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Old May 5th, 2009, 06:48 PM   #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
However, the making of an underground railway STATION in Florence is not, I think, more difficult than in, say, Zurich or London.
London and Zurich are wonderful cities but Florence is a living masterpiece that must be protected.
In Italy there are strict conservation laws. We can discuss forever if these laws are transforming our cities into theme parks or not, but today the law says that the Ministry of Cultural Heritage (and its local branch) must approve every single project in downtown Florence (or Rome, Venice, Naples etc. etc.).
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Old May 6th, 2009, 12:59 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
ETR500 has been changed inside...it's much nicer looking and much more comfy...I think it will surprise you.

Yes, here the things to see

1) The po valley, a without solution line of cities, factories, villages, farms, houses, highways. Similar to Rhein Germany but with more sun and happier looking

2) the incredibly complicated Bologna junction...and all the ongoing construction

3) the 80 km (almost uninterrupted) tunnel between Bologna and Firenze

4) One of the most beautiful railways on earth between Florence and Rome, accross the Tuscan countryside which seems falling from the most beautiful paintings of the renaissance

5) ROME! not the railway, the city itself...the most grandiose city of the world...with Paris of course!

In 3 hours we can be in Rome from Milan...it's not gonna be cheap but it's gonna be nice (it should be 150€ roundtrip per person...maximum, if we cannot find offers). and then you can have with your wife a weekend in Rome. Of course I would bring mine as well (i am in the 20% of the SSC forumers which happen not to be gay )

The invitation is open to anyone which wants to try the new Italian TAV from December onwards...it could be done in January or next spring. But January without the crowds means you can see Italy in a different, more natural way

Eddie Stark
LOL. I didn't know there was straight people on here...

What's so complicated about the Bologna junction?
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Old May 6th, 2009, 02:33 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by city_thing View Post
LOL. I didn't know there was straight people on here...

What's so complicated about the Bologna junction?
there are a hanful

Don't ask...it's a mess.

Basically 4 lines converge from the west, with underground connection between some of them. Then the new line (U/C) goes underground to the new underground station U/C underneath the existing one...well I will make a map one day, look at my post with a map and you will see how complicated it is
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Old May 6th, 2009, 05:39 PM   #444
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This one without HS bypass



This one wit HS bypass

[IMG]http://i42.************/xkn2tg.jpg[/IMG]
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Old May 6th, 2009, 06:16 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Joseph you fail to remember every time that both in Florence and Bologna there are no dedicated tracks YET as they are U/C.

Still, it managed to reach Rome in 3 hours, that means with the new dedicated tracks it could be faster, isn't it?

Here the update from the official FS (RFI) website which has been finally updated about Bologna and FIrenze bypass.

Bologna: 61% completed, opening December 2011



Firenze: 20% completed, opening (well...we hope) 2014. Constructions started in 2008

Link:

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...003f16f90aRCRD
Thank you Genius, this is more accurate but less clear

Last edited by Eddard Stark; May 6th, 2009 at 11:13 PM.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 10:52 PM   #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Thank you Genius, this is more accurate but less clear
With reference to post #416.
Quote "Joseph please keep....short"

The post quoting "Joseph" has nothing to with me. Nor indeed the map(s).

It seems to be an artful copy, and paste and editing of various things.

Besides what are the word in light grey, and in small print, under in the second map?

I would like to state quite clearly that, in earlier discussions, I merely posted the official links of the various official projects.

Not a re-editing of the said projects..

The reading of the latest posts by eddard, appear to have some quite disturbing connotations, of various nature, ranging from personal invitations to be escorted in a tour, to obnoxious tourist propaganda, to "statistics" related to the alleged "sexual orientations of the vast majority of readers", which might be deemed as insulting by some forumers.

None of the arguments recently posted by the said Eddard Stark, seem to be pertinent to an international debate on High Speed trains and High Speed Lines.

For the above reasons, I stopped intervening in the discussion, and I would greatly appreciate if eddard stark , could refrain himself from unduly quoting my screename, or adding in his maps messages or warning, adresssed to me.

What is the point in putting at the bottom of a map a message in which he tells me to keep my posts short, if I do not post at all?

This action might be construed as harrassment.

Nor I intend to, unless repeatedly forced to.

Mr Stark should be able to make a point on Italian HSLs, without having to resort to trickery, or attempting to climb mirrors.

For the record, I was born in the Po Valley, and I was in Italy as recently as 23-27th, April 2009.

Landing to, and departing from Bologna.

I certainly do not need his escort for a tour of Italian HSLs.

I would like to draw the attention of the person (s) monitoring this website.

Last edited by joseph1951; May 7th, 2009 at 12:00 AM.
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Old May 6th, 2009, 11:09 PM   #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
The post quoting Joseph has nothing to with me. It seems to be an artful copy and paste and editing of various things.

Besides what are the word in light grey and small print under in the second second map?

I would like to state quite clearly that I merely posted the officla link of the projects.
I do no tknow what is going on but, I would like to draw the attention of the person(s) monitoring this website.
You can clearly read "originally posted by Eddard Stark" up above. it's my post answering one of yours...I quoted myself in order to show that official RFI map (on the RFI website)

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...003f16f90aRCRD

Don't feel persecuted, relax and take it easy
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Old May 7th, 2009, 12:07 AM   #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Thank you Genius, this is more accurate but less clear

Incidentally, this is the RFI official plan of Bologna underground crossing, as posted in the official Italian Bologna -HS website. One can see the difference with the one "re-drawn" earliear, and posted by a forumer.

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...3f16f90aRCRD#2

Last edited by joseph1951; May 7th, 2009 at 12:14 AM.
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Old May 7th, 2009, 12:21 AM   #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
This one without HS bypass



This one wit HS bypass

[IMG]http://i42.************/xkn2tg.jpg[/IMG]
The second map has been re-drawn by the orginal posting forumer.

The official plan/map posted on the official RFI website, relating to Bologna underground crossing is the one posted at the bottom of this post.

I wonder what is the purpose of fiddling with posts and maps....

Is it possible that RFI's engineers can't even draw an official map/plan?

Why does RFI needs the help of a forumer, in drawing a map?

Perhaps to make it more "palatable" to an international "audience"?


===========
Official RFI map on Bologna HS underground crossing.
The difference is obvious

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...3f16f90aRCRD#2

Last edited by joseph1951; May 7th, 2009 at 12:27 AM.
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Old May 7th, 2009, 01:01 AM   #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Incidentally, this is the RFI official plan of Bologna underground crossing, as posted in the official Italian Bologna -HS website. One can see the difference with the one "re-drawn" earliear, and posted by a forumer.

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...3f16f90aRCRD#2
Not me...The phare above means "thank you Genius for posting those 2 maps, however the map I am quoting is more accurate than your 2 but less clear"

Now what's wrong with what I said?

My map is from the official website as well, is the one I posted and quoted

Can you stop your persecution delirium and come back to earth?

Incidentally here the link to the map I posted, please open it and stop accusing me

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...003f16f90aRCRD
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Old May 7th, 2009, 01:07 AM   #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
This one wit HS bypass

[IMG]http://i42.************/xkn2tg.jpg[/IMG]
This is not 100% accurate but it shows (in red) all the lines which are U/C in the Bologna rail interconnection. In this it is correct

Not all red lines are HSR, only the one coming from Milan and going to Florence. However HSR trains will be able (and already do) to ride on the lines going to Venice and Verona interconnected with modern non-overlapping interconnections with the bypassing tunnel and the new underground HSR station
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Old May 7th, 2009, 01:45 AM   #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Not me...The phare above means "thank you Genius for posting those 2 maps, however the map I am quoting is more accurate than your 2 but less clear"

Now what's wrong with what I said?

My map is from the official website as well, is the one I posted and quoted

Can you stop your persecution delirium and come back to earth?

Incidentally here the link to the map I posted, please open it and stop accusing me

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...003f16f90aRCRD

And the diagram is under the heading "il progetto" ---> "the plan" "lo schema del nodo--- the junction scheme/plan"


where the map and the technical features are described in Italian
Velocita' di esercizio 80km - 250km = Speeds in commercial revenue 80km - 250km.
http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...003f16f90aRCRD

I do not think is advisable to fiddle with official documents which are deposited and patented.

Partially re-colouring black lines (standard lines) in red to make them appear HSL lines might be deemd in breach of deposited copyright and misleading.

The English official version of Bologna Junction

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20Junction.pdf
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Old May 7th, 2009, 09:32 AM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
And the diagram is under the heading "il progetto" ---> "the plan" "lo schema del nodo--- the junction scheme/plan"


where the map and the technical features are described in Italian
Velocita' di esercizio 80km - 250km = Speeds in commercial revenue 80km - 250km.
http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...003f16f90aRCRD

I do not think is advisable to fiddle with official documents which are deposited and patented.

Partially re-colouring black lines (standard lines) in red to make them appear HSL lines might be deemd in breach of deposited copyright and misleading.

The English official version of Bologna Junction

http://www.rfi.it/cms-file/allegati/...20Junction.pdf
Please let me say again I did not colour the map

However whoever did it did so in order to show all the lines which have been updated/remade in the Bologna junction. By the way they are all part of the HSR system. I never heard the asociation red=HSR

The Bologna bypas is about several things not only the underground bypass but several new interconnections which are shown in red...they could have been shown in yellow for what I care.

Last edited by Eddard Stark; May 7th, 2009 at 09:37 AM.
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Old May 7th, 2009, 11:04 AM   #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
The second map has been re-drawn by the orginal posting forumer.

The official plan/map posted on the official RFI website, relating to Bologna underground crossing is the one posted at the bottom of this post.

I wonder what is the purpose of fiddling with posts and maps....

Is it possible that RFI's engineers can't even draw an official map/plan?

Why does RFI needs the help of a forumer, in drawing a map?

Perhaps to make it more "palatable" to an international "audience"?


===========
Official RFI map on Bologna HS underground crossing.
The difference is obvious

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...3f16f90aRCRD#2
I simply find out these maps by googling: they seemed to me quite correct and I posted 'em (as someone asked to know something more about Bologna junction)
Anyway those are the sources:
First map http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalo_m...gna_San_Donato
Second map http://www.italferr.it/cms/v/index.j...0080a3e90aRCRD - PDF http://www.italferr.it/cms-file/alle...odoBologna.pdf


That's all

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Old May 21st, 2009, 07:23 AM   #455
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Is the Milan - Venice TAV going to be ready by the end of this century?
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 02:07 PM   #456
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Is the Milan - Venice TAV going to be ready by the end of this century?
Probably... even less ! On average from thinking about it, to talking about it, to start the works, it takes about 50-60 years. To construct it and finish it another 20-30 years.

Probably they will gradually open some short sections every 5-10 years (i.e: Treviglio-Brescia and Padua- Vicenza???) which will be useful to keep time, bu not to significally reduce the overall journey time.

It took 30 years to build the so called HC section from Milan to Treviglio (about 20-24 km).

At the moment, in this section the HC does not have flyovers, so the speed is limited to 100km/h, and the fast trains Milan-Bergamo have to cross the 2 slow tracks at very reduced speed.
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Old May 22nd, 2009, 03:36 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
Probably... even less ! On average from thinking about it, to talking about it, to start the works, it takes about 50-60 years. To construct it and finish it another 20-30 years.

Probably they will gradually open some short sections every 5-10 years (i.e: Treviglio-Brescia and Padua- Vicenza???) which will be useful to keep time, bu not to significally reduce the overall journey time.

It took 30 years to build the so called HC section from Milan to Treviglio (about 20-24 km).

At the moment, in this section the HC does not have flyovers, so the speed is limited to 100km/h, and the fast trains Milan-Bergamo have to cross the 2 slow tracks at very reduced speed
.
3 years

the speed is not 100 km/h but much more
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Old May 25th, 2009, 08:42 AM   #458
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Damn 30 years? I don't know which one of you guys is right but 30 years to do that part would just be shameful
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Old May 25th, 2009, 05:57 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by jayOOfoshO View Post
Damn 30 years? I don't know which one of you guys is right but 30 years to do that part would just be shameful
Milan - Treviglio after the upgading by adding 2 extra "fast tracks- (First section of th Line AV/AC Milan-Venice)

The inhabitants of Treviglio have waited about 30 years to have 4 tracks on the Milan-Treviglio section of the Milan -Venice line. Please refer to stagni.web. Although this website is momentarily closed in sign of protest, it wil be reopened soon.

After the completion of the 2 HS tracks from Milan to Treviglio, the speed on the now 4 tracks section, has been reduced from 160-km/h to 100km/h. The problem is that, in order to serve Bergamo, the Milan-Bergamo trains have to cross the 2 slow and the 2 fast tracks at 30km/h. They forgot to build the flyovers avoiding the flat crossings of the 4 tracks.

This causes a slow down of all trains, either stopping or non-stopping at Treviglio.
Therefore, after the addition of two extra "Fast tracks" (sic!) on the section Milan - Lambrate to Treviglio, the overall speed on that section has been reduced considerably. On the 4km long section between Milan-Central to Milan-Lambrate the max speed is 60km/h. Then tere is a speed restriction to 100km, for about 20km, with a further redion of speed to 30km/h, on the 24 km long section from Lambrate to Treviglio . This latter speed restriction is imposed to all train covering the jouney from Milan to Bergamo via Treviglio.

The journeys between Milanand Treviglio were faster "BEFORE" teh opening of the new HS section (sic) Milan-Lambrate-Treviglio AC (High Capacity) !!!!!!!!!!


Flat crossings vs flyovers.
The Italian railways , unlike other European Railways, have been quite reluctant to impletement flat crossings at 60km/h or crossing carried out at speeds of 100km/h. Even the crossing from the Fast and Slow Rome-Florence lines can be made only at 95-100 km/h , although some of then can be taken at 160km/h.

The slow crosings speed is done for administrative failure, on the part of FS/TI, to implement new regulations.

The Italian Railways has failed to acknowledge fly-overs (saut de moutons). Although saut de moutons are nothing new, for TI they seem to be someting coming out of science fiction.


Florence-Rome High Speed Line interconncted with the slow line (Called by the Italian FS technicians "System of interconnected qadrupling")

The preliminary studies, carrid out to asses the hypothesis of feasibility of the upgrading of the old Florence-Rome, versus the need build a new HS line between the two towns, with a construction of the DD Rome -Florence, started in 1958.

On the construction of the Driettissima (DD/HSL) Rome-Florence, the first "stone" was laid down on 25th June 1970.

At the ceremiony, among other authorities, were present the then Transport Minister, Mr. Viglianesi, and the Italian State Railways Ing. Rubens Fienga.

For the occasion, a special commemorative medal was coined.

In 1998 the HS line Rome Florence was not yest completed.

Florence juntion.

There was a strong disagreement between the Italian State & the FS on one side, and Florence administration and the Tuscany region on the other side.

The Tuscany region and Florence bureaucrats rejected the FS plan, proposed for the Florence junction.

The problem continues today, 39 years later.

The FS plans, laid down for the Florence junction were far more simple and far more effective than those approved recently (Firenze -Castello then Firenze Belfiore , etc).

The latter plans do not allow for the high speed crossing of Florence. The speeds will range from 80 to 100km/h, for about 10kms.

If everything goes accodirding to plna the new Florence -Belfiore AV will be opnend in 2014...


In the original FS plan, drafted by FS for the Florence junction, two main works were planned:

1- The High Speed ground crossing between Rovezzano and Campo di Marte, turning Campo di Marte Station as a semi- underground station The Firenze-CM depot was going to be demolished, to build the fast tracks for the HSTs non-stopping there as well as the slow tracks for HST calling at Florence-CM.

The non-stop HSTs would have continued towards Prato at 180km/h, and after that, on the "Old Florence - BO" historical line.

2- The second crossing was to be undergound, just under the historical Florence-SMN Station. After the Florence-SMN crossing or stopping, the HSTs wodul have continued on the 4 HS tracks from Florence to Prato.

3- Also there were plans to build a spur connecting Florence HS Station to the Florence-Pisa line.


Rome External rail ring.

The plan was agreed and made executive in 1938. It was reviewed in 1973 . The project is still unfinished.

Source: Edoardo Mori, in Treno da Roma a Firenze. Publisher ; Calosci - Cortona, 1981


The Brenner Axis (Verona-Innsbrck -Muenchen)

During the decade 1950-1960 several studies and options were considered by the three railways administrations involved, including the proposal of a new line between Muenchen and Garmisch P. Also several tunnel options between Munich and Bolzano were considerd. (Studies by Antonio Sardagna, Dresler, Neuner, Marin, etc).

At the end, for the section Innsbruck - Bolzano (Bozen) the Mori's solution was adopted unanimoulsy by the three administations involved. The project is called FS UIC-74., and although approved in 1974, on the Italian side, the works are still in the "exploratory phase". Also, the oppostion from the local inhabitants is still untaimed.


Source: Edoardo Mori, La ferrovia da Verona a Monaco di Baviera. Publisher: Calosci - Cortona, 1983[/

===========================================================================

There are many more examples of upgrading of lines, such as the Bologna - Verona and the Adriatica main lines mostly finished but with new faster speeds not implemented.

It took almost 30 years to lay down the 2nd track of the 114 km long Bologna-Verona line. And this happened in the middle of the PO valley, which is the flattest part of Italy.

Furthermore since it was first built as a single track line, the Bologna-Verona line was planned to accomodate the second track!

On the Adriatic main line, in the long sections already upgraded and doubled for 200 kph runnings., the maximum speed is still restricted to 150kph, for failure to implement the new train control system.

Futhermore, the Adriatic line is not directly connected at Bologna -Central with the new HSL Bologna-Milan. Nor it will be for the foreseeable future. If a passenger travelling from the Adriatic Line intends to speed up his journey to the North, he will have to change train at Bologna-Central for Milan or Turin.
As a matter of fact, with the new Winter 2008/Summer 2009 timetable the Adriatic line is now practically disconnected not only to Northern Italy, but also to Vienna or Munich..

Considering that the Germans have made the fortune of resort towns such as Rimini....


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The videos shoving the slow crossing of Firenze-Castello and Firenze Campo di Marte have repeatedly been posted on this post.
Here below here I will post again some "tasty" samples.

High Speed non stop train High Voracity, High Personalites Frecciarossa Fast Milan -Rome
in 3hrs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACFuG4SMAJ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDOCG...eature=related

Link - REFI Brochures - with all the projects of HS/HC lines an junctions.
http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...0080a3e90aRCRD

PATHETIC BERLUSCONI
On HSL- HST Milan - Florence-Rome non-stop - Frecciarossa - Fast - High Personalities- High Voracity -High Eminences -

Note the dropping of pasta during the gloved silver services. Remarakble is Mr Berlusoni comment about "cute girls to hand over to the train's pilots (sic!), and the comment of the waiter who points out that, in the train restaurant car, they treat all travellers as "normal persons", including the commuters....and this was just before a colleague of his dropped the pasta on the floor!

As a PR video it could hardly have been worse. Almost as bad as Berlusconi's appearance on the G20 summit.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...444909&page=20


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...444909&page=16
Google it : Milano Treviglio AC - page 1 of 10

http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q=...tryIT&aq=f&oq=

Last edited by joseph1951; May 25th, 2009 at 06:38 PM.
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Old May 30th, 2009, 07:15 PM   #460
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Damn 30 years? I don't know which one of you guys is right but 30 years to do that part would just be shameful
A few days ago the money previously allocated to the Bari Naples- HC-Line and subsequtnly allocated to the Verona-Padua HSL , has been subtracted from the planned Verona-Padua HSL and reallocated to the Naples-Bari HSL..
The usal saga of stealing from Peter to pay Paul, and vice-versa.
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