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Old February 10th, 2009, 10:47 AM   #361
joseph1951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
For everyone information the "Frecciarossa" achieved the WORLD RECORD of speed in tunnels: 362 km/h on the new Bologna-Firenze line that will be opened in December

The line is almost completely underground as it has to pass the appenninnes.

This is also the italian speed record

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_f...4f02aabc.shtml
Not quite so. There was a mistake. The ETR500 frecciasomething High Speed Fast (sic!) did not achieve the Worrld Record Speed in Tunnels of 362km/h, and this because,


Firstly:

IT seems that the ETR500 record speed of 362km/h was achieved between 2 tunnels at km [B]26.149 BETWEEN the Crocioni Nord and Crocioni Sud tunnels, and

Secondly:
The higher speed of 402 km/h between two(?) tunnels was achieved quite a while ago by an ICE2.

The FOL editor has apologised to his readers for the piece of news which was not checked for accuracy...Just for a change........

Another Trenitalia stunt?

Here is the link from the magazine quoted. A magazine you seems to know quite well.
Also FOL is written in Italian......


http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/...vp.php?id=2543


You've got an extra few hundred kms/h to go before claiming some world records....

Keep practising.. and please let'us know when the freccia-something with a new a pink-nose livery matched by yellow skirts (designed by Armani or Gucci) to cover its bogies, reaches the 625.8 km/h between tunnels....
Have a nice day!

Last edited by joseph1951; February 10th, 2009 at 10:57 AM.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 11:08 AM   #362
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Joseph less venom and more calm: I just saw the article. I also quoted FOL, assuming they had verified the information. I don't think I wrote "in your face Joseph you idiot look at this speed record", I just quoted the article...and I expect you behave in the same way

Anyway it seems a very good result to achieve 362 km/h in the tunnels between Bologna and Firenze: this line is a engineering marvel of 80 km of almost uniterrupted tunnels between the 2 cities, many doubted the line could achieve more than 250 km/h, I think they received a very clear answer. Also if the ETR500 has such a horrible acceleration how come it reached this speed in just 80 km?

And this speed was achieved with a train which is almost the same that will run there for commercial purposes. By the way, an ETR500 you seem to hate so much
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Old February 10th, 2009, 01:38 PM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Also if the ETR500 has such a horrible acceleration how come it reached this speed in just 80 km?
Eddard, you've lost me. If a train cannot accelerate to a given speed in 80 km then I very much doubt that it can accelerate to this speed at all. I seem to remember that someone told me the ETR500 needs just under 20 km to reach 300 km/h - can anyone confirm or reject this? It's still slow compared with the Velaro which, as I posted elswere, I personally saw accelerate from 200 to 320 km/h in less than a minute.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 04:01 PM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Eddard, you've lost me. If a train cannot accelerate to a given speed in 80 km then I very much doubt that it can accelerate to this speed at all. I seem to remember that someone told me the ETR500 needs just under 20 km to reach 300 km/h - can anyone confirm or reject this? It's still slow compared with the Velaro which, as I posted elswere, I personally saw accelerate from 200 to 320 km/h in less than a minute.
80 km is the whole lenght of the line...and the line is quite extraordinary as it runs almost completely in tunnels (73km on 78km). So the train accelerated at 362 and than decelerated in this short line. Some even doubted that was possible...as they doubted this line was made for more than 250km/h

I cannot help you on the ETR point...I will ask on the italian forum. What is clear is that a (almost) normal ETR500 can reach 362 km/h which is not so bad. This is not a modified version, I think it only lacks a few wagons from the normal 12...
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Old February 10th, 2009, 10:07 PM   #365
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ETR Y1 train who did the italian record has 8 carriages, so the same as a standard TGV composition.

about ETR 500 acceleration with 12 carriages...on the bologna-milan HSL (note the limit at the beginning near modena @ 240 km/h)



but this is clearer (note the full acceleration on the HSL in the opposite direction with respect to the first)



so for the 12 carriages composition it is resonable that a full acceleration to 300 km/h requires 20-25 km, so joseph was wrong when he said
Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
[...]

The ETR500 has a very sluggish acceleration from 160km/h to 300km/h and, from 160 km/h to 300km/h it has to run about 50 km!

[...]
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Last edited by dreaad; February 10th, 2009 at 10:19 PM.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 10:42 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
80 km is the whole lenght of the line...and the line is quite extraordinary as it runs almost completely in tunnels (73km on 78km). So the train accelerated at 362 and than decelerated in this short line. Some even doubted that was possible...as they doubted this line was made for more than 250km/h.
Point taken, Eddard, though as far as I know you need some 5-7 km to "decelerate" to an absolute halt from 300+ km/h. So, if you're not careful you'll find yourself celebrating the fact that the ETRs can accelerate to their top speed in only 75 km....

What interests me a great deal more is the new top speed of those lines. We used to tell each other - I agree there - that it will be "250 to 300 km/h". Now, it appears, 300 km/h has been fixed as the new standard. - Or, I should be even bolder, seeing as new lines are normally tested at Vmax + 10%, they could even do 320 km/h between Florence and Bologna.
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Old February 10th, 2009, 11:39 PM   #367
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320 km/h between florence and bologna is useless, even if almost the entire italian high speed network permits this speed... it's not sure yet if the definitive commercial speed will be 250 or 300 (concerning only this line)
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Old February 11th, 2009, 12:19 AM   #368
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[QUOTE=Eddard Stark;32066690]

1-
Joseph less venom and more calm: I just saw the article. I also quoted FOL, assuming they had verified the information. I don't think I wrote "in your face Joseph you idiot look at this speed record", I just quoted the article...and I expect you behave in the same way

2-
Anyway it seems a very good result to achieve 362 km/h in the tunnels between Bologna and Firenze: this line is a engineering marvel of 80 km of almost uniterrupted tunnels between the 2 cities, many doubted the line could achieve more than 250 km/h, I think they received a very clear answer. Also if the ETR500 has such a horrible acceleration how come it reached this speed in just 80 km?

3-

"And this speed was achieved with a train which is almost the same that will run there for commercial purposes. "

4 -
By the way, an ETR500 you seem to hate so much[/QUOTE]

===========================================

Replies unedited to the points you raised.


First of all let me than for the "you idiot ..etc" ........ which you used in replying to me.
An expression perhaps a bit ambiguous ,..... to say the least, but perhaps somewhat revealing of your character.

=======================================
A)
This is what you have written in your previous post
" Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
For everyone information the "Frecciarossa" achieved the WORLD RECORD of speed in tunnels: 362 km/h on the new Bologna-Firenze line that will be opened in December
The line is almost completely underground as it has to pass the appenninnes.

This is also the italian speed record


http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_f...4f02aabc.shtml "


End of your first quote.

---------------
My replies:

Then
1-
No venom, just facts. The article was known to be flawed. The errata corridge is on the same page on the main article. You coul have not possiby missed it.

2-

To achieve a 362 km/h on a train on a reduced formation on a new line, just built, and with no traffic is nothing new.

The ICE 1 with 2 locos and a few carriages achieved about 47km/h more than the ETR500, in reduced formation, and this well over a decade ago....

Testing a new line max speed with a given train is quite different than the speed achievable in full commercial service.

3-
Again quoting from your post:

" And this speed was achieved with a train which is almost the same that will run there for commercial purposes. "
#

My reply, first draft -unedited

"Reduced formation".

Well I always maintained that:


- The ETR500 in consist of 2 locomotives + 10-12 carriages is to heavy and has a power to ratio of about 13.7/kw/t (on 25kV AC) and of about 6,75kW /t, on 3000 volt DC.

It is an heavy conventional medium-to-high speed train.. It is very similar, albeit inferior, to the ICE1.

As such, in order to make it go faster, or to have greater top speed, and far better acceleration, you wll have either:
i) To add extra motors on the bogies under the passenger carriages

or:

ii) To remove 4-6 carriages from the train in consist of 2 locos and 12 carriages.

Examples:

A)
2 locos + 6 carriages , under 25kV AC will develop 8,800kw, and the train, on such reduced formation, will weight 388 tons (locos 68 tons x2) + (carriages 42 tons each x6)

Then the power to weight ratio will be: (8,800: 388) = 22.6kW/t

B)
On compos of 2 locos + 2 carriages:

Locos 68 x 2 = 136 t
2 carriages 42x2 = 84 t

Total weight = 220 t
Power to weight ratio (8,800 : 220) 40kw/t.


Then,
if the bogies are stable, and are equipped with reinforced dampers (the bogies tend to behave like a snake at very high speed),
and if the catenary is strengthened,
and if the electrical tension is increased.......you might be able to reach speeds of over 500km/h.

Which, anyway, will be of no immediate practical use in commercial service.

The newly built - or "soon" to be completed Italian mixed-traffic HSLs have a top design speed, ("the ceiling speed") of 300km/h.

They do not have a top commercial speed of 300km/h on revenue runnings.

One must make allowance for late running, slack times, etc.

Also even the NTV AGV has a top sped of 300km/h.

Both Trenitalia and NTV will run trains at the same maximum speed.

Here is the timetable of NTV's train due to enter in service in 2011.

NTV timetable for 2011 (with AVG)


http://www.ntvspa.it/ntvupload/utils...locità-NTV.pdf

http://www.ntvspa.it/it/nuovo-traspo...tazioni-tratte

-------------
In my very modest opinion, the ETR500 is a downrated version of the ICE1. Its carriages are about 20 cm narrower than those of the ICE 1, the second class seats are quite antiergonomic, and the combination of a single saloon with narrow carriages, increases the feeling of both tunnel effect and crampiness (or crampyness..).
I believe that its best usage would be for long distance non-stop trains running at medium-hign speed of 250 km/h, with dashes at 280kmph to make up time , in case of late runnings.

For this purposes the second class interiors have to be changed, in carraiges all saloons, others in semi-saloons, other in compartments.

In such a case THE etr500 would be best used in long distance journeys such as:

i) - Milan Central-Rome Termni, in 3hrs at an average speed of about 180-190km/h

ii-) Milan Central - Naples Central in 4h 10m, or 4 hrs flat, at an average speed of just under, or just above 200km/h.

Or
iii -) Turin Central- Naples Central, via Milan Junction, in 5hrs 20 minutes, at an averagae speed of about 170km/h.

In second class, the ETR500 is not as comfortable as the ICE 1, it is also less powerful and carries less passengers than the latter.

It also less poweful than the TGV 2 Niveaux, and it cost more than the TGV, it carries less passenger per ton of train (-40%), also has far lower performance than the latter, etc, etc.

Talgos with vmax of 250km/h, Talgos 350, and in the future Talgos 380, Chinese, French, Japanese (yes Japanese) , Korean HS trains etc, are all far superior, in every respect, to the ETR500 - a project which -according to the late Professor Giovanni Klaus Koening: author of the book "Beyond the Pendolino - had too many fathers.

The combinations of train types, type of lines, transits over junctions which have no HS flyovers, the underground crossings of medium size stations, at excruciating low speeds, are all factors preventing to achieve better average speeds than those officially published.

It would appear that your quarrel is not with me but with those politicians, technicians, engineers, etc, who have planned and built both the train and the infrastructure.

To debate about very conjectural increases of average HST commercial speeds in a nation which does not have a moderrn, capillary and efficient rail network, but has an excess of motorways, compared to its land surface appears to be fairly futile.

In house building, before building the roof you have to lay down the foundation.
It would appear than in the Italian HSL lines are just a few stretches of rails, in a Country which has a third world rail network.
The construction of the HSLs lines wa carried out at the expeses of the historical languishing and feable rail network.

In Italy the concept of intermodal transportation is still in an early embrionic phase......

I wish you a nice evening.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 01:00 AM   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
ETR Y1 train who did the italian record has 8 carriages, so the same as a standard TGV composition.

about ETR 500 acceleration with 12 carriages...on the bologna-milan HSL (note the limit at the beginning near modena @ 240 km/h)



but this is clearer (note the full acceleration on the HSL in the opposite direction with respect to the first)



so for the 12 carriages composition it is resonable that a full acceleration to 300 km/h requires 20-25 km, so joseph was wrong when he said
.....................

====================================================
First draft /unedited

REPLY FROM JOSEPH

Joseph has posted, in several topics, both in this thread and in the Italian section, on the Italian AV thread, the official acceleration curve of the ETR500 on the Turin-Milan route.

On the Turin-Milan the ETR500 is used only with 8 carriages.

The same acceleration curve, which was obtained from the tachometer of the train, is also posted on FOL.

The acceleration curve posted by me reflects the technical specifications of the ETR500.

It is not an acceleraton curve which I have somehow designed, or extrapolated from a device.

I have also posted the official technical specifications and performance of the HS lines/train, and undercrossings.

From those legal and official documents repeatedly posted, it is quite clearly, visibile, specified and understandable that the through crossing at Bologna, Florence, at Termini, and Afragola will not reduce the journey times from end point to end point.

Also I have posted the train timetable from both TI and NTV, for the latter, I posted the timetable for the year 2011


It does not take a great genius to see that, at the completion of the HS line, the journey time between Turin and Milan will be of 1h (for 153 Km) and that, in France on the LGV ESt a stretch of about 179km long is covered in about 36 minutes, from start to stop.
At an average speed of over 270km/h

Controversely, the Rome -Naples HSL is 205 km long.

The official journey time given is 1h 10 minutes, at an average speed of 175.71 km/h.

As per official documentation posted.


This does not give me any problem whatsoever. But it seems to trouble you.
Top speed per se is fairly irrelevant. There are other factors to be taken into consideration.

Your quarrel is not with me. But with the official data.

You might well succeed in convincing the world thatItaly has the best HS trains of the planet Earth, and also that these trains were designed by Pinninfarina,...... and repainted 5 times...etc.

But the arithmetic will remaing the same.

However you are entitled to dream.....if it makes you feel better.

=====================================================

NTV timetable for 2011 (with AVG)


http://www.ntvspa.it/ntvupload/utils...locità-NTV.pdf

http://www.ntvspa.it/it/nuovo-traspo...tazioni-tratte

-----------------------------
One can clearly see that in 2011, the journey time between Venice and Rome will be 4h and 5minutes for 490.5 km (the New Bologna Florence line is shorter than the historical line)

Average speed 120.12 km/h.

Rome -Naples 205 km in 70 mins.
Average speed 175.71 km/h

Naples - Salerno (length 50kms?). The journey time will be reduce from 35 mins to 30 minutes. Average speed: at best 100km/h.
High Speed?

In China they do over 120 kms in 30 minutes.

Bologna -Florence HSL 78.5 km in about 35 minutes.
Average speed 134.57km/h

Calais-Lille : about 101 km from station to station in less than 30 minutes.

Last edited by joseph1951; February 11th, 2009 at 01:20 AM.
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Old February 12th, 2009, 03:21 PM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paxromana View Post
Da Trainzitalia. Nick: E.655.540

[IMG]http://i40.************/2m50268.jpg[/IMG]
...
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Old February 12th, 2009, 03:33 PM   #371
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is that a bridge over nothing?
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Old February 12th, 2009, 04:27 PM   #372
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is that a bridge over nothing?
It is over Po river... from this point of view you can't see it

(in following pic the bridge u/c)

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Old February 12th, 2009, 06:34 PM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
is that a bridge over nothing?
Is the usual bridge built on the River Po depicting the ETR500 red arrow high speed (alta velocita') fast.

It's a beautiful bridge by Calatrava, but it is the same picutre posted over and over again.......
cheers!!!
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Old February 12th, 2009, 06:52 PM   #374
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thx
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Old February 12th, 2009, 07:09 PM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
It's a beautiful bridge by Calatrava
It's not by Calatrava
Quote:
but it is the same picutre posted over and over again.......
cheers!!!
I'm sorry: I thought sometimes nice pics can be way more interesting than dozens polemical posts telling the same thing, over and over again

Doubble
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Old February 13th, 2009, 10:20 AM   #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
It's not by Calatrava
I'm sorry: I thought sometimes nice pics can be way more interesting than dozens polemical posts telling the same thing, over and over again

Doubble
quote
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:10 PM   #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
For everyone information the "Frecciarossa" achieved the WORLD RECORD of speed in tunnels: 362 km/h on the new Bologna-Firenze line that will be opened in December

The line is almost completely underground as it has to pass the appenninnes.

This is also the italian speed record

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_f...4f02aabc.shtml
Well it is an Italian record for sure but that speed has been exceeded on numerous ocasions during the test runs on the Madrid-Barcelona HSR line. There are several tunnels on the sections that are designed for 350km/h and during the testings with Vmax + 10% they ran through the tunnels at 385km/h.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 04:25 PM   #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Well it is an Italian record for sure but that speed has been exceeded on numerous ocasions during the test runs on the Madrid-Barcelona HSR line. There are several tunnels on the sections that are designed for 350km/h and during the testings with Vmax + 10% they ran through the tunnels at 385km/h.
I'm sure FS referred to a railway line completely in tunnel. Anyway a few post before there was an update: actually the world record is of ICE that reached above 400 km/h in a tunnel section

Let me add thought that the Bologna-Firenze IS basically a tunnel (with a few windows) 80 km long...so it's quite different froma line with "some" tunnels
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Old February 22nd, 2009, 05:58 PM   #379
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It's an HSR in Gardaland.

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Old February 23rd, 2009, 03:38 AM   #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
I'm sure FS referred to a railway line completely in tunnel.

1-Anyway a few post before there was an update: actually the world record is of ICE that reached above 400 km/h in a tunnel section
Let me add thought that the Bologna-Firenze IS basically a tunnel (with a few windows) 80 km long...so it's quite different froma line with "some" tunnels

As I posted in the appropriate forum? It was the IC2 .


Il Corriere della Sera e FOL dovrebbero essere un tantino piu' precisi nel diffondere le notizie. A livello internazionale la stampa italiana non e' il massimo.....E gli stunt pubblicitari di MM ormai lasciano il tempo che trovano.
Per anni sul Totem della C.le si leggeva: Mi-BO = in 1 ora. ..
Poi il 14-12 -2008 - MI-O AV = 65 minuti??
Ma che bravi!!!!!
Consiglirei a MM di andarsi a guardare i caroselli TV degli anni 70.
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