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Old March 12th, 2009, 12:45 PM   #401
Eddard Stark
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To make Joseph happy here a (more or less) accurate situation of North Italy main railways. This being amatorial of course routes are not 100% accurate

I divided lines into 3 cathegories

  • HSR lines in red: new dedicated HSR lines with no IC or regional traffic. Speed above 200km/h (actually 300km/h for almost all with some limitations around Modena). These lines also use/will use ERMTS2 wireless system of communication and are electrified at 25
  • Fast traditional line in orange: these are traditional lines upgraded to 200 km/h or very close to that.
  • Traditional lines in green: these are traditional lines, they vary tremendously in quality (usually 160 km/h maximum speed but with often many limitations like in urban stretches

Also dotted the U/C lines and in points the planned new lines. I tried to put this piece of Italy on a map so you see where lines go and come for.

In red/green the main stations of Italy. In red the planned/U/C or existing HSR stations

Finally consider this piece of Italy is one of the most densely populated area of Europe, comparable to Rhein in Germany/benelux and central-south England. The population including Tuscany and Marche region is about 30 million people, 25 of which leave mainly in the broad Po plain. Metropolis like Milan and Turin are very close to each other and many other big cities (Veneto multipolar metroarea, Emilia line of cities, Genoa metro area, Florence metro area) populate this environment together with other sizeable middle-sized cities of 200-500K (Brescia, Verona for example)

One fit-for-all solution for this complex area was very difficult that's why the existing green lines have been integrated in the HSR system with planned intersection which will allow IC trains stopping at middle sized cities to use some pieces of the HSR links in the future. I signalled a few of them in yellow circles
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Old March 12th, 2009, 02:19 PM   #402
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Fair enough Eddard, I don't want to get too secterian about highspeed bypasses at large provincial cities. Take a look at this one, though:
http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/lgv_rr_BO.pdf.

It is what we could call a "piece of French pragmatism" - the future passthrough of Dijon. Like in Italy the options are constrained by the fact that the area is very hilly. The chosen solution involves a new station but - unlike, say, Lyon and Avignon - this station is located within the urban area. The curve radius will permit a passthrough at 230 km/h for non-stop trains. Personally I think it's a good compromise, serving the city as such instead of just racing past it, while at the same time not forcing TGVs to slow to the crawling pace of conventional trains.
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Old March 12th, 2009, 04:43 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Fair enough Eddard, I don't want to get too secterian about highspeed bypasses at large provincial cities. Take a look at this one, though:
http://www.rff.fr/biblio_pdf/lgv_rr_BO.pdf.

It is what we could call a "piece of French pragmatism" - the future passthrough of Dijon. Like in Italy the options are constrained by the fact that the area is very hilly. The chosen solution involves a new station but - unlike, say, Lyon and Avignon - this station is located within the urban area. The curve radius will permit a passthrough at 230 km/h for non-stop trains. Personally I think it's a good compromise, serving the city as such instead of just racing past it, while at the same time not forcing TGVs to slow to the crawling pace of conventional trains.
I agree...the only difference with Bologna is that it's not a provincial town but a metropolitan area of 1 million people (city500K) and it's the main hub of italian transportation (together with Milan) between all the main lines in Italy...so making a station not connected with the existing one would have harmed the possibility of creating a lot of relationships and possibilities which are not encompassed simply in the Milan-Rome route.

Right now Italy is building a HSR station included into the traditional one, allowing interchanges between the two modes of transportation. Something is probably not necessary in Dijon and if necessary is a minor issue.

Let me make an example: allowing people coming from the Adriatic line (non HSR) to get on a HSR train to Milan without having to travel 10 km between stations on taxi I think is important, wouldn't you agree? I'm telling you something very practical I have already done
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Old March 12th, 2009, 05:02 PM   #404
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Finally one note: no one knows for sure but the fact the the pass through in Bologna by 2011 will be made in a tunnel dedicated to HSR and in a HSR undrground station will allow anyway a pretty fast approach (without having to cross any other train or interchange) to the station. i am sure Joseph would disagree but currently trains have to slow 10 km before the station and go very slowly (at 60-80 km/h) all along the Bologna connection. Official times are very large to allow to recuperate any accident/time loss int he Bologna connection.That's now.

But in the future with dedicated HSR tracks allowing speed of 160km/h even very close to the station (before) and 300km/h 4-5 km after the station (which is by the way less than acceleration time) I think travelling time within Bologna connection will be cut quite dramatically.

Today travelling time inside the connection account for about 20 minutes. I wouldn't surprised if at the end it would be cut to 10 minutes only (5 minutes stop)

So the difference with a theoretical pass-through would be just 4-5 minutes
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Old March 12th, 2009, 09:32 PM   #405
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I take your point. Much, though, will depend on the next generation of rolling stock. As we've been over before, the ETR500 (whether they now call it "red arrow" or not...) is an extremely slow accelerator. Forcing it to slow down to regional train speed in both Bologna and Florence is a serious disruption. However...

...a new generation of auto-motriced HS trains could significantly reduce this drawback. I personally am very encouraged by NTV's challenge to FS. Had the game been left to the incumbent operator then we'd be left with underpowered trains for another generation, I've no doubt, but as it is we might yet see real progress in the years to come.
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Old March 13th, 2009, 10:41 AM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I take your point. Much, though, will depend on the next generation of rolling stock. As we've been over before, the ETR500 (whether they now call it "red arrow" or not...) is an extremely slow accelerator. Forcing it to slow down to regional train speed in both Bologna and Florence is a serious disruption. However...

...a new generation of auto-motriced HS trains could significantly reduce this drawback. I personally am very encouraged by NTV's challenge to FS. Had the game been left to the incumbent operator then we'd be left with underpowered trains for another generation, I've no doubt, but as it is we might yet see real progress in the years to come.
Well I trust you about the limitations of ETR500 (frecciarossa is the "commercial name" of the service, not the train) after all is a 20 years old train. However as you said NTV is bying 30 new trains and Trenitalia shall soon start a contest between the main manufacturers to buy 60 new HSR trains.

So at the end in Italy in a few years there will be 90 new trains to roll on our HSR system

And as far as I know we will be the only country with 2 operators in competition, I'm pretty positive that will enhance service, speed and reduce prices quite significantly. We may find one day in 10 yearsat the frontline of HSR in europe while other more "nationalistic" countries slip behind
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Old March 14th, 2009, 01:22 AM   #407
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All the lines converging in Bologna should be HSR- a man can dream can't he?
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Old March 14th, 2009, 03:41 PM   #408
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The line to Verona is already fast enough (200 km/h).
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Old March 16th, 2009, 11:44 AM   #409
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Well as Coccodrillo said the line to Verona has been recently upgraded (actually works are not even finished) at 200 km/h. From Verona there are concrete projects to build the HSR line to reach the new HSR Brenner pass tunnel (50km, preliminary works already started)

The line to Padova (and Venezia/Trieste) isn't particularly slow, the only big problem (the bridge on river PO) has been recently solved (new bridge). In the long term a HSR line to Padova isn't to be excluded.

The adriatic line unfortunately suffers from the fact that along the adriatic the population is much less than on the Tyrrenian see and also more sparse: there are no big cities but a big number of medium sized cities (Rimini, Pesaro, Ancona, San Benedetto, Pescara) all around 100-150K inhabitants. For this territory a standard HSR line makes little sense, also considering the hilly terrain would mean high construction costs

it may make sense a Bologna-Rimini HSR (in a territory which is flat) to speed up connections to Rimini and from there all the way to the middle adriatic, building a mixed HSR/noHSR system MILAN-BOLOGNA-RIMINI (HSR) - Ancona - Pescara - Foggia - Bari (non HSR)

Anyway both the above ideas are not even planned or considered at the moment
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Old March 25th, 2009, 02:51 PM   #410
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from Corriere the video of the first trip between Rome and Milan using the new Bologna-Firenze HSR line.

Do not miss our PM in the cabin boasting about himself! and with a train driver hat on!

the man knows how to do PR, we have to admit it...

the video has been made by journalists of Corriere travelling on the train

http://video.corriere.it/?vxSiteId=4...&vxBitrate=300
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Old April 20th, 2009, 05:44 AM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
I referred to the eurostar used for international service. I know all the the technical data about TGVs and ETR500.
however the weight of an ETR500 with 12 carriages is 616 tons (68 tons for each loco plus 40 tons for each carriage).that is to be precise.
I said before that ETR500 is slower than other trains, but with better comfort by comparison with ICE3 and newer TGV (duplex, reseau etc...). and not only italian people say that.

if you are convinced that italian HSLs are very bad... you don't understand anything.


in my behalf, this conversation with a so arrogant person ends now.

ETR500: from my Technical details
2x 68 ton locos = 136 tons


Carriages 12x 42/ton = 504

Total weight (empty train) = 640 tons

The original fiche for the carriages is 40 tons /carriage and not 42/tons .Unless they have removed something to further reduce maintenance ) thinner seats? Air conditionng, bolts and scotch tapes, usd to fix the broken windows, all remove?
Cearly 72 seats per second class car is quite cramped.
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Old April 21st, 2009, 12:58 AM   #412
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actually ETR500 is a veru comfortable train, especially after the recent renovation
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Old April 21st, 2009, 04:07 PM   #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
actually ETR500 is a veru comfortable train, especially after the recent renovation
Dear Eddard in Latin (with only one "t", there is an expression:

De gustibus disputandum est.

That is: "It's a matter of opinion"
or more precisely for the scholars:

"De gustibus non est disputandum
Da Wikipedia, l'enciclopedia libera
De gustibus non est disputandum - talvolta reso anche con De gustibus non disputandum est oppure De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum - Ŕ una locuzione latina molto diffusa ancor oggi. Intende sottolineare come i gusti non si discutano essendo assolutamente personali e riferibili perci˛ alla sensibilitÓ propria di ciascuno."

EN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_gust...st_disputandum

DE:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_l...r_Phrasen/D#De

Last edited by joseph1951; April 21st, 2009 at 04:18 PM.
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Old April 21st, 2009, 04:52 PM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
from Corriere the video of the first trip between Rome and Milan using the new Bologna-Firenze HSR line.

Do not miss our PM in the cabin boasting about himself! and with a train driver hat on!

the man knows how to do PR, we have to admit it...

the video has been made by journalists of Corriere travelling on the train

http://video.corriere.it/?vxSiteId=4...&vxBitrate=300

and to make a fool of himself, both in Italy and abroad.

The gaffe made by the Presidente del Consiglio at Bauckingham Palace, when shouting EHIIIIIIIIIIII
Mrrrrrrrrrrrr OBAAAAMMMMMA.

THEN HER MAJESTY CALMY TURNED BACKWARD AND CALMLY SAID:


"There is no need to be so loud and jolly"


The court jester was first told off, on the international stage. Then ignored by all the other Head of States AND PM's present at the G20 Summit.

Perhaps, unsurprisingly, President Obana has visited many European Countries but flown over Rome, ( flown over the Italian cuckoo's nest, at 500mph?).


Mr Berlusconi will have to crawl to Washington DC.

And the private meeeting between Mr Obama and MR Berlusconi will be deemed to be very, very, brief.

Jesus Christ did not stop at Eboli and Presdent Obama did not stop at Rome......


There is a substantial difference between the British Prime Minister, the French or American Presidents and the Italian Presidente del Consiglio.
The Italian Presidente del Consiglio can only give advice to the two legislative chambers, but does not have the executive power neither of the British PM, nor the double powers of the French or American Presidents.

In a rush, the Presidente del Consiglio can pass a law by decree.
The decree must then be ratified within 60 days, by both chambers in order to be converted in a Bill of law, or rejected.
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Old April 21st, 2009, 05:49 PM   #415
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The purpose of making fun of him was in my post too...only I do it with grace and you do it without
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Old April 22nd, 2009, 09:06 PM   #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Dear Eddard in Latin (with only one "t", there is an expression:

De gustibus disputandum est.

That is: "It's a matter of opinion"
Uh... yeah perhaps, Joseph, but when I went to Sunday school it was "De gustibus non disputandum est". Which translates into something like "There's no discussing taste". I'd have said that broadly squares, as free translations go, with your "it's a matter of opinion". Did you drop a "non"? Or are you making a more substantive point that has escaped me?
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Old April 22nd, 2009, 09:20 PM   #417
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or, if you prefer:

about tastes there's no discussion
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Old April 23rd, 2009, 06:25 AM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Uh... yeah perhaps, Joseph, but when I went to Sunday school it was "De gustibus non disputandum est". Which translates into something like "There's no discussing taste". I'd have said that broadly squares, as free translations go, with your "it's a matter of opinion". Did you drop a "non"? Or are you making a more substantive point that has escaped me?
I dropped the "non " as a mere typo" and the translation was liberal.
Your's is more accurate.
But I found it futile to try to make a point not only in this Italian TAV but also also on the thread of Bridge between Messina and Reggio C.
.

Last edited by joseph1951; May 25th, 2009 at 05:38 PM.
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Old April 23rd, 2009, 06:44 AM   #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post


1-
The purpose of making fun of him was in my post too...


only I do it with grace and you do it without


R:
1-
Really? Didn't you say that "wonderful " PR man konows how to do PR..we have to admit it"

Hre is exactly waht you wrote:

" the man knows how to do PR, we have to admit it..."

"the video has been made by journalists of Corriere travelling on the train"

Isnt' the Corriere owned by His Boadcastiness, Mr S. Berlusconi?
Did you use the "we" in a Royal fashion?

WE do disagree on the fact that His Broadcastiness is "a wonderful PR man".

And we have reason to believe the the loud man is is loosing not only his marble, but also a few other bits.


2-
You've got too much chutzpah to behave like a pious quetching yenta.

Yentas appear to be pious only when there are about to strike back, in order kill with neurosurgical precision.


A skill that you do not appear to be able to master, yet.

Last edited by joseph1951; April 23rd, 2009 at 06:57 AM.
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Old April 24th, 2009, 12:21 AM   #420
Eddard Stark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
R:
1-
Really? Didn't you say that "wonderful " PR man konows how to do PR..we have to admit it"

Hre is exactly waht you wrote:

" the man knows how to do PR, we have to admit it..."

"the video has been made by journalists of Corriere travelling on the train"

Isnt' the Corriere owned by His Boadcastiness, Mr S. Berlusconi?
Did you use the "we" in a Royal fashion?

WE do disagree on the fact that His Broadcastiness is "a wonderful PR man".

And we have reason to believe the the loud man is is loosing not only his marble, but also a few other bits.


2-
You've got too much chutzpah to behave like a pious quetching yenta.

Yentas appear to be pious only when there are about to strike back, in order kill with neurosurgical precision.


A skill that you do not appear to be able to master, yet.
wonderful PR was sarcastic, I don't post funny videos about Berlusconi because I believe in hime but because they are funny

And no, Corriere is not owned by Berlusconi. Not a bit. If you watched the video you would see it's quite critical of italian railways

relax, take it easy and learn to read
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