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Old January 26th, 2009, 09:21 PM   #341
joseph1951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Finally, nothing forbids in the future to build a (likely) underground bypass under Bologna or Florence. Given the (in my opinion excellent) characteristichs of the above project this is something which is less relevant than building a transportation hub for the whole country under the existing main transportation hub of the country

I think it's much more in the national interest than the above bypass, which are just "locally" important for the traffic between the 2 main cities of Italy, Rome and Milan.

So as far as for the "national" interest the whole project is very much in line with what our country needs
Dear Eddard,
There is no need to concentrate all the traffic north -south via Bologna.
It was Bologna (political people) which wanted this.

For instance the Adriatic Line (Lecce-Foggia Bari -Rimini -Bologna) has a well known missing link.

The missing link is the Venice-Mestre -Padua- Ravenna -Rimini- which continues southward.
In the past, there was a project called the Romea ferroviaria which among other improvements proposed also suggested the Rail "Romea" link from Mestre (with spurs at Mestre and Padua to Rimini) and a continuation to Orte, where the line would have been linked to the DD section: Orte-Rome.

If I am not mistaken there is already a dual carriageway/ motorway between Padua -Cesena -Orte, and also a "superstrada" - a sort of second rate motorway - Ferrara-Codigoro.

The line would have passed between Mestre- Adria-Codigoro and, after Codigoro with a spur to Bologna, and the other side of the bifurcation the line would have continued passing near Ravenna (with a link to Ravenna historical rail line) and continued southward to Rimini , then from Rimini either to Arezzo or Orte (interconnections with the DD -Florence Rome).

When it comes to build motorways there is no problem. Even the eco-friendly people like motorways. But, when it comes to build new railways...well, it is a different matter.

The Adriatic Line Bologna- Bari -Lecce is 799 Km long (plus its branching to Taranto).

This line is almost completely doubled, and on the several upgraded sections allows speed up to 200km/h, which cannot be implemented because of lack of appropriate signalling system.

In order to go from Bari-Rimini to either Milan, o Turin or to Venice, all trains have to call at Bologna Central, which is absurd.

The Adriatic Rail Line is a main rail artery linking the far south to the corridor 5, Lisbon -Kiev.

The missing link could be roughly Y shaped.
From Rimini the line will have a bifurcation towards Lavino (20km north of Bologna Central), and with the other branch heading towards Padua and Mestre.

Obviously, the new HC line (with a top speed of about 250km/h) will have connections with the historical lines Rimini-Bologna, Ravenna- Padua.
Therefore it would be possible to have direct services with Padua-Mestre -Venice Trieste bypassing BO. Central.

The new line will be about 60 km/shorter than the detour via Bologna Central) also allowing faster services
to Milan ,

(Rimini HC line to Lavino, and then Lavino Milan HS/HC Line bypassing Bologna) and
to: Turin
(HC line to Lavino then HS/HC Lavino-Piacenza, then the train will be routed on the historical line Piacenza- Alessandria-Turin, with active tilting mechanism .

Similarly it would be possible a Lecce - (Bari) - Rimini - Genova via, Lavino HC line to Piacenza and then Voghera –Genova, the latter section in tilting mode.

On the Adriatic Line there are many towns which are important ports as well as holiday resorts (Bari- Brindisi, Taranto, Lecce, Pescara - Ancona - Rimini-Ravenna ----> to Mestre -Venice Trieste on one side, and Tyrrhenian Side to Genova and Savona.
Despite the upgrading of the Lecce (Taranto) Bari- Bologna which could allow sustained speed at 200km/h , the present travelling time and frequency of the rail service is actually worse now than the previous decade.

In the last few years there has been a considerable worsening of the services on the Adriatic Line to Venice, Milan , Turin or Genoa or Genova corridors.

The Italian Railways have suppressed all HSTs, and all ICs fast services conncting the t "Adriatica" line to the northern regions . The few services which are still operational have biblical journey times.

For instance for the Milan -Ancona -roughly 423 km long, it takes over 4h , unless one takes the Frecciarossas from Milan to Bologna, change at Bologna for Ancona, at a considerable increase in cost, and then the journey is still too slow (3h 21' - for the fastest frecciarossa/ red-arrow ), and far too expensive, at least for my taste.


http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/Pri...on=0&economy=0


There is no need to build a Bologna bypassing line in tunnel. The bypassing HS lines can be built next to the motorway ring roads, encircling Bologna.


Nowadays there is a trend in Italy which consists mainly in building HSLs all in underground, with underground HS Station, just above the Historical stations.

The saga continues on the section Padua-Vicenza-Verona (about 60km long, with Vicenza in the middle).

Padua wants the underground crossing of the historical section. The Hs line should continue towards Vicenza (30 km from Padua) mostly underground to protect the sugar beetroot fields from acoustic Pollution, the underground HS station at Vicenza, the continuation in underground to Verona and crossing of Verona by building an underground station under the historical Verona Station.
The new Padua -Verona via Vicenza, all in underground will be extremely costly and would not offer any improvement in journey time compared to the historical line, which has a maximum speed of 180Km/h, upgradeable to 200km/h.

The logical solution is the FS* solution prepared 20 years ago: From Mestre stopping or crossing in Padua on the surface, from Mestre a southward bypassing line, avoiding Padua , which continues South of Padua in an almost straight line towards Verona and bypassing Verona Southward. This HSL will be about 40 km long and will have interconnections at Padua, and at Verona.


The 60+ km long Padua-Vicenza Verona totally in tunnel, in my opinion will have some degree of justification for a maglev line running on partially vacuumed tunnels.
(Please refer to the Swisssmetro and Vacutrains projects).

FS* = Ferrovie dello Stato = Italian State Railways

As far as a "Hub for the Whole Country............."
waht a lot of baloney.


Kind regards,
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Old January 26th, 2009, 11:58 PM   #342
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Joseph, when you will show me where any forumer wrote - with malicious caprice, as you said - that the travel time between Rome and Milan will be 2 hours I will answer you. Since than I assume you are still giving on this forum false impressions on italian TAV

As for your HSR link around Bologna...easy to build, very easy. Have you ever passed there on a car? I don't think you know what you write about.
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Old January 27th, 2009, 12:06 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
As I read the evidence a future bypass under Florence is far the most likely. That's where they've made an OK-for-now solution. BO looks more serious. As for the "excellent" characteristics, well... I guess we are all children of our environment, the papers we read, the news broadcastings we watch. A few weeks ago there was a big article in Le Figaro complaining about the scandalous situation we're in, where the only 580 km between Paris and Bordeaux take a full 3 hours by train. This travel time, so the newspaper, should be cut dramatically.

And I think that the national interest almost always involves giving an absolute priority to the nation's capital over the provinces. My childhood in tiny Denmark taught me this; my adulthood in centralist France confirmed this. Perhaps that's why I really don't feel well in federalist countries?
580 km is similar to Rome-Milan, which will be 3 hours too, at worst...likely less. And with all our speed limitations. What lies between Paris and Bordeaux? in between Rome and Milan there are some of wealthiest and most populous regions of Italy (Emilia Romagna and Toscana) with Bologna being the main rail hub of Italy.

About capitals...you cannot compare the 2 countries you mentioned with Italy.

France is Paris, and the other way around: 25% of French live there, the others have to get there as fast as they can. Denmark: how many danes live in Copenaghen? 40%?

Italy: Rome is the political capital, but only the third metropolitan area of the country in population and second in economy. Milan is far more important in business, Turin is not far away from Rome and for some things above and Naples is poor but huge. On top there are hundreds small and medium sized cities which matter a lot, like in the Veneto region.

All these centers of power and business connect to each other: in France Lion connects to Paris, Bardeaux to Paris, Lille to Paris. In Italy Turin to Milan, Turin to Rome, Naples to Milan, Naples to Rome. Rome to Veneto, Bologna and Florence with everybody. There is not a firm subjugation of the "provinces" as you call them in a very french way. For many ways, the italian north feels much above Rome (right or wrong...probably wrong)
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Old January 27th, 2009, 06:20 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
580 km is similar to Rome-Milan, which will be 3 hours too, at worst...likely less. And with all our speed limitations. What lies between Paris and Bordeaux?
Tours and Poitiers, only - though please note that this is due to a conscious decision about not serving traditionally more important towns in Western France such as Orleans. More importantly, there is NO HS line to Bordeaux. The "scandalous" three hours are obtained on a track that is 2/3 traditional and only HS between Tours and Paris.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
France is Paris, and the other way around: 25% of French live there, the others have to get there as fast as they can. Denmark: how many danes live in Copenaghen? 40%?
Actually it's just under 20% in France and about 25% in Denmark. Hence, France is not very concentrated, compared for instance with Britain and Australia (close to a third of the population in the main city) or some Asian countries. The springing point, however, is that the French economy is very concentrated, with more than a third in Paris - and more than half of what we could call the "internationally competitive economy" there. (I.e. much of the economic activity in provinces are for local consumption.) Therefore, about two thirds of all longer travels within the country are either from Paris or to Paris.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
In Italy Turin to Milan, Turin to Rome, Naples to Milan, Naples to Rome. Rome to Veneto, Bologna and Florence with everybody. There is not a firm subjugation of the "provinces" as you call them in a very french way. For many ways, the italian north feels much above Rome (right or wrong...probably wrong)
Yeah well... viva Padania - though I should not say this to a man from Abruzzi. But you say it yourself in your Metternich quotation: Italy is a geographic expression.
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Old January 27th, 2009, 01:50 PM   #345
joseph1951
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Joseph, when you will show me where any forumer wrote - with malicious caprice, as you said - that the travel time between Rome and Milan will be 2 hours I will answer you. Since than I assume you are still giving on this forum false impressions on italian TAV

As for your HSR link around Bologna...easy to build, very easy. Have you ever passed there on a car? I don't think you know what you write about.

here some examples:


My post page 2

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=444909&page=2

Mi-Central with a poster Milano Bologna “ Solo 1 ora” Milan Bologna JUST 1 HOUR

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=444909&page=3

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=444909&page=4

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=444909&page=6


Genius Loci + Federicoft
Federicoft
Milan-Rome 2h 30 minute
Genius Loci
Frecciarossa 300-350km/h
Freccia Bianca 250-285
Fracciaargento200-230 km/h
Etc


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=444909&page=9


page 10 #
Genius Loci accusation that I make disinformation because I was skeeptical of the fesiblity of th Messina Bridge being completed by 2016, as claimed by some Italian local groups.
dread contesting the official toachograph of the ETR500 + carriages on the Turin Milan HSL section.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...444909&page=10



page 4


Here is the speed diagram of the reduced formation of the ETR500 (2 locos + 8 carriages) used on the Turin-Milan High Speed line.


http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5...ovarasvtv1.png


Page 11

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...444909&page=11


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...2#post29861832

Federcoft

The Italian HSL canendure by project 350km/h.
NO the max project speeds is 300km/h fo some sections only

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...444909&page=12

Federicoft quoting travelling time o 2h 15 min (by upgrading the Rome Florence?/) on the Milan Rome route?

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...444909&page=13


dreaad asking Ferrovie on Line if the ETR testing for 330 km/h for homologation at 300Km/h were consist of 8 or 12 carriages

And dread asking to the FOL forums to help him by intervening of the international skyscraper forum to discredit me..

Reply of pendolasco to dreaad

“Gosh, Joseph. For sure you live in Italy and perhaps you work for FS… difficult to maintain that you are wrong (“difficile darti torto”)
http://www.ferrovie.it/forum/viewtop...sd=a&start=420

Federicoft
Saying that “it is not uncommon seeing today journey time of 3 h 15’ between Milan and Rome.

Fdercoft scoffing the French “because it took them 30 years to reach Marseilles”
Napo
Boasting the top speeds of the small Italian HSTs fleet

JFMO writing about runnings of 2h 30 minutes on the Milan-Rome in the near future


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...444909&page=14




Your post of 27-01-09 on your cosy Italian section

In which you misquote me ,by saying that I more or less hate the fact that, once the works are completed with the underground passing etc it will take 2h 30 minute from Milan-Rome The journey from Milan to Rome will take only 2h 30 minutes…
Firstly from Milan-Rome I MEAN Milan Central Station to Rome Termini.
Not Milan Rogoredo Station To Rome Tiburtina
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Old January 27th, 2009, 06:13 PM   #346
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1) Trains run in 1 hour and 5 minutes between Milan and Bologna now, with constructions of the Bologna bypass not completed

2) Trains run in 3 hours and 30 minutes between Milan and Rome (official time) and they are often early up to 15 minutes NOW (as Federicoft rightly said)

http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/Tim...=tcom&x=24&y=6

This allows surely 30 minutes less for the BO-FI av which will open next year. So it's 3 hours no doubt. The doubt is if they will be able to go to 2:30 minutes (Centrale-Termini). Considering the 2 bypass under construction underground Bologna and Firenze and the upgrade on the old FI-RO it may be possible. You don't know for sure if it is impossible, we don't know for sure if it is possible. You just have to admit it. Anyway SURELY it will be less than 3 hours for simple math reasons (210minutes now - 30 minutes FI-BO - bypass savings <180 minutes)

3) I do not see anywhere any malicious affirmation saying that trains will run in 2 hours between Rome and Milan as you said. some posts above. I think you are just wrong and you shall ask pardon to the italian forumers.

Maybe it's not the italian forumers giving out false info, it's you who accuses people of behaving in a malicious way when they are just thinking on facts, information coming from TI and other speculations.

I think you are just mad that this system is working, capturing clients and cutting progressively the travelling time between the main italian cities.

I have a solution: just wait till December when the Torino-Milano, Firenze-Bologna and Roma-Napoli will be completed and let's see. I am optymist
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Old January 27th, 2009, 06:22 PM   #347
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Don't worry, sooner or later you'll get tired too of saying the same things over and over again, as pretty much everybody else who tried to debate with him did.
Just ignore him, or laugh at him, depends on your personality.
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Old January 28th, 2009, 02:01 AM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post

Don't worry, sooner or later you'll get tired too of saying the same things over and over again, as pretty much everybody else who tried to debate with him did.
Just ignore him, or laugh at him, depends on your personality.
Frankly I cannot see the point to be so unnecessarily rude. It can only be detrimental both to the discussion and to you.

Both the project and the official FS papers, including TI (or FS) documentation stating quite clearly that, at the full opening of the lines, at the full completion of the works, and that includes the underpasses, of Bologna, and Florence etc, the travelling time of the HST non stop, between Milan Central and Rome Termini, will be 3 hours.

It is also officially reported that from Milan Central - to Naples Central, the journey time will be 4h 10'.

They might well decide to have a few fast trains, starting at Milan-Rogoredo and terminating at Rome Tiburtina, with slightly reduced travelling times. .

Both stations are on the outskirt of the two cities......

I am merely sticking to the official data.

As far as the future is concerned, they might well decide to increase the maximum speed, or they might not.

This remains a matter of mere speculation and wishful thinking.

As far as I am concern, I have no precognitive abilities, and I do not know of anybody who can predict, with any accuracy, neither an hypothetical event which might occur in the medium term or long term future.
Yours and Eddard's are merely conjectures substantiated, neither by any official data nor by the previous FS records. The only records that FS (or TI if you prefer ) is of unreliability both planning , in management and in advertising..

Suffice to say that the Milan Bologna AV was first planned ,and then advertised, for a journey time of 1 hour flat, and the poster on the Milan Central station stated quite clearly this travelling time for several years up to the day of commencement of the AV services between Milan and Bologna.

This can be seen in this thread by an earlier picture posted before the fatidic date of commencement of the revolutionary AV fast between Milan and Bologna...

Page 3 of this thread, picture posted by Federicoft 31 Dec , 2007 (?)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=444909&page=3

In the not too distant future, let's say by 2040, they might even have built a new HS line Milan-Rome-Naples avoiding both Bologna and Florence, and capable of speed in excess of 400km/h over the 95 per cent of the line.


For this type of speculation, I would like to suggest a new thread " The role of clairvoyancy in fictional Italian TAV"

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/annua...-analysis.html

It's late .. I wish you the sweetes of dreams.

Kind regards
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Old January 28th, 2009, 02:05 AM   #349
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Old January 28th, 2009, 10:24 AM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
1) Trains run in 1 hour and 5 minutes between Milan and Bologna now, with constructions of the Bologna bypass not completed

2) Trains run in 3 hours and 30 minutes between Milan and Rome (official time) and they are often early up to 15 minutes NOW (as Federicoft rightly said)

http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/Tim...=tcom&x=24&y=6

This allows surely 30 minutes less for the BO-FI av which will open next year. So it's 3 hours no doubt. The doubt is if they will be able to go to 2:30 minutes (Centrale-Termini). Considering the 2 bypass under construction underground Bologna and Firenze and the upgrade on the old FI-RO it may be possible. You don't know for sure if it is impossible, we don't know for sure if it is possible. You just have to admit it. Anyway SURELY it will be less than 3 hours for simple math reasons (210minutes now - 30 minutes FI-BO - bypass savings <180 minutes)

3) I do not see anywhere any malicious affirmation saying that trains will run in 2 hours between Rome and Milan as you said. some posts above. I think you are just wrong and you shall ask pardon to the italian forumers.

Maybe it's not the italian forumers giving out false info, it's you who accuses people of behaving in a malicious way when they are just thinking on facts, information coming from TI and other speculations.

I think you are just mad that this system is working, capturing clients and cutting progressively the travelling time between the main italian cities.

I have a solution: just wait till December when the Torino-Milano, Firenze-Bologna and Roma-Napoli will be completed and let's see. I am optymist

Turin Porta Nuova -Naples-Central non stop via Milan Rho-Milan Lambrate and Milan Rogoredo bypass, then -Bologna-Florence-Rome 5h , 5h 10 minutes , 5h 20 minutes, at the very best, for 924,5 km
Now Milan -Naples with only one stop to Rome Termini 4h 50 minutes + 1h 10 minutes Rome Naples...
there your are.


In 2009, only the latest sections of Turin-Milan and Bologne Florence HSL will be opened
Then Turin-Milan Central Stn. will be 50 minutes.
For those trains bypassing Milan via the Rho-Certosa, Lambrate-Rogoredo ceinture you will have to add another 15 minutes to reach Melegnano, where the HSL Mi-Bo begins.
The 1h 10 minutes from Turin to Melegnano - 1h 15 minutes = 75 minutes
1 hour Melegano Bologna Bypass 1h = 60 "
Bologa to Florence -Rovezzano 30 minutes = 30
Rovezzano to Rome junction to join
The Rome Naples AV 1 20 " = 80
Rome Naples Junction AV to Naples Central 1 10 = 70

total

5h 15 315 minutes
Pushing it a bit, and not making allowances for late running you reduce the journey time of about 15-20 minutes , but at the risk of frequent late runnings
Now the lenght is:

Turin -Milan 153 km
Milan-Bologna 219 kms
Bolgna Flore new hsl 78,5 kms
Florence -Rome(termini) 252 Kms*
Rome HSL to Naples 222 Kms**

Total 924,5 kms
924,5 kms : 5h = 184,5 km/h average speed, which given the features of the lines and of the trains used (ETR500) it is excellent.


To reduce journey times you will have to increse the power output of the ET500 in consists of 12 carriages by at least 50%. And this extra power could not be of advantage on the DD high speed strech of 231 kms. However, this will be extremely useful during acceleration on the DD, and especially, on the newly built HS lines.


The other solution is to REDUCE the number of carriages to 5 1st class passenger carriages and 1 restaurant car.
So the superfast (or superfass") train wil consists of 2 locomotives + 6 carriages.

2 loco x 68 tons + 6 carriags weighing 42 tons each (empty) = 388 t / 8,800 kW power = Power/weight ratio of 22,6 kw/t. on the HSL and on the DD 22,6 kW/T up to 200kph and the on the same DD 11,8kW/with only one locomotive active above the 200kph mark.

This solution will allow a substantial reduction in journey time on the DD (Florence-Rome) , far better acceleration, and a possible speed increase to 320 km/h, as peak speed on some sections of the new HSL.

The new HSL lines have a type of catenary not designed for sustained, frequent commercial 350km/h runnings. And this aspect ough to to be taken into due account.

For this specific purpose, a more powerful , lighter trains, with far better acceleration with can allor to rapidly reach the line present max spedd of 300kph, are needed.

For a frequent commercial max speed of 350km/h, a change of catenary is also needed.

Furthermore, such a superfast train might require about 2 paths, compared to the slower train max speed which have some peaks at 300kph, and TI might have to pay a double toll.

It depends on the toll system agreed locally.


Therefore the cost/effectiveness of such modest increase in overall performance will have to be carefully estimated.

I might prove to be too expensive to carry just 220-230 passengers at almost double the total running cost (dobule toll cost?), and of a considerable increase of energy consumption, excessive wear and tear of both rail system and train.

At the moment, I believe REFI fot HST traiin running on HS lines charges TI about 13 Euro per km/train/path

Considering about 900k of HSLs (on Turin-Naples) @ 13 Euros/km it makes it 11,700 Euros, which at 2 paths will be 23,400 Euros


Euros 23,400 : 230 passengers = 117 Euros per passenger/ path toll. And this will assume 100% full train seating/occupancy, as the Superfast ETR500 with have only 5 carriages transporting passengers, as above-mentioned.

On the other hand, an ETR500 consist of 12 carriages with a top peak speeds of 300kph, will carry, let's say, 600 passengers.

So on the Turin-Naples
Cost of 1 path: 11,700 Euros
Euros 11,700 divided by 600 passengers (100% seat occupation) = 19.5 Euros/passenger of toll charges.

Considering that, on a 12 carriages consists there will be 3-4 first class carriages or a mix of premium /first class carriages, with passengers paying between 130-200 euros each , the revenue of passengers travellning on first/premiun classes will be between 16, 900 and 26,000 Euros.

For the remaining 2nd class there will be 470 passengers.

Let's say 80 per cent of second class passengers will pay the full fare of second class ticket, at 90 Euros each.


= 376 passengers at Euros 90/per passenger = 33, 844 Euros

82 passenger "on special offer fare " at 33 Euros + Euros 2,706 Euros


Thus, cost of train path (toll) = Euro 11,700

Revenue formFirst/premium class Euros 26,000
" from 376 passengers
@ 90 Euros each Euros 33, 844
from 82 passenger @ Euros 33 each Euros 2,706

Total revenue Euros 62,550

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not that feasible, unless the low cost flights between Turin and Naples disappear overnight.

And, unless there is either a drastic reducion in train fares, or a wide range of special offers it would be fairly difficult to fill in such a train from starting to end points.

No businessman wil pay 130 - 200 Euro from Turin to Naples, one way, for a journey of 5 hours.

Unless he has no other choice. It would also appear to be fairly dificult to fill in the 80% seats of the second class, charging one way tickets at 90 Euros.

The ETR500 has a weight/seat capacity ratio of about 1/passenger /1 ton


The TGV Duplex is about 1 passenger/0.7 ton. And it can travel in double formation, thus carrying over a 1,000 passengers at 30% less of the passenger/weight ratio and at a 40% less cost for for path/passenger ratio.


The new TGV Duplex mini-jumbo will consist of 2 locomotives and 9 trailers, thus carrying 54 passengers more per set, or 108 for a double TGV set composition, compared to the older TGVs Double deckers.

Sorry for the typos

Have a nice day!
.......................................

PS For the time being Turin-Naples via Milan B-Florence Rome takes over 8 hours with Frccairossa AV fast "sic!"

http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/Tim...ation=0&npag=1
.............

* (Rome Termin will be bypassed , the train will pass through Rome Tiburtina and continue towards napples on the junctionto the HS RM-Naples aftr having bypapassed Rm- Termini

Last edited by joseph1951; January 28th, 2009 at 07:15 PM.
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Old January 28th, 2009, 08:32 PM   #351
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Turin-Milan HSL 153 km. ??!!??
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Old January 29th, 2009, 03:49 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by ETR401 View Post
Turin-Milan HSL 153 km. ??!!??
Yes about 153 kms. The HSL section is about 125 km long, and the end points of the HS line are on the historical line.

I posted several links illustrating the drawings of the planned and constructed Italian HS Lines.

I posted the links both in this forum and in the Italian section, on the Italian TAV thread.

Here is the "promised link" . The planned HSL is on page 2 of the pdf documents.

Obviously, the red line is the HSL.

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...LAN%20line.pdf


From the map, one can see that, near Rho, the HS line passes quite close to the orbital section of the motorway bypassing Milan, and heading towards Bergamo - Brescia -Verona ...and Venice...

It would have cost very little to build a couple of fast rail lines on the northen and southern sides of Milan to avoid the (in)famous bottleneck called Milan-Junction.......
Well...I'll guess we will survive.....

Have a nice evening!
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Old January 29th, 2009, 04:07 AM   #353
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more pics, please
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Old January 29th, 2009, 07:17 AM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shezan View Post
more pics, please
About Italian HSLs or about me???
Cheers!!!!!!!
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Old February 4th, 2009, 10:08 PM   #355
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For everyone information the "Frecciarossa" achieved the WORLD RECORD of speed in tunnels: 362 km/h on the new Bologna-Firenze line that will be opened in December

The line is almost completely underground as it has to pass the appenninnes.

This is also the italian speed record

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_f...4f02aabc.shtml
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Old February 4th, 2009, 11:16 PM   #356
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achieved the WORLD RECORD of speed in tunnels
Except for Japan's maglev.
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Old February 5th, 2009, 05:50 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Except for Japan's maglev.
Does it run in tunnels? anyway it's not operative...FI-BO will be soon
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Old February 5th, 2009, 05:58 PM   #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Except for Japan's maglev.
its meaningless to compare maglev records in any way with traditional rail records


oh, and congrats ferrossawhatever
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Old February 5th, 2009, 09:53 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Does it run in tunnels? anyway it's not operative...FI-BO will be soon
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Old February 5th, 2009, 10:13 PM   #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
thank you I didn't know

Anyway a train is a train, the maglev is something else. We still have I think the world record for passenger train
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