengers travelling straight between Milan and Rome to sustain such a strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
I hope it's clear: look at the map and you'll see what I mean and remember: Italy is a - like Germany - polycentric country and not a monocentric one like France or England
Methinks Spain would have been a better example of a monocentric network than England. Frankly I have much more time for your argument in the case of Germany which is bascially one big quadratic spaghetti bowl of railway lines. In Italy, on the other hand, if you connect the country East/West (Turin-Milan-Veronice-Trieste) and North/South (Milan-Bologna-Florence-Rome-Napoli) then you have most of the large urban centres neatly streaming down two lines. The question is then...

...whether you optimise these lines from a national perspective, or saddle them with a number of compromises in the regional and local interest. The French approach is the first of these, the Italian one as far as I can see rather the second. But this, dear Eddard, has to do with political differences between a centralised and a federal nation rather than geographic discrepancies.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 04:59 PM   #338
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Florence is not a superimportant transport hub (that's why some trains skip it already) beacuse no other major line converge on it but the Bologna-Firenze-Roma-Napoli line.

Bologna is a different beast: if you have to go from Rome to Verona you do not take the AV to Milan and the railway to Verona, there is a direct rail to Verona from Bologna which has been upgraded this year to the 200km/h. The same more or less for Rimini, Venezia, Trieste, Bolzano and so on. On Bologna 4 important lines (and many minor) converge:

1) Torino-Milano-Bologna
2) (Munich)-Verona-Bologna
3) Udine or Trieste-Venezia-Bologna
4) Pescara-Ancona-Rimini-Bologna

All these line cross in Bologna in a sort of radius, the same way as Paris for france. So Bologna is a sort of "rail hub" much alike Charles De Gaulle, if you like the analogy.

To come to your answer, surely there is demand of nonstop trains between Rome and Milan to skip Bologna but in order to do so you have to:

1) build a 20 km long tunnel or a much longer surface railroad around the city: the advantage of not stopping will be either lost in money (tunnel) or long detour around the city (likely for radius reasons not at 300km/h but much less...like for Modena).
2) Why so? beacuse trains have to either turn 270 degrees around Bologna or pass underneath to connect Milano to Firenze. look at the map and you will see why it is so.
3) you loose all the advantage of using Bologna as a hub for the majority of travellers.

The decision has been to build a 10km long tunnel under Bologna with a dedicated AV station of 4 tracks. There the lines from and to Milano-Torino, Venezia-Trieste, Verona-Bolzano-Munich, Napoli-Rome-Florence will meet...only AV trains will use it.
Underground connections between all these lines are U/C, making sure a AV train from Firenze goes underground all the way to Bologna AV and then underground to the existing line for Milano, Verona or Venice. About 100km underground with few interruptions.

Moreover the station being UNDER the existing one the AV passenger will be able to use the surface station to go to any other local-intercity destination. North Italy is a country of medium sized cities some of which lie very near Bologna and are connected to it with a dense network of traditional lines (Ravenna, Modena, Rimini, Forlì, Ferrara, Mantova and so on...)

I think this solution is the best given the specific characteristich of Italy.

Last edited by Eddard Stark; January 26th, 2009 at 05:06 PM.
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Old January 26th, 2009, 05:17 PM   #339
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Finally, nothing forbids in the future to build a (likely) underground bypass under Bologna or Florence. Given the (in my opinion excellent) characteristichs of the above project this is something which is less relevant than building a transportation hub for the whole country under the existing main transportation hub of the country

I think it's much more in the national interest than the above bypass, which are just "locally" important for the traffic between the 2 main cities of Italy, Rome and Milan.

So as far as for the "national" interest the whole project is very much in line with what our country needs
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Old January 26th, 2009, 09:03 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
Finally, nothing forbids in the future to build a (likely) underground bypass under Bologna or Florence. Given the (in my opinion excellent) characteristics of the above project this is something which is less relevant than building a transportation hub for the whole country under the existing main transportation hub of the country.
As I read the evidence a future bypass under Florence is far the most likely. That's where they've made an OK-for-now solution. BO looks more serious. As for the "excellent" characteristics, well... I guess we are all children of our environment, the papers we read, the news broadcastings we watch. A few weeks ago there was a big article in Le Figaro complaining about the scandalous situation we're in, where the only 580 km between Paris and Bordeaux take a full 3 hours by train. This travel time, so the newspaper, should be cut dramatically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
I think it's much more in the national interest than the above bypass, which are just "locally" important for the traffic between the 2 main cities of Italy, Rome and Milan.

So as far as for the "national" interest the whole project is very much in line with what our country needs
And I think that the national interest almost always involves giving an absolute priority to the nation's capital over the provinces. My childhood in tiny Denmark taught me this; my adulthood in centralist France confirmed this. Perhaps that's why I really don't feel well in federalist countries?
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