daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 3rd, 2009, 11:30 PM   #541
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

hmm

according to wikipedia, even the longest tunnel on this line less than 17 kms long
so it isn't just one long tunnel, its a series of 9 tunnels

and there are a lot of short tunnels like these for 300 kph in germany for example

Pianoro, 10.876 m
Sadurano, 3.855 m
Monte Bibele, 9.101 m
Raticosa, 10.363 m
Scheggianico, 3.559 m
Fiorenzuola, 15.211 m
Borgo Rinzelli, 717 m
Morticine, 654 m
Vaglia, 16.752 m
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 4th, 2009, 03:01 AM   #542
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I thought the new bored HS tunnels were all supposed to be separated single tracks? My Swiss friends have been tooting in my ears about this being safer than two-way tunnels. But, enfin, perhaps the Swiss are just silly?
twin bore is safer - if, and only if, the tunnels are really long.

Using twin tunnels air can be pumped into one, and sucked out of the other, during the tunnelling process. Otherwise CO2 builds up at the cutting face with tragic consequences. The swiss learnt that over a hundred years ago.

For the same reasons in operation twin bore allows passengers to escape fire from one tunnel by going into the other, a la the channel tunnel.

Over the shorter distances of the Italian sections in question this is not such an issue. Plus there isn't a million miles of rock above the tunnel to get ventilation shafts and escapes routes through.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2009, 11:33 AM   #543
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

Well, the Apenines crossed by TAV Firenze-Bologna line get up to 1.800m. Sure, not like the Swiss Alps, yet we're not talking about an "environmental tunnel" 10m below ground level.
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2009, 12:29 PM   #544
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Yes.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2009, 05:06 PM   #545
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 755
Likes (Received): 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Using twin tunnels air can be pumped into one, and sucked out of the other, during the tunnelling process. Otherwise CO2 builds up at the cutting face with tragic consequences. The swiss learnt that over a hundred years ago.

For the same reasons in operation twin bore allows passengers to escape fire from one tunnel by going into the other, a la the channel tunnel.
Thanks; I wasn't aware of the first consideration. The second one, yes. The fire in the Mont Blanc tunnel about a decade ago (not a railway tunnel, but the principle is the same) had such devastating consequences because the poor bastards who got trapped didn't have a second tunnel to escape to.
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2009, 01:54 AM   #546
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I thought the new bored HS tunnels were all supposed to be separated single tracks? My Swiss friends have been tooting in my ears about this being safer than two-way tunnels. But, enfin, perhaps the Swiss are just silly?
The project of this railway is older, when two-tube tunnels where not so common (they started to be more considered even for railway tunnels after the Mont Blanc disaster).

Today most transit tunnels in Europe are built with two tubes, even the Saverne tunnel on the LGV Est in France, only 4 km long, will probably have two tubes.

In Japan instead continue to build one-tube tunnels, even the Seikan (54 km) has a rescue tunnel for only abour 23 km of its length.

Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Over the shorter distances of the Italian sections in question this is not such an issue. Plus there isn't a million miles of rock above the tunnel to get ventilation shafts and escapes routes through.
Tunnels on this line have an exit only every 7 km, between these exits there are no parallel tunnels (except for the first 6 km of the Vaglia tunnel where there is a service tunnel but no intermediate exit). But railway tunnels are safer because trains (usually) can't have a front collision.

(by the way, all remember the Mont Blanc tunnel disaster, nobody the Kaprun one)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2009, 02:02 AM   #547
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799



i wonder about those loooong and plentyful tunnels in china and korea, how they do it..
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2009, 05:27 AM   #548
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 755
Likes (Received): 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
(by the way, all remember the Mont Blanc tunnel disaster, nobody the Kaprun one)
I find it very upsetting to be called "nobody", coccodrillo. I remember Kaprun very well, because of a slightly bitter-sweet memory of Switzerland several years earlier.

I took the funicular up (from Lauterbrunnen?) to Muerren in the Bernese Oberland. The interior of the car was so scraped-down that it would have made even a Spartan ashamed, and I commented on this extreme simplicty to one of the local guys. He eyed me without favour and gestured toward the floor and the walls: "Look, mein Herr. This is steel and this is also steel. And, if it were anything but steel we'd be in a fire trap!" I shrugged my shoulders and at the time, to my discredit, thought it a convenient excuse for doing nothing for the clients. But... there you go, he was proven right. Kaprun became such a disaster because the cabins of that funicular was stuffed full of artificial materials.
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2009, 07:45 AM   #549
pcrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 83
Likes (Received): 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Kaprun "nobody" ??
Kaprun boosted the awareness of passive fire protection, including use of
fire-resistant material, which does not propagate fires and does not
generate dangerous fumes. The most advanced standards for railway
vehicles have been used in France and Italy. Germany normally leading
technical development was lagging fare behind and picked-up up to the
today standards only with introduction of the TSI standards.

Actually what I'm wondering: are there also fire standards for
skisuits, skiboots and party clothes?
pcrail no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2009, 02:30 PM   #550
andrelot
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 861
Likes (Received): 7

No there aren't. And chinese sport gear imports are made of even more flammable materials.
andrelot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2009, 10:18 PM   #551
LUCAFUSAR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,697
Likes (Received): 231

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The project of this railway is older...

...
Early/mid '90s.
LUCAFUSAR está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2009, 10:21 PM   #552
LUCAFUSAR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,697
Likes (Received): 231

ETR600 on the other "Direttissima": the Bologna/Florence.



http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/...vp.php?id=2628
LUCAFUSAR está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2009, 09:23 PM   #553
tneruals
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25
Likes (Received): 0

Article on TAV in Int'l Railway Journal

For those interested, article in English about TAV, in this month's Int'l Railway Journal. Can be read online at:

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sb/irj1209/#/0
tneruals no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2009, 10:01 PM   #554
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

So. There is still room for improvement from Roma to Milano:
- Bologna bypass
- Firenze bypass
- Firenze-Roma to 300 kph (maybe 360?)
- faster accelerating trains

is there any activity on these (I know there are new trains coming)
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2009, 10:45 PM   #555
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Firenze-Roma HSL is limited by the 3 kV DC electrification. Maximum speed can't exceed 250 km/h on most parts (because of curves, sections of tunnels,etc). Apparently some sections are designed for 300 km/h, but surely not for 360.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2009, 10:58 PM   #556
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,140
Likes (Received): 3828

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
So. There is still room for improvement from Roma to Milano:
- Bologna bypass
- Firenze bypass
- Firenze-Roma to 300 kph (maybe 360?)
- faster accelerating trains

is there any activity on these (I know there are new trains coming)
Bologna bypass is U/C and already half-finished. Basically what's missing is the huge underground station, while the tunnels have been built already. 2012 is the most reasonable opening day

Firenze bypass is U/C but only preliminary works have started. The underground bypass will not be built before 2014

Firenze-Roma has gone through some technological updates which make the upgrading at 25KW easier. Speed shall have some room of improvement
Eddard Stark está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2009, 12:35 AM   #557
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,199
Likes (Received): 766

Bologna-Firenze HSL: http://maps.google.ch/maps/ms?ie=UTF...,1.231842&z=10
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2009, 10:32 PM   #558
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
So. There is still room for improvement from Roma to Milano:
- Bologna bypass
- Firenze bypass
- Firenze-Roma to 300 kph (maybe 360?)
- faster accelerating trains

is there any activity on these (I know there are new trains coming)
The Bologna underpass is about 18 km long. Under Bologna station it will have a speed restriction of 80km/h. Outside Bologna, and towards Florence,at at San Ruffillo it will enter into the HSL Bologna -Florence via a flyover negotiable at 100km/h.


On the Florence side the HSL will terminate with a sharp curve and it will enter the Florence Castello Station at speed of 85-95-100 km/h; then the trains will have to slow down for the underground crossing of Florence -Belfiore station at 70-80km/h, after that they will have to negotiate several small curves at 70-100 km/h, then to cross Florence Campo di Marte Station at 100-110km/h , in order to enter into the DD Florence -Rome, at Rovezzano at 110-140 km/h.
So compared to the present situation, the very modest speed increase will be mainly obtained by a geater reliability of the junctions.

About a year go I posted the respective drawings of the two junctions, on this thread .

Here they are re-edited and revisited by Italferr/RFI:
Bologna Junction


http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...3f16f90aRCRD#1

http://www.italferr.it/cms/v/index.j...003f16f90aRCRD

Florence Junction

http://www.italferr.it/cms/v/index.j...003f16f90aRCRD

http://www.italferr.it/cms/v/index.j...003f16f90aRCRD

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...3f16f90aRCRD#2

The projects of these junctions posted in 2008 on this thread were in English language, and also more detaied than these new ones.

Unfortunately, RFI, TI, and Italferr keep shifting (and perhaps absconding into submenus) the technical detail of the projects. Sometimes I wonder why...

http://www.rfi.it/cms/v/index.jsp?vg...3f16f90aRCRD#2

From the previous posts - The original details - From post #303

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...444909&page=16

Last edited by joseph1951; December 12th, 2009 at 10:48 PM.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2009, 12:03 AM   #559
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799



thx
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2009, 02:06 AM   #560
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post


thx
My pleasure, gramercy
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alta velocità

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium