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Old December 13th, 2009, 06:06 AM   #561
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few more days to the Turin-Salerno HSR Line opening
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Old December 21st, 2009, 12:38 PM   #562
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Many thanks to TkMatt of FOL

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Originally Posted by dreaad View Post
una bella foto dalla bo-fi AV

grazie a TkMatt di FOL

These days as elsewhere in Europe the bad weather is putting a strain on the newly opened HSR line. Unfortunately this happened right at the opening of the line.

The train is the ETR600 which is used for "FRECCIARGENTO" services connecting Rome with the north-east of the country (Venice, Padua, Verona)
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Old December 21st, 2009, 12:41 PM   #563
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By the way, I actually used the line before the snow. The train took exactly 3 hours both ways but I realized there is still room for improvement. Unfortunately since the hurban dedicated lines of the HSR in Florence and Bologna are still U/C in these two cities the trains really go at snail pace.

Ayway the average (commercial) speed is now around 200km/h between Rome and Milan which is more than acceptable
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Old December 21st, 2009, 05:49 PM   #564
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As far as I understand, further progress is already in the pipeline? I read somewhere that, based on the finalisation of the project as already planned, a travel time on the non-stop trains from Milan to Rome of 2h45 is envisaged. Also, future upgrades (rolling stock, etc.) are expected to cut the best-time to 2h30.

As for the commercial speed between Milan and Rome, is it uniformly 200 km/h? The effective speed is obviously a bit lower (it would be 520 km in 3 hours if I'm not mistaken?), but based on earlier maps I'd have said at most 200 km/h on the oldest part of the Diretissima (plus a couple of towns...) and somewhat more than 200 km/h on most of Milan-Bologna.
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Old December 21st, 2009, 09:55 PM   #565
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Milano Centrale>Bologna Centrale Km 215 in 65 minutes at avg 198,4 km/h.
Bologna Centrale>Firenze Santa Maria Novella km 79 in 35 minutes (but there are some problems on this branch in order to respect schedule due to wheather conditions and poor performances of the trains) at avg 135,4 Km/h, more often 40 minutes at avg 118,5 km/h.
Firenze Santa Maria Novella>Roma Termini km 261 at avg 186,4 km/h.

Total Km 555. Average 186 km/h.

In Italy we still are in the Third World. Sorry, hans280.

Last edited by LUCAFUSAR; December 21st, 2009 at 10:03 PM.
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Old December 22nd, 2009, 01:39 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by LUCAFUSAR View Post

Milano Centrale>Bologna Centrale Km 215 in 65 minutes at avg 198,4 km/h.
Bologna Centrale>Firenze Santa Maria Novella km 79 in 35 minutes (but there are some problems on this branch in order to respect schedule due to wheather conditions and poor performances of the trains) at avg 135,4 Km/h, more often 40 minutes at avg 118,5 km/h.
Firenze Santa Maria Novella>Roma Termini km 261 at avg 186,4 km/h.

Total Km 555. Average 186 km/h.

In Italy we still are in the Third World. Sorry, hans280.
I think you are excluding the hurban stretches of Rome, Milan, Florence and Bologna.

For example 79km is not the distance between Florence and Bologna but merely the AV line. You have to add several km both in Bologna and Florence. The hurban stretch of Milan is particularly long (20km almost to Melegnano). The hurban stretch of Bologna is more than 10 km, and so it is Florence

The total lenght between Rome and Milan is very close to 600 km, and since the fastest train runs between the cities in 2:59 minutes the commercial speed on average is 200 km/h or something close to it
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Old December 22nd, 2009, 02:08 AM   #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
As far as I understand, further progress is already in the pipeline? I read somewhere that, based on the finalisation of the project as already planned, a travel time on the non-stop trains from Milan to Rome of 2h45 is envisaged. Also, future upgrades (rolling stock, etc.) are expected to cut the best-time to 2h30.

As for the commercial speed between Milan and Rome, is it uniformly 200 km/h? The effective speed is obviously a bit lower (it would be 520 km in 3 hours if I'm not mistaken?), but based on earlier maps I'd have said at most 200 km/h on the oldest part of the Diretissima (plus a couple of towns...) and somewhat more than 200 km/h on most of Milan-Bologna.
As I said the lenght is around 600 km (it shall be 580-590 km)

It's surely achievable 2:45 with what is already U/C. It's probably possible 2:30 with some improvement on the old direttissima (new power line) and new rolling stock. The tender has been opened few weeks ago
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Old December 22nd, 2009, 02:08 PM   #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
I think you are excluding the hurban stretches of Rome, Milan, Florence and Bologna.

For example 79km is not the distance between Florence and Bologna but merely the AV line. You have to add several km both in Bologna and Florence. The hurban stretch of Milan is particularly long (20km almost to Melegnano). The hurban stretch of Bologna is more than 10 km, and so it is Florence

The total lenght between Rome and Milan is very close to 600 km, and since the fastest train runs between the cities in 2:59 minutes the commercial speed on average is 200 km/h or something close to it
O.K., i post the wrong lenght of the Bologna-Firenze AV/AC, which seems to be 98 km long with the urban stretches). So the total lenght between Milan and Rome is 575 km with an avg of 193 km/h, however not so high.

P.S.: The Milan>Bologna HSL is 182 km long, 215 with the urban stretches.
The Direttissima is 253 km long, 261 with the branches Tiburtina-Termini and Rifredi-Santa Maria Novella.
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Old December 22nd, 2009, 02:09 PM   #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
As I said the lenght is around 600 km (it shall be 580-590 km)

It's surely achievable 2:45 with what is already U/C. It's probably possible 2:30 with some improvement on the old direttissima (new power line) and new rolling stock. The tender has been opened few weeks ago
Oremus.
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Old December 25th, 2009, 12:31 AM   #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
1-
As I said the lenght is around 600 km (it shall be 580-590 km)

2-
It's surely achievable 2:45 with what is already U/C. It's probably possible 2:30 with some improvement on the old direttissima (new power line) and new rolling stock. The tender has been opened few weeks ago
1-
Nope. Let's see:
Mllan Bo - Historical Line 219 km.
Bo. Cle - Florence SMN 97 km , from station to station
Florence SMN. Rome-Termini via DD 261.
Total 577 kms, from Milan-Central to Rome-Termini.

The Bolgna Florence HSL is shorter than the historical route. Bologna Central to Rovezano about 100 via historical Route and shorter via Bo-Florence HSL.
The underground crossing of Bologa and Florence will occur at sped which are similar the present surface crossings speeds.
In the Milan urban area the speeds are:
MIlan _ Central to Milan Lambrate = 4 km at max speed of 60 - 65 km/h
Lambrate to Rogoredo 8 km , starting from 60 km/h to 120-130 at Rogoredo.
From Rogoredo to the beginning of the HSL (8 km) from 120-130 km/h to 230 km/h
Fom Melegano to roughly Reggio Emilia: 300km/h
Modena 240 km/h
Lavino from 160- to 105 to 60 km/h at Bologna Central.
Lavino Bologna is a 10km section

Bologna - Central - San Rufillo about 2 km long section. AT San Ruffillo the HSL Blogna -Florence starts and terminates at Firenze Castello where the 10 long km slow section imposes speed restriction at 95-100km/h toward Rovezzano (DD, or where the High Speed Florence-Rome begins).
After the completion of Florence Belfiore AV Station (2014?) on this 10 km long section there will be furter speed restriction to 80 km/h, on the underground Florence AV section.

I don't think that, in the foreseable future, with the INCREASE in the number of HST's on the MIlan-Rome route there will be a chance to improve the commercial speed between Milan and Rome, UNLESS they change type of train and greatly improve the entire, HSL with the costuction of chords and High speed bypasses to avoid the urban areas of Bologna, Florence and Rome.

By now you should now better, .

Merry Christmas to all men of truth......and piece of earth, Eddard dearest.

Last edited by joseph1951; December 25th, 2009 at 10:53 AM.
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Old December 25th, 2009, 10:27 AM   #571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
1-
Nope. Ltes see
Mllan Bo - Historical Line 219 km.
Bo. Cle - Florence SMN 97 km , from station to station
Florence SMN. Rome-Termini via DD 261.
Total 577 km From Milan-Central to RomeTermini.
OK, but in all fairness it's quite good (and quite a progress) for express trains to be going 577 km/h in 3, and eventually 2 1/2, hours. In the spirit of X-mas I think we should congratulate our Italian brethren with this important milestone.

I must confess that La Vie en Rail here in France has been a bit smug about the 4 1/4 hours drive from Milan to Naples, which is quite a notch below what is achieved on similar distances in La Hexagone. But, we've been over this before: the uncompromising tracing around all provincial towns may just be physically and politically feasible in France but it's politically very difficult in federal states and physically very difficult in mountain countries. (I know of only Japan to have invested largely in gallery tunnels to bypass towns, and they have 130 million people to foot the bill....)

Moreover, it occurs to me that two of my past sources of scepticism is finally being pushed out of the way. First, the piecemeal Italian approach to new projects (the line from Rome to Naples completed... without the last 19 km... and the railway station to follow later...) has sometimes driven me up the wall, but now that we can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel (pun intended!) we may all sit down and decide that it was worth the wait. Secondly, the slightly "tired and underpowered" rolling stock may still be here, but as soon as NTV starts biting the butt of FS in 2011 I think there'll be a lot of change. And fast!

So, again, congratulations Italy - and buon natale a tutti!

Last edited by hans280; December 25th, 2009 at 08:36 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2009, 11:22 PM   #572
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Merry Christmas, hans.
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Old December 26th, 2009, 02:10 PM   #573
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Merry Christmast to you as well Hans. We will keep improving don't worry. Year after Year.

Come try it yourself our dear HSR whenever you want.

Eddie
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Old December 26th, 2009, 04:36 PM   #574
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Quote:
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I must confess that La Vie en Rail here in France has been a bit smug about the 4 1/4 hours drive from Milan to Naples, which is quite a notch below what is achieved on similar distances in La Hexagone. But, we've been over this before: the uncompromising tracing around all provincial towns may just be physically and politically feasible in France but it's politically very difficult in federal states and physically very difficult in mountain countries.
I will never get used to the use of "provincial towns" word...is Rome a provincial town to be bypassed en route to Naples?
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Old December 26th, 2009, 06:32 PM   #575
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A good question... with two answers. First, I confess to being twice bitten, first in tiny Denmark, secondly in centralist France. My basic, innermost thinking is (and I know this is anthema to people from federal states such as Italy and Germany) that the nation's capital shall enjoy first priority and people in provincial towns shall shut up and learn toi know their place...

If you need more illustration, think of the way the French always refer to farming produce (butter, honey, whatever...) as being "... de nos provinces". The keyword here is, of course, the possive pronoun "nos", indicating that provincial areas, somehow, belong as pieces of property to the central powers that be.

Secondly, I would remind you that Paris is already bypassed. A (small) number of TGVs run daily between Lille and the Rhone valley without stopping at all in the Paris region. My adoptive country may be centralist, but it's not THAT centralist.
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Old December 26th, 2009, 08:11 PM   #576
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A good question... with two answers. First, I confess to being twice bitten, first in tiny Denmark, secondly in centralist France. My basic, innermost thinking is (and I know this is anthema to people from federal states such as Italy and Germany) that the nation's capital shall enjoy first priority and people in provincial towns shall shut up and learn toi know their place...

If you need more illustration, think of the way the French always refer to farming produce (butter, honey, whatever...) as being "... de nos provinces". The keyword here is, of course, the possive pronoun "nos", indicating that provincial areas, somehow, belong as pieces of property to the central powers that be.

Secondly, I would remind you that Paris is already bypassed. A (small) number of TGVs run daily between Lille and the Rhone valley without stopping at all in the Paris region. My adoptive country may be centralist, but it's not THAT centralist.
What is Milan for you than? it's neither the italian capital nor a provincial town...being far greater in economic importance than Rome. How does it fit in your scheme of things?

I knew about the trains skipping Paris

BTW: I did in the italian forum a comparison between the schedule between Rome and Milan vs Paris and Lyon and I found out there were far more connections between the first than the latter. Guess why. If you guess I will explain why I believe our system will allow a good balance between service and performance compared to the French one.
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Old December 26th, 2009, 08:39 PM   #577
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I cannot argue with you on your basic premise: to "achieve" a similar degree of centralism as in France (Denmark is different: the country is too small to sustain more than one important city) Italy would need punk its industrial structure by issuing Colbert-like threats to companies and banks that they need to "move to the capital or face the undying hostility of the authorities...". This is hardly a good idea, and the notion that no major economic activity should be allowed outside the capital, outside the eye of the monarch, had basically ruined the French economy at the end of Louis XIV's reign. However, the centralism remains with us to this day.

That said, Eddard, we both know that it is Milan, not Rome, that will be the hub of the famous Italian "highspeed T". I think it would be an excellent idea - other things equal - to run a few point-to-point connections like, say, Milan-Napoli or Napoli-Bologna every day without stopping in Rome. The question is, how much time could they save by not stopping in the capital? To my knowledge (?) there is not a full-speed bypass around Rome.

Finally, in response to your "guess why" I'd respond that on my local commuter line between the western suburbs and Paris there are 9 stops between my house and the centre. If they send a large number of fast RERs (stopping only, say, three times each) down the line, then the travelling speed between each suburban station and Paris is greatly enhanced - BUT each individual stations has relatively few departures. Conversely, if every train stops everywhere then (1) a given trajectory is much slower; but (2) each station is serviced by more trains per day. For precisely this reason, most of the trains that service Paris-Marseille don't stop in Lyon (and those that do serve a highspeed station in the suburbs).

I would assume that this is the nub of the difference? Any train from Milan to the south MUST - to Italian minds - stop in Rome? Well, most trains from Paris to the south should - to French minds - most definitely NOT stop in Lyon.

Last edited by hans280; December 26th, 2009 at 08:50 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2009, 08:42 PM   #578
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Over long distances the need of frequent services decreases, especially with the complicated ticket system used in Italy or France. The interest of a train every 15 minutes is low if you can't change your reservation quickly.

And there is probably not enought traffic between Milan and Rome to justify a train every 15 minutes as today. It would be better to offer, say, a basic 30-minutes headway Milan-Bolgona-Florence-Rome-Naples, a 60-minutes Milan-Bologna-Pescara service and a 60-minute Venice-Bologna-Florence-Rome service, plus some extra trains (Turin-Rome no-stop, Bozen Bolzano-Verona-Bologna-Florence-Rome, etc).
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Old December 27th, 2009, 03:20 AM   #579
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Quote:
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I cannot argue with you on your basic premise: to "achieve" a similar degree of centralism as in France (Denmark is different: the country is too small to sustain more than one important city) Italy would need punk its industrial structure by issuing Colbert-like threats to companies and banks that they need to "move to the capital or face the undying hostility of the authorities...". This is hardly a good idea, and the notion that no major economic activity should be allowed outside the capital, outside the eye of the monarch, had basically ruined the French economy at the end of Louis XIV's reign. However, the centralism remains with us to this day.

That said, Eddard, we both know that it is Milan, not Rome, that will be the hub of the famous Italian "highspeed T". I think it would be an excellent idea - other things equal - to run a few point-to-point connections like, say, Milan-Napoli or Napoli-Bologna every day without stopping in Rome. The question is, how much time could they save by not stopping in the capital? To my knowledge (?) there is not a full-speed bypass around Rome.

Finally, in response to your "guess why" I'd respond that on my local commuter line between the western suburbs and Paris there are 9 stops between my house and the centre. If they send a large number of fast RERs (stopping only, say, three times each) down the line, then the travelling speed between each suburban station and Paris is greatly enhanced - BUT each individual stations has relatively few departures. Conversely, if every train stops everywhere then (1) a given trajectory is much slower; but (2) each station is serviced by more trains per day. For precisely this reason, most of the trains that service Paris-Marseille don't stop in Lyon (and those that do serve a highspeed station in the suburbs).

I would assume that this is the nub of the difference? Any train from Milan to the south MUST - to Italian minds - stop in Rome? Well, most trains from Paris to the south should - to French minds - most definitely NOT stop in Lyon.
Correct. in fact there are (roughly) 1 train every hour to lyon from Paris and more than 1 every 30 minutes between Rome and Milan.

And why shall we skip Rome? as you rightly said it's our Capital after all

And aswering Coccodrillo: frequency is essential. I just travelled from Milan to Rome and back by HSR for business. We finished earlier and we jumped on the 1H and 30 minutes earlier train by just changing the ticket at the machines (it's very easy: 2 minutes)

Besides it helps people know that there is a train every 30 minutes between the cities, it helps immensely the success is having among italians.

And the frequency is even higher between Rome and Bologna/Firenze
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Old December 27th, 2009, 03:24 AM   #580
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That said, Eddard, we both know that it is Milan, not Rome, that will be the hub of the famous Italian "highspeed T". I think it would be an excellent idea - other things equal - to run a few point-to-point connections like, say, Milan-Napoli or Napoli-Bologna every day without stopping in Rome. The question is, how much time could they save by not stopping in the capital? To my knowledge (?) there is not a full-speed bypass around Rome.
The reaility is that neither Milan nor Rome will be at the center of the HSR system: Rome is the hub connecting the "frecciargento" and "frecciarossa" services: Rome-Venice, Rome-Verona, Rome-Bari, Rome-Reggio Calabria. On these 4 connections which run partially on the main HSR line there is the HSR main line which is Turin-Salerno

Milan is now the main hub of "traditional" rail in Italy (Milan-Switzerland, Milan-Venice, Milan-Genoa-Ventimiglia/Livorno) together with one of the mandatory stops of the main HSR line (Turin-Salerno).
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