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Old April 24th, 2009, 12:32 AM   #421
Eddard Stark
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Anyway if you missed it here he is with the railway hat on

I know, he may look foolish but I think it's a great PR man...he knows how to make fun of himself.

The train was - as I wrote - the first one to go from Milan to Rome in only 3 hours

(someone thought it impossible)

From December this will be the time between the 2 cities, probably skipping Florence (yet to be seen)

Ah, I was forgetting: the man standing is Moretti, the head of italian FS. He was appointed by the leftist previous government but Berlusconi (so far) has kept him in place. His tenure is...well, controversial. He surely is confronting existing habits (especially from politicians) to have services with little traffic and a lot of costs, for this reason he is also very despised. He is supervising however the launch of the "frecciarossa" service, so far quite successful.
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Old April 28th, 2009, 10:38 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post



Anyway if you missed it here he is with the railway hat on

I know, he may look foolish but I think it's a great PR man...he knows how to make fun of himself.

The train was - as I wrote - the first one to go from Milan to Rome in only 3 hours

(someone thought it impossible)

From December this will be the time between the 2 cities, probably skipping Florence (yet to be seen)

Ah, I was forgetting: the man standing is Moretti, the head of italian FS. He was appointed by the leftist previous government but Berlusconi (so far) has kept him in place. His tenure is...well, controversial. He surely is confronting existing habits (especially from politicians) to have services with little traffic and a lot of costs, for this reason he is also very despised. He is supervising however the launch of the "frecciarossa" service, so far quite successful.

1- Transit of the Berlusconian ETR500 HP (High Personalities) Mi-Rome 3h at Firenze Castello Byapssing HS Station

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACFuG4SMAJ8

2- Transit (2nd Florentine urban area) on the new dedicated HS tracks of the Berlusconian train (2nd urban transit avoiding Florence Termini - I:E: Firenze SMN).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDOCG...eature=related

One can see that it takes about 1 minute for the train to cross the peripheral Florentine station on dedicated tracks, and at ultra fast snail speed, in reverse. At the end of the video on can see that, after teeh crossing in the station , the subsequent top speed towards Rovezzano Rovezzano is 90-95-100km/h .
Just after Rovezzano the "Old" High speed Florence -Rome - capable of only 250km/h, begins.
It was on the section Rovezzano-Rome that the best average speed of this faboulous train was achieved.

Non on the empty and new section Milan -Florence AV/AC.

AV: Alta Velocita' o Alta Voracita' (AV: High Velocity or High Voracity)?

This is the (first) question..

Last edited by joseph1951; April 28th, 2009 at 10:45 PM.
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Old April 29th, 2009, 10:42 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
1- Transit of the Berlusconian ETR500 HP (High Personalities) Mi-Rome 3h at Firenze Castello Byapssing HS Station

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACFuG4SMAJ8

2- Transit (2nd Florentine urban area) on the new dedicated HS tracks of the Berlusconian train (2nd urban transit avoiding Florence Termini - I:E: Firenze SMN).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDOCG...eature=related

One can see that it takes about 1 minute for the train to cross the peripheral Florentine station on dedicated tracks, and at ultra fast snail speed, in reverse. At the end of the video on can see that, after teeh crossing in the station , the subsequent top speed towards Rovezzano Rovezzano is 90-95-100km/h .
Just after Rovezzano the "Old" High speed Florence -Rome - capable of only 250km/h, begins.
It was on the section Rovezzano-Rome that the best average speed of this faboulous train was achieved.

Non on the empty and new section Milan -Florence AV/AC.

AV: Alta Velocita' o Alta Voracita' (AV: High Velocity or High Voracity)?

This is the (first) question..
YOu can see clearly on the video I posted that the train went at 300 km/h on the Milano-Bologna line.

you cannot give up, don't you?
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Old May 1st, 2009, 10:27 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by mozatellac View Post
Sorry, I was thinking of the other French HSL, where the speed limit is 300km/h (apart from a short stretch on LGV Med). On the LGV Est, the COVIT brakes from 335km/h.
Yes.
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Old May 1st, 2009, 12:27 PM   #425
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YOu can see clearly on the video I posted that the train went at 300 km/h on the Milano-Bologna line.

you cannot give up, don't you?
301 km/h exactly.

a)
It is well know that the new Italian mixed traffic HS/HC lines have some stretches omologated for 300km/h
b) That the ETR500 is certified for 300km/h . (The first prototype reached the 316km/h on the "Old" DD Florence -Rome, in the early '90.

c) That the maximum ceiling speed is rarely maintained throughout the entire length an HSL line: slack times are included to make up time, in case of late running.

d) Maximum projectual speed of a line is different from maximum top speed of a given train in commercial services.

e) For certification purposes the maximum speed of both line and train must exceed by at least + 10% the homologation max speed of the train and of the line.

f) maximum speed attained on new newly build, and unopened lines are subsequently not used in commercial services.

Example: LGV Est : maximum speed attained 574km/h.
Maximum current speed in commercial service : 320km/h

These are well known facts.

-------------------------------


You can also see on the other videos that I posted that:
The HS?HC stretches Milan-Bologna- Firenze-Castello were covered in 1h and 40 mintes

The crossing of Firenze-Castello passing station occurred at 13:40 pm, at a crawling pace:

The second station crossing, prior to Rovezzano’s interconnectio, n was done even at a lower speed.

It took about 1 minute to pass through the second station – and the train is less than 400 meters long.

So, the ETR500 AV /AP Alta’ Voracita’ Alte Personalita’ (HV /HP – High Voracity /High Personality, as the red arrow has been nicknamed) crossed that station on “dedicated “AV/AC” tracks at about 30km/h

After the crossing of the second station, the ETR500 is clearly accelerating towards Rovezzano and from the video is clearly visible that the HSL speed allowed from there to Rovezzano are 90-95-100.

Between the end of the Bo-Florence HSL and the beginning of the Florence-Rome DD, the underground Firenze-Belfione passing through station will be built. The train not stopping at Belfiore will further slow down at 80km/h.

So, in the section sarting at the end of BO-FI HS and continuing via Firenze-Belfiore AV + Firenze- Castello- Campo di Marte –> Rovezzano the max speeds will vary from 80- 100-30(?) -100-

Please note:
1-
The video, the official speed diagram and acceleration curve of the ETR500 (with 8 carriages) have been repeatedly posted both on this thread and on the Italian thread.
2-
I have posted several times the technical specifications of the Italian New HSLs, of the newly or soon(???) to be built underground stations.
3-
On the Milan-Florence newly built HLs the average speed was lower than that achiedved on the old DD Florence –Rome

(Source FOL = Ferrovie on Line)
4-
On the Bologna Florence HSL section the ETR500 HV/HPs , accelerated at 0.4m/s/2 and that the 300 km/h were attained and maintained for about 4 MINUTES.

(Source FOL = Ferrovie on Line)

5-
The newest trains bought by TI are the tilting ETR600 which will run on the new HS/HC at top speed of 250km/h. These are the newest Italian trains and they were deliverd and entered in revenue a few months ago.
So what is the reason that jusify the purchase of new trains certified for a top speed of 250km/h, if they have to be used in commercial revenue at speeds of 300km/h?

Even the Italian version of the AGV bought by NTV will have a top speed of 300km/h. Not of 360km/h. And they will enter in commercial service in 2011......


The ETR500 1st series was built in the mid 90 , and the delivery of the ETR500 2nd series with dual tension locos, started around year 2000. Some of the new carriages of the New ETR500 "red arrow" are about 15-16 years old.

The new thing about the ETR500s is the striped red, black, grey livery.

Last but not least a few links to attempt to refresh your pragmatic short , short-term memory.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...444909&page=17



http://www.ntvspa.it/ntvupload/utils...locitā-NTV.pdf

http://www.ntvspa.it/it/nuovo-traspo...tazioni-tratte

http://www.youreporter.it/video_La_P...ze_-_Bologna_1

Last edited by joseph1951; May 1st, 2009 at 12:51 PM.
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Old May 3rd, 2009, 12:05 AM   #426
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Joseph you fail to remember every time that both in Florence and Bologna there are no dedicated tracks YET as they are U/C.

Still, it managed to reach Rome in 3 hours, that means with the new dedicated tracks it could be faster, isn't it?

Here the update from the official FS (RFI) website which has been finally updated about Bologna and FIrenze bypass.

Bologna: 61% completed, opening December 2011



Firenze: 20% completed, opening (well...we hope) 2014. Constructions started in 2008

Link:

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...003f16f90aRCRD

Joseph please keep your post short or the section is unreadable to normal users. Thanks
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Old May 3rd, 2009, 12:08 AM   #427
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Besides, ETR500 reached above 350 km/h on the new Bologna-Firenze line during tests. Surely it can run at 300 km/h without any technical difficulty
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Old May 3rd, 2009, 11:40 PM   #428
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Here the update from the official FS (RFI) website which has been finally updated about Bologna and FIrenze bypass.

Bologna: 61% completed, opening December 2011

Firenze: 20% completed, opening (well...we hope) 2014. Constructions started in 2008
Sorry Eddard, but... well... I don't want to be a nasty guy or something. But.. surely you cannot consider these construction/opening times are NORMAL? I mean... the French started their construction of the LGV-Est several years after the Milan-Bologna-Florence line, and all railway stations along the line were finished two years ago. (Apart from the terminus in Strasbourg which was readied only this year.) Surely... I mean, SURELY it is not accepteable for the new highspeed stations in Florence, Bologna and Naples to be ready only after the Beijing Olympics???? NO, sorry guys, but...

....we're supposed to be adults here. Get your act together.
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Old May 4th, 2009, 12:03 PM   #429
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Sorry Eddard, but... well... I don't want to be a nasty guy or something. But.. surely you cannot consider these construction/opening times are NORMAL? I mean... the French started their construction of the LGV-Est several years after the Milan-Bologna-Florence line, and all railway stations along the line were finished two years ago. (Apart from the terminus in Strasbourg which was readied only this year.) Surely... I mean, SURELY it is not accepteable for the new highspeed stations in Florence, Bologna and Naples to be ready only after the Beijing Olympics???? NO, sorry guys, but...

....we're supposed to be adults here. Get your act together.
I agree
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Old May 4th, 2009, 12:08 PM   #430
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Sorry Eddard, but... well... I don't want to be a nasty guy or something. But.. surely you cannot consider these construction/opening times are NORMAL? I mean... the French started their construction of the LGV-Est several years after the Milan-Bologna-Florence line, and all railway stations along the line were finished two years ago. (Apart from the terminus in Strasbourg which was readied only this year.) Surely... I mean, SURELY it is not accepteable for the new highspeed stations in Florence, Bologna and Naples to be ready only after the Beijing Olympics???? NO, sorry guys, but...

....we're supposed to be adults here. Get your act together.
I don't think that is a fair comparison.

The French put 2 platforms along the track in the vast open land of the Champagne.
They also renovateted other stations in the cities.

You can't compare that with the kind of station building they are doing in Italy. Building an underground station in a densely populated urban area close to an operating railway is a major operation. The closest to compare would be Lille Europe station, but even Lille was built on a relatively easy excessible open stretch of land.
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Old May 4th, 2009, 12:19 PM   #431
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Also, more of the 70% of Bologna-Firenze is in tunnel and even the Torino-Milano and Milano-Bologna are mostly on viaducts

Building infrastructures in Italy is a bit more difficult than France or Spain
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Old May 4th, 2009, 12:28 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Sorry Eddard, but... well... I don't want to be a nasty guy or something. But.. surely you cannot consider these construction/opening times are NORMAL? I mean... the French started their construction of the LGV-Est several years after the Milan-Bologna-Florence line, and all railway stations along the line were finished two years ago. (Apart from the terminus in Strasbourg which was readied only this year.) Surely... I mean, SURELY it is not accepteable for the new highspeed stations in Florence, Bologna and Naples to be ready only after the Beijing Olympics???? NO, sorry guys, but...

....we're supposed to be adults here. Get your act together.
Well the problem, on top of what has been said already, is that construction of the underground bypasses of Florence and Bologna did not start at the same time as the interurban lines, for several reasons mainly connected to the very difficult approval process.

Construction of the Bologna bypass started in 2002 but the operations did not start on the whole lenght before 2004, while the Milano-Bologna (completed technically in 2007 but opened in 2008) started its construction in 2000

Bologna bypass let me say again is a complecated affair with an underground station and 12km of tunnels and 8 km of complete reenginering of the Bologna station entrance, all without stopping trains from running on the very same tracks. That involved moving tracks several times in order to build, piece by piece, every segment of the new tracks.

I have watched the construction for 8 years now every time I go from Milan to Pescara, if you want more details about what has been done in Bologna I can provide you

Le me say one more thing: the Turin-Novara HSR line was built in 3 years, and the same is true for the Novara-Milan, even if it involved a lot of works on the adjacent highway. Not all the HSR construction in Italy take a lot of time, only the very complex ones (which are most)
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Old May 4th, 2009, 12:47 PM   #433
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Bologna Bypass, main works:

Building of the underground, 2 tracks HSR tunnel from Bologna AV station to the Bologna-Firenze line (10 km)

Construction of the new HSR underground station, 4 tracks 600 meters long on 3 levels

Doubling of the tracks of the Bologna interconnection: from 4 to 8 tracks from Bologna to the split of the railways, 2 dedicated tracks for each line coming from the west (Bologna-Milano standard, Bologna-Milano AV, Porretana, Bologna-Verona) all the way to the HSR station/standard station

Interconnection of Lavino (west of Bologna) to allow HSR trains coming from Milan to stop also at the standard station (in order to proceed to the Adriatic line).

New interconnection with the Bologna-Venezia line, partly in tunnel partly on new tracks

Doubling inside Bologna of the Bologna-Verona (2 tracks instead of 1)

New centralised system to run the most complex interconnection of the italian railways from a central informatic system

All this without ever stopping traffic on the most important railway hub of italy
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Old May 4th, 2009, 11:36 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
Well the problem, on top of what has been said already, is that construction of the underground bypasses of Florence and Bologna did not start at the same time as the interurban lines, for several reasons mainly connected to the very difficult approval process.
Hum. Yes, well... you are a bit in the same situation as I was two years ago when I had to explain to Muslim colleagues that the Mohamad cartoons of my native Denmark could not be prevented on account of the Danish constitutional protections of free speach. Little did I understand at the time that these colleagues objected to the Danish constitution - full stop. I guess that...

...what I really have a problem with is the "difficult approval process" you talk about. To me, it is unserious and unacceptable for public authorities to construct a HSL from, say, Rome to Naples on the understanding that "the last 20 km will be finished later, as soon as the planning processes of Campania allow" and anyway "the new railway station in Afragola will be finished some five years after the finalisation of the line".

My heroes are the Norwegians who HELD BACK the opening of their new mega-international airport in Gardermoen because... the 200 km/h railway link to Oslo was not finished on time. The Prime Minister explained to the nation that, sorry, but as far as my government is concerned until the airport is properly linked to the national infrastructure network the airport is not fit to enter into operation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark
Bologna bypass let me say again is a complecated affair with an underground station and 12km of tunnels and 8 km of complete reenginering of the Bologna station entrance, all without stopping trains from running on the very same tracks. That involved moving tracks several times in order to build, piece by piece, every segment of the new tracks.
Eddard, I think we all understand that railway construction in Italy is very difficult. It is, obviously, due to the (1) mountains; (2) heavy density of population; and (3) risk of eathquakes. However, the making of an underground railway STATION in Florence is not, I think, more difficult than in, say, Zurich or London.
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Old May 5th, 2009, 12:46 PM   #435
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Hum. Yes, well... you are a bit in the same situation as I was two years ago when I had to explain to Muslim colleagues that the Mohamad cartoons of my native Denmark could not be prevented on account of the Danish constitutional protections of free speach. Little did I understand at the time that these colleagues objected to the Danish constitution - full stop. I guess that...

...what I really have a problem with is the "difficult approval process" you talk about. To me, it is unserious and unacceptable for public authorities to construct a HSL from, say, Rome to Naples on the understanding that "the last 20 km will be finished later, as soon as the planning processes of Campania allow" and anyway "the new railway station in Afragola will be finished some five years after the finalisation of the line".

My heroes are the Norwegians who HELD BACK the opening of their new mega-international airport in Gardermoen because... the 200 km/h railway link to Oslo was not finished on time. The Prime Minister explained to the nation that, sorry, but as far as my government is concerned until the airport is properly linked to the national infrastructure network the airport is not fit to enter into operation.



Eddard, I think we all understand that railway construction in Italy is very difficult. It is, obviously, due to the (1) mountains; (2) heavy density of population; and (3) risk of eathquakes. However, the making of an underground railway STATION in Florence is not, I think, more difficult than in, say, Zurich or London.
Well...the thing is that construction started only last year and the construction of the station itself did not start yet

Meanwhile there is the current station, Santa Maria Novella, which works just fine...it's not that without the bypass there are no stations in Florence! all thought since it's not a by-pass stations the really fast trains will not stop in Florence at all (as they do now)

The absence of this key missing link in Florence is that the running time unfortunately have to keep some "buffer time" in order to allow trains to recover whatever may happen in the Florence (and Bologna) interconnections where HSR trains NOW (but not in the future) have to share tracks with non-HSR and even regional trains.

What can I say? the system works anyway but I have no doubt it will work better when the bypasses are completed and the HSR trains have dedicated tracks with no interconnections witht he other tracks...
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Old May 5th, 2009, 12:57 PM   #436
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Ok Hans (and everyone else) I finally tried the Frecciarossa all the way to Rome from Milan (before only from Milan to Bologna)

Both trains (to go and come back) were early (5-10 minutes) even thought we passed (as Joseph raightly says) at snail pace in Bologna and Firenze urban sections (where as Hans lamentably pointed out the bypasses are not finished)

All that said the train (ETR500) in its refurbished version is the most comfortable train I have rode on: silent, smooth, spacious.

I have a proposal for train fanatics from Europe (Hans first of all, also Joseph) why don't you come to Milan next December/January when the Bologna-FIrenze will open and we can organise a trip on the HSR line to Rome (or Florence) and back? so you will get a taste of our system and you will see the strong and weak points of it first hand

I am very serious!

More details about the trip will come
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Old May 5th, 2009, 01:11 PM   #437
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Didn't you have a camera?
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Old May 5th, 2009, 02:34 PM   #438
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Didn't you have a camera?
forbidden...it's a long story!
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Old May 5th, 2009, 03:01 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark

I have a proposal for train fanatics from Europe (Hans first of all, also Joseph) why don't you come to Milan next December/January when the Bologna-FIrenze will open and we can organise a trip on the HSR line to Rome (or Florence) and back? so you will get a taste of our system and you will see the strong and weak points of it first hand

I am very serious!

More details about the trip will come
I might yet hold you to that proposal! OK, I have family obligations over X-mas, but I also have a wife who's crazy about all things Italian. It wouldn't be hard to persuade her to make a dash to Lombardia or Emilia Romagna. I guess the most impressive aspect of such a trip would be the extensive tunelling through the Apennines? I have tried the ETR 500 (on ordinary track between Venice and Verona) and didn't find it so special - just like the TGV-Reseau, apart from its top speed, is a relatively unimpressive train. I guess the other thing you want me to see is how densly populated the Po Vally is? The train races past village after village, mostly on a viaduct at first-floor level. Quite different from the TGVs that thunder majesticly through the empty spaces of the Northen French plains. But, again, I wouldn't mid seeing it for myself.
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Old May 5th, 2009, 04:25 PM   #440
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I might yet hold you to that proposal! OK, I have family obligations over X-mas, but I also have a wife who's crazy about all things Italian. It wouldn't be hard to persuade her to make a dash to Lombardia or Emilia Romagna. I guess the most impressive aspect of such a trip would be the extensive tunelling through the Apennines? I have tried the ETR 500 (on ordinary track between Venice and Verona) and didn't find it so special - just like the TGV-Reseau, apart from its top speed, is a relatively unimpressive train. I guess the other thing you want me to see is how densly populated the Po Vally is? The train races past village after village, mostly on a viaduct at first-floor level. Quite different from the TGVs that thunder majesticly through the empty spaces of the Northen French plains. But, again, I wouldn't mid seeing it for myself.
ETR500 has been changed inside...it's much nicer looking and much more comfy...I think it will surprise you.

Yes, here the things to see

1) The po valley, a without solution line of cities, factories, villages, farms, houses, highways. Similar to Rhein Germany but with more sun and happier looking

2) the incredibly complicated Bologna junction...and all the ongoing construction

3) the 80 km (almost uninterrupted) tunnel between Bologna and Firenze

4) One of the most beautiful railways on earth between Florence and Rome, accross the Tuscan countryside which seems falling from the most beautiful paintings of the renaissance

5) ROME! not the railway, the city itself...the most grandiose city of the world...with Paris of course!

In 3 hours we can be in Rome from Milan...it's not gonna be cheap but it's gonna be nice (it should be 150€ roundtrip per person...maximum, if we cannot find offers). and then you can have with your wife a weekend in Rome. Of course I would bring mine as well (i am in the 20% of the SSC forumers which happen not to be gay )

The invitation is open to anyone which wants to try the new Italian TAV from December onwards...it could be done in January or next spring. But January without the crowds means you can see Italy in a different, more natural way

Eddie Stark
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