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Old February 28th, 2009, 04:51 AM   #381
joseph1951
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
I told you...between Milan and Bologna in a few days average speed will be more than 200 km/h

If you refer to the other 2 new AV lines open (Torino-Milano and Roma-Napoli) in reality they are not completed: the Torino Milano is only 2/3 completed.

1-

it takes only 25 minutes to go from Turin to Novara where the new line stops (so 216km/h average speed).

2-

The Roma-Napoli is almost completed, but 20 km are not. The "official" time to make the 220km is 1h and 27minutes but in reality more often than not it takes just 1h and 10-15 minutes. When the last 20 km will be finished it will be 1 hour, so more than 200 km/h average speed.

To summarize: the 2 existing line are not complited, the first new AV line in Italy will be opened in a matter of days (if we exclude the slower Firenze-Roma finished in 1992)
1- And when the last 30-35 km of the Turin Milan will be completed (fromNovara to Rho) and the full line will be operational it will take 50 minutes or the entire journey from end point to end point.

2- Rome Naples HSL
Total length 205km. Journey time 1h 10 minutes, for the superfast trains when the entire line is fully operational.

At the moment there are 185 kms out of 205 kms of line which are allegedly cleared for 300 km/h And this produce a total journey time of 1h and 27 minutes ???

At 300km/h it takes 37 minutes to cover 185 kms.
So why it takes 50 minutes (fifty minutes) cover the last 20km to Naples ?
20 kms in 50 minutes = 24 km/h


Please note that, in 1829, the "Rocket" was doing much better
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephenson's_Rocket



For a line of 205 km long cleared for 300-km/h (and 350 km/h - according to some of you ) the journey time should be respectively of 45- 40 minutes.

Note that the on the 303 km of the LGV est the journey time between Paris Gare de l'Est to Metz is about 1h 10 min - 1h 15 minutes.
On this line the top commercial speed is only 320km/h ...and it can be raised of 10-15% in case of late runnings......

========================================================
In the late 70 and 80 the journey times on the historical line Roma -Naples via Formia were 1h 30 minutes . In the 70s the top speed on this line was limited to 160km/h on some stretches.

In the 80s and 90s on some sections of the Rome -Naples vai Formia the speed was raised to 180km/h.

Why not to use the Old Rome -Naples via Formia (built in the early 30s) as a "New HSL", and the New HS/HC line as a SLOW freight line?

FS has some serious explaining to do. Based on simple arithmetic.
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Old February 28th, 2009, 04:21 PM   #382
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Now is important Milano TAV station in Repubblica Square. Project are alredy. The station will be a transit station
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Old February 28th, 2009, 07:56 PM   #383
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Now is important Milano TAV station in Repubblica Square. Project are alredy. The station will be a transit station
I just can believe this man re-registered to troll around even in international forum in English
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Old March 1st, 2009, 02:26 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
For a line of 205 km long cleared for 300-km/h (and 350 km/h - according to some of you ) the journey time should be respectively of 45- 40 minutes.

Note that the on the 303 km of the LGV est the journey time between Paris Gare de l'Est to Metz is about 1h 10 min - 1h 15 minutes.
On this line the top commercial speed is only 320km/h ...and it can be raised of 10-15% in case of late runnings......
Mmmmwell, Joseph, methinks you're mixing apples and oranges. As we both know, you never realise an effective speed anywhere near the top speed of a HS train: there's acceleration, deceleration and the need to build a few time buffers into the time plan. Moreover, if you drive FROM a city-centre station TO a city-centre station then you are going to get an even greater discrepancy due to the time "wasted" on rolling 100 km/h, or thereabout, through the suburbs. (This is one of my main arguments for generally not letting HS trains run through the incumbent stations in the city centres, BTW....) I don't think you'll get an effective speed on, say, Rome-Naples that is significantly above 200 km/h - regardless of the quality of the tracks.

As for the LGV-Est, well, you actually play right into my court. The time you quote is - as far as I can see - not between Paris Gare de l'Est and Metz centre, but between GdE and the new dedicated HS station between Metz and Nancy? The best travel time between Paris and Metz centre that I'm aware of is 1h 24m. As far as I know the line is about 325 km long, so it's still a much better effective speed than Rome-Naples and Milan-Turin, but a fair bit beneath 300 km/h nevertheless.

As for the trains beign allowed to exceed 320 km/h on LGV-Est in case of delay - that's more than I know. Are you sure? From what I read the line is technically prepared for 350 km/h but not yet approved for these speeds. (This would, with current rolling stocks, mean that the Germans could roll faster in France than SNCF. Oh, horror horribilis...) If true then trains are currently not allowed to drive faster than 320 km/h - not even in emergencies.
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Old March 1st, 2009, 11:41 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Note that the on the 303 km of the LGV est the journey time between Paris Gare de l'Est to Metz is about 1h 10 min - 1h 15 minutes.
On this line the top commercial speed is only 320km/h ...and it can be raised of 10-15% in case of late runnings......
Nope : the top commercial speed is 320 km/h, even if the line could be easily ("software only") upgraded to 350 km/h. The COVIT (contrôle de vitesse = speed control) triggers the emergency break as soon as the speed exceeds 335 km/h. Moreover, any driver who would willingly exceed the speed limit (320 km/h) regularly would be quite quickly reprimanded by his boss.

A better comparison would be Paris - Le Mans : 202 km in 54' ; 20 km of non high-speed line (160 km/h max) between Connerré and Le Mans.

As a French rail fan, I do not really understand why HSR performs so bad in Italy ; are there still points on your rail network that need strong upgrades, or is this due to more "cultural" concerns (even in France, trains don't run as properly near Marseilles as near Strasbourg, due to a more "latin" culture) ?

Last edited by mozatellac; March 2nd, 2009 at 01:39 PM. Reason: 335 and not 315km/h for the COVIT
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Old March 2nd, 2009, 01:04 AM   #386
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Nope : the top commercial speed is 320 km/h, even if the line could be easily ("software only") upgraded to 350 km/h. The COVIT (contrôle de vitesse = speed control) triggers the emergency break as soon as the speed exceeds 315 km/h. Moreover, any driver who would willingly exceed the speed limit (320 km/h) regularly would be quite quickly reprimanded by his boss.

A better comparison would be Paris - Le Mans : 202 km in 54' ; 20 km of non high-speed line (160 km/h max) between Connerré and Le Mans.

As a French rail fan, I do not really understand why HSR performs so bad in Italy ; are there still points on your rail network that need strong upgrades, or is this due to more "cultural" concerns (even in France, trains don't run as properly near Marseilles as near Strasbourg, due to a more "latin" culture) ?
AS far as I know extensive runnings at 360km/h have been carried out at 360km/h, using the Duplex TGV POS (I believe it was mentioned in Today's Railways Europe).
Regards,
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Old March 2nd, 2009, 01:12 PM   #387
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AS far as I know extensive runnings at 360km/h have been carried out at 360km/h, using the Duplex TGV POS (I believe it was mentioned in Today's Railways Europe).
Regards,
Yes but it was only test runnings (mainly to test the new TGV POS and DASYE). Current commercial runnings do not exceed 320 km/h, even when running late (sorry guys for the off-topic).
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Old March 2nd, 2009, 01:23 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by mozatellac
The COVIT (contrôle de vitesse = speed control) triggers the emergency break as soon as the speed exceeds 315 km/h.
Surely not? If so, does it apply to French trains only? I ask because I've been taking the ICE3 trains to Frankfurt a couple of times. They have a speed indicator in their cabin and I can attest to the fact that they were driving 320.00 km/h for significant parts of the trip between Paris and Baudrecourt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mozatellac
As a French rail fan, I do not really understand why HSR performs so bad in Italy ; are there still points on your rail network that need strong upgrades, or is this due to more "cultural" concerns (even in France, trains don't run as properly near Marseilles as near Strasbourg, due to a more "latin" culture) ?
Based on the earlier discussions on this thread I'd say the consensus seems to be building that there are two main causes. First, you don't have long stretches of uninterrupted HSL like in France and increasingly Spain. It will improve in the years to come, but trains still have to slow down in the city centres of Milan, Bologna, Florence and Rome. Secondly, the ETR500 trains are underpowered; they do reasonably well up to 200 km/h but accelerate extremely slowly thereafter. Taken in conjunction with the previous point, the effect of this is considerable. (You may compare with the German ICE3 auto-motored train, which jumps like a rabbit out of each station.) Finally, the old Direttissima HS like between Rome and Florence it not (or not yet...) equipped for speeds at 300 km/h.

As for "latin" culture, I don't think it has anything to do with the effective speed of the trains - once on the tracks. It may have something to do with the facts that FS usually complete its construction projects 2-5 years behind scedule.
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Old March 2nd, 2009, 01:38 PM   #389
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Surely not? If so, does it apply to French trains only? I ask because I've been taking the ICE3 trains to Frankfurt a couple of times. They have a speed indicator in their cabin and I can attest to the fact that they were driving 320.00 km/h for significant parts of the trip between Paris and Baudrecourt.
Sorry, I was thinking of the other French HSL, where the speed limit is 300km/h (apart from a short stretch on LGV Med). On the LGV Est, the COVIT brakes from 335km/h.
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Old March 8th, 2009, 04:07 AM   #390
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Surely not? If so, does it apply to French trains only? I ask because I've been taking the ICE3 trains to Frankfurt a couple of times. They have a speed indicator in their cabin and I can attest to the fact that they were driving 320.00 km/h for significant parts of the trip between Paris and Baudrecourt.



Based on the earlier discussions on this thread I'd say the consensus seems to be building that there are two main causes. First, you don't have long stretches of uninterrupted HSL like in France and increasingly Spain. It will improve in the years to come, but trains still have to slow down in the city centres of Milan, Bologna, Florence and Rome. Secondly, the ETR500 trains are underpowered; they do reasonably well up to 200 km/h but accelerate extremely slowly thereafter. Taken in conjunction with the previous point, the effect of this is considerable. (You may compare with the German ICE3 auto-motored train, which jumps like a rabbit out of each station.) Finally, the old Direttissima HS like between Rome and Florence it not (or not yet...) equipped for speeds at 300 km/h.

As for "latin" culture, I don't think it has anything to do with the effective speed of the trains - once on the tracks. It may have something to do with the facts that FS usually complete its construction projects 2-5 years behind scedule.

Sometimes it takes more than 3-5 years... for example in the case of the Direttissima Florence -Rome.

FS engineers have carried out extensive studies and projects on HSL's from the 50s until the mid 70s.

For instance, the final project (I believe by Edoardo Mori) of the upgrading of the Verona-Innsbruck-Munich was unanimously approved by the three administrations in 1974... (FS-UIC-74).

Now, on the Verona, side they don't have built much...yet, although there are many ongoing debates with the local authorities....

We will have to see.

The Italian decision making bureaucratic processes are fairly slow, perhaps historically influenced also by the presence of the Vatican.

After all what difference 20 or 30 years can make, compared to Eternity?

Take it from a Catholic.

Have a nice week-end.
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Old March 10th, 2009, 06:16 PM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozatellac View Post
As a French rail fan, I do not really understand why HSR performs so bad in Italy ; are there still points on your rail network that need strong upgrades, or is this due to more "cultural" concerns (even in France, trains don't run as properly near Marseilles as near Strasbourg, due to a more "latin" culture) ?
maybe because it's not finished yet?

True, there is also the decision to run trains through the city centers of the main cities. as Hans knows very well, there were very good geographical and demographic reasons for doing so.

Anyway travelling time between Rome and Naples will be 1 hour and it is a 225 km long railway, it does not seem to me a bad time at all. (225 km/h commercial speed) considering it includes about 20 km of urban railway links (205 AV line+urban connection in Rome+urban connection in Naples)

Thoeretically the journery time will be even shorter between Rome Tiburtina and Naples Afragola stations, the non-terminal AV stations of the 2 cities
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Old March 10th, 2009, 07:13 PM   #392
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True, there is also the decision to run trains through the city centers of the main cities. as Hans knows very well, there were very good geographical and demographic reasons for doing so.
I'll concede half of the point: there are geographic (and topographic) reasons for doing so. On the other hand, I would argue that the demographic case for running trains via the centres of Bologna and Florence is not stronger than, for example, running Madrid-Barcelona through downtown Zaragoza.
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Old March 11th, 2009, 02:07 AM   #393
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I'll concede half of the point: there are geographic (and topographic) reasons for doing so. On the other hand, I would argue that the demographic case for running trains via the centres of Bologna and Florence is not stronger than, for example, running Madrid-Barcelona through downtown Zaragoza.
Bologna underground station will connect all the italian AV and non AV main lines...in a way is like Lille, where AV lines from Amsterdaam, London and Paris meet.

In our case is Turin-Milan, Germany-Verona, Trieste-Venezia, Adriatic line and Firenze-Roma-Napoli line

Here is the map of the lines involved...not all of them of course are HSR lines

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Old March 11th, 2009, 02:26 AM   #394
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And here the (more or less...sorry not everything is correct) project for the Bologna connection

HSR line will have a dedicated path never touching the other standard lines (in green). There will be basically 2-4 tracks completely dedicated to HSR trains.

The HSR main line (Milano-Roma) will connect with interconnections (without interferences) with 2 other lines going to and from Verona and Venice.

Only HSR trains will stop at the 4 tracks of the underground BOlogna station, U/C under the existing surface station. The surface station will serve all normal trains running on the "green lines" and the locals.

So HSR trains will never criss cross other kind of trains in Bologna, they will have dedicated (new) rails and a dedicated (new) station.

A tunnel will pass under Bologna and run to the line to Florence which is almost completely underground because of the orography (as you can see mountains loom over BOlogna)

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Old March 11th, 2009, 09:09 AM   #395
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So, I take it the main problem (with speed) derives from the curve radius where the line swings west toward the Apennines? After all, the non-stop trains from Paris to Marseille gush through Lyon-St Exupery at full speed. The same would in theory be possible between Emilia-Romagna and Lazio, so the difference must be that they have hade to make concessions concerning the line. - Your wretched "geography" again...
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Old March 11th, 2009, 10:57 AM   #396
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So, I take it the main problem (with speed) derives from the curve radius where the line swings west toward the Apennines? After all, the non-stop trains from Paris to Marseille gush through Lyon-St Exupery at full speed. The same would in theory be possible between Emilia-Romagna and Lazio, so the difference must be that they have hade to make concessions concerning the line. - Your wretched "geography" again...
well the point is that we don't know yet since right now HSR trains coming from Milan have to slow down at the beginning of this above map, get on the "green" line, stop at the "green station" and go to Florence through the existing (surface) line instead the tunnel.

In fact the tunnel-line to Florence will open in December and the dedicated HSR line within Bologna proper (including the tunnel you can see above) and the new HSR underground station only in 2011

So even at the end of the year there will be the missing link of Bologna connection, resulting probably still in longer travelling time...because HSR trains will have to get into the messy and congested surface station where 8 tracks serve trains from all Italy (now it's 8 tracks because under 4 former tracks they are building the HSR station...they used to be more)

The line to Rome will be finished in reality in 2011, by then we shall see the real potential of the italian AV line
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Old March 11th, 2009, 11:01 AM   #397
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So, I take it the main problem (with speed) derives from the curve radius where the line swings west toward the Apennines? After all, the non-stop trains from Paris to Marseille gush through Lyon-St Exupery at full speed. The same would in theory be possible between Emilia-Romagna and Lazio, so the difference must be that they have hade to make concessions concerning the line. - Your wretched "geography" again...
I forgot...it's not a matter of concession. Milan is northwest of Bologna and Florence is south...the line has to turn that way there are no options but skipping Bologna completely...and making the tunnels even longer since between Florence and Bologna is where appennines are shallower and shorter
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Old March 11th, 2009, 12:30 PM   #398
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Finally as you can see from the map above there was another reason to build the line this way.

The HSR Bologna-Firenze will not serve only the Milano-Rome line (the main line of Italy) but also the Germany-Verona-Roma line and the Trieste-Venezia-Bologna-Roma line

So a train coming from Rome will do HSR line to Florence and Bologna, stop at HSR underground station then with an underground connection get to Venice on the "standard" line (or to Verona and the brenner pass)

So the Bologna Firenze as it has been planned serves in reality 3 lines in north Italy all converging on the HSR underground station.

Also people coming from all the small cities of the plain of the Po will be able to get with IC or regional trains to the "surface" Bologna station and then catch an HSR to Rome/Milan/Venice/Verona in the underground station

That's the meaning and the reason for creating this gigantic "rail hub". The main rail hub of south Europe
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Old March 11th, 2009, 04:19 PM   #399
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Bologna underground station will connect all the italian AV and non AV main lines...in a way is like Lille, where AV lines from Amsterdaam, London and Paris meet.

In our case is Turin-Milan, Germany-Verona, Trieste-Venezia, Adriatic line and Firenze-Roma-Napoli line

Here is the map of the lines involved...not all of them of course are HSR lines

The red dotted line indicating the Italian HSLs re somwewhat misleading.

1- The Turin -Milan the HSL section is only 125 km long. It starts after Turin and ends some 20km north of Milan Central at Rho -Fiera.

The ofificial maps and technicall specifications have been posted earlier in this thread.


Thus the red dotted line indicating the HSL crossing section avoiding Milan Central is somewhat inaccurate.

From Rho -Fiera (where the Turin- Milan HSL section ends) to Melegano, where the Milan-Bologna HSL begins, there are about 34 km to be crosssed slowly at speeds as low as 60-80km.

The Milan Bologna (2nd HSL section)

2-It is 182 km long section, 130 of which authorised for ceiling speed of 300km/h. From Reggio Emilia the trains will have to slow down to negotiate the subsequent "large" Modena curve which imposes a speed restriction of about 240 km/h . On the large Modena curve the train will have to slow down further to reach Lavino at speed not excceding 160-200 km/h. On the surface, the Lavino -Bologna surface historical section is only 10km long.

3-
The red dotted line from Bologna to Florence is somewhat indicative of the HSL Bologna- Florence.


All the other red dotted lines, such as the:

Bologna-Verona-Trento (To Brenner pass) ,

The Bologna-Padua-Venice- Trieste, and

The Bologna -Rimini -Ancona ( Bari/Lecce) are NOT REFERRING to HSL lines
.

The first map is at best misleading. Certainly creative.

Have e nice day
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Old March 11th, 2009, 04:22 PM   #400
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Of course, I wrote "not all the lines are HSR". These are the main lines converging into Bologna. I will make a better map with existing, U/C AV lines and the old traditional ones...give me time.

The purpose of the map is showing people which are not familiar with Italian geography of the reason why Bologna is such an important railways hub: 5 very important lines (some of them international) converge on it. Acually a few more smaller lines do too, as you probably know very well.

The 5 red lines are those important lines...they are not all HSR but they are all very important and sometime in the future they may all become HSR

Last edited by Eddard Stark; March 11th, 2009 at 04:46 PM.
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