daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 27th, 2009, 03:27 AM   #581
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,149
Likes (Received): 3834

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
And there is probably not enought traffic between Milan and Rome to justify a train every 15 minutes as today. It would be better to offer, say, a basic 30-minutes headway Milan-Bolgona-Florence-Rome-Naples, a 60-minutes Milan-Bologna-Pescara service and a 60-minute Venice-Bologna-Florence-Rome service, plus some extra trains (Turin-Rome no-stop, Bozen Bolzano-Verona-Bologna-Florence-Rome, etc).
Of course it's already like this, roughly, or becoming so.

On the main HSR line (Turin-salerno) there are many different services

1) direct Turin-Milan-Rome
2) direct Milan-Rome
3) Milan-Bologna-Florence-Rome
4) Milan-Bologna-Florence-Rome-Naples-Salerno
5) Milan-Rome-Naples

Between Bologna and Rome we have to also add the "frecciargento"

1) Venice-Bologna-Rome
2) Verona-Bologna-Rome

Between Rome and Naples we have also to add the "frecciargento"

1) Rome-Naples-Reggio-Calabria
and (but they do not stop yet in Naples)
2) Rome-Bari

All these trains add up between Milan and Rome, but they are part of larger offers. the most common ones are the Milan-Bologna-Florence-Rome thought, followed by the Milan-Rome.
Eddard Stark está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 27th, 2009, 09:03 AM   #582
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
The reaility is that neither Milan nor Rome will be at the center of the HSR system: Rome is the hub connecting the "frecciargento" and "frecciarossa" services...Milan is now the main hub of "traditional" rail in Italy.
Sapristi! So, FS is about to repeat the successes of Alitalia? Two hubs in a country with less than 60 million inhabitants. Whew... good luck!

Perhaps the main hub needs not be the capital (in air transport, think Brazil, think Australia...), but I definitely think you need a main hub. And, Eddard, I definitely think its a good idea to have a (limited) number of non-stop point-to-point connections from the major cities into this hub. - Whereever it's located.
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 27th, 2009, 11:42 AM   #583
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Trains are not airplanes, there are a lot of "hub" stations: Milan, Bologna, Florence, Rome, Naples, but also Turin, Verona, Padova, Venice Mestre, ...
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 27th, 2009, 12:46 PM   #584
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,149
Likes (Received): 3834

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Sapristi! So, FS is about to repeat the successes of Alitalia? Two hubs in a country with less than 60 million inhabitants. Whew... good luck!

Perhaps the main hub needs not be the capital (in air transport, think Brazil, think Australia...), but I definitely think you need a main hub. And, Eddard, I definitely think its a good idea to have a (limited) number of non-stop point-to-point connections from the major cities into this hub. - Whereever it's located.
Again it's unfortunately the geography and the economical composition of Italy. There cannot be one hub. There can be several lines which meets

By the way, probably the main rail hub of Italy is....Bologna
Eddard Stark está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2009, 04:24 AM   #585
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
What is Milan for you than? it's neither the italian capital nor a provincial town

1-
If you guess I will explain why I believe our system will allow a good balance between service and performance compared to the French one.

I dont' think so, Eddard.

Nowadays between Milan and Bologna there are only less than 5/6 IC/EScity , which also serves the others - not so small - towns along the line. The IC/EScity cover the whole dstance between Milan and Roma in about 6h 40 minutes, and this is a journey time which is not good for 577kms. The fare for these snail -pace IC or ESCity is between 66 to 44 Euros , in 2nd class.
By the way, on this main route there is an early morning Red Arrow , a sort of "rubbish broom train" picking up the passenger along the historical Milan-Bologna Line which has a travelling time between Milan - Rome of 4h 30 ' which does not justify the full AV price of Euros 109 in first, and 89 in second class.
What about the other town along the Milan -Rome -Axis? Such as Lodi, Piacenza,Parma, Reggio -Emilia, Modena, Arezzo and Orte?

Or those on the Adriatic Line which no longer have direct services wth the nord?
Ex: Bari -Pescara-Ancona-Rimini-Bologna/Milan/Turin/Genoa

Incidentalliy to go from Bari, or Naples, or Reggio or Arezzo, or Florence - Bologna to Turin and Genova (or Paris) you DON'T have to go via Milan, unless you want to lengthen your journey of at least 3 hours.

That is what's happening with concept of the Italian Tav
For Example the new fast connection between Turin - Trieste is as follows:

Turin -Milan via AV
Milan Bologna via AV
Bologna - Mestre with the silver arrow
Mestre - Trieste with the stopping train

That's means a journey time between 6 to 7hrs. at about 129 Euros, for about 642kms.

Via the old route it ws 530km in about 5h 30. (in the '70s)

--------------
Please try here:

http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/npp...aintype=&car=0

Lille Paris
http://www.voyages-sncf.com/billet-t...ultats?hid=BKI

Note that the Florence Rome is 261 km long,it takes between 1h 35 and 1h 45 and costs 44 Euros in 2nd class..

On this route no other viable option is available on early morning .

On the other hand, on the Lille- Paris
TGV solution
I can depart at 7h and it will cost me 17 Euros , journey time: 1h , journey leght 231 km.
Also apart from the TGV there are other solutions available.

PS: could you find on TreniTaglia a journey equivalent to Lille - Europe - Marseille (about 1008 kms) in about 4h 40 min. at less than Euro 25 each way?


How much would be a single ticket Turin-Naples? Perhaps on average Euros 110, in second class and the journey will be made with combination of ES AV + Regional Trains or intecities or EN , with journey times varying from 6h 35' (the fastest) to 10 -12 hours.
It is true. Italy is a long peninsula and, after the advent of the Italian TAV, outside the Milan-Rome AV corridoir one cannot travel anymore.
http://orario.trenitalia.com/b2c/npp...aintype=&car=0



To travel to the other destinations one has to resort to buses or cars or aeroplanes.

Last edited by joseph1951; December 28th, 2009 at 05:52 AM.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2009, 07:54 AM   #586
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

Well, I don't think rail travel in Italy is expensive comparing to other countries. As our TAV system is at par with the French one, there is no reason to charge the old cheap fares that plagues Trenitalia for decade when long distance rail travel in Italy was seen more as an entitlment than a service.

You picked specific routes where travel is now longer than before. You have an afternoon connection Torino - Triest changing in Milano Ce. only with an ES*City ("Frecciabranca") which takes only 5h42.

As for the routes from the Adriatic line, you could travel Lecce-Torino in 9h50, which is like crossing the whole peninsula.

As for the fares, you compare a promotional SNCF fare with a full Trenitalia fare. The fact promotional fares are not displayed in the first window doesn't preclude their existence. It is now far easier to get 30% discount if you buy your tickets with 2 weeks advance.

As for the night trains ("Expresso"), they are almost gone for good. They were slow, money-losing connections which plenty of stops in main routes, requiring, among other things, expensive night staffing of some stations which now are just gate-closed for 5/6 hours, reducing the need for security personel. A lot of people complain beucase those trains were cheap (it was possible to travel Milano-Reggio Calabria for a mere € 53, but it took 14 hours!). Their rolling stock was crap, and they interfere too much with night cargo operations. We don't need night train service in Italy anymore, I'd say - maybe a couple of non-stop services from Bologna to Reggio Calabria so people can still travel all across the country by train without having to sleep overnight in a hotel.

Trenitalia took a wise measure by start axing trains that lose money unless regions step in to subsidize them. And regions are preffering to subsidize regional stop services than long-distance trains, for obvious reasons. There is no reason to provide a cheap services for students returning home for holidays in night trains while Trenitalia is struggling to finance other pure HS or improved conventional track projects like Milano-Venezia, Salerno-Scilla and the expensive but much needed base tunnels of Brennero and Frejus.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2009, 10:47 AM   #587
GENIUS LOCI
No More Italian Mod
 
GENIUS LOCI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Milano
Posts: 35,320
Likes (Received): 11128

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Sapristi! So, FS is about to repeat the successes of Alitalia? Two hubs in a country with less than 60 million inhabitants.
More than 60 mio...
__________________
URBANFILE
GENIUS LOCI no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 31st, 2009, 04:22 AM   #588
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
1-
Well, I don't think rail travel in Italy is expensive comparing to other countries.
You picked specific routes where travel is now longer than before. You have an afternoon connection Torino - Triest changing in Milano Ce. only with an ES*City ("Frecciabranca") which takes only 5h42.

2-

As for the routes from the Adriatic line, you could travel Lecce-Torino in 9h50, which is like crossing the whole peninsula.

As for the fares, you compare a promotional SNCF fare with a full Trenitalia fare. The fact promotional fares are not displayed in the first window doesn't preclude their existence. It is now far easier to get 30% discount if you buy your tickets with 2 weeks advance.

3-

As for the night trains ("Expresso"), they are almost gone for good. They were slow, money-losing connections which plenty of stops in main routes, requiring, among other things, expensive night staffing of some stations which now are just gate-closed for 5/6 hours, reducing the need for security personel. A lot of people complain beucase those trains were cheap (it was possible to travel Milano-Reggio Calabria for a mere € 53, but it took 14 hours!). Their rolling stock was crap, and they interfere too much with night cargo operations. We don't need night train service in Italy anymore, I'd say - maybe a couple of non-stop services from Bologna to Reggio Calabria so people can still travel all across the country by train without having to sleep overnight in a hotel.
..........
Trenitalia took a wise measure by start axing trains that lose money unless
What a nonsense. I'll soon give substantial proof of the contrary.

In the meantime.... I wish you very sweet dreams.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2010, 02:58 PM   #589
bazza_c
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3
Likes (Received): 0

Sorry for the long post – but there are a few discussions that need addressing in the above thread.
ETR500 performance is acceptable. It may not be quite as fast as TGV – acceleration wise – but then it wasn’t -in 12 car configuration – designed for a route with the steep gradients of TGV.

The Milan to Bologna route is very similar in length to TGV Nord Europe. From Milan and Paris , the High-speed lines don’t arrive for around 13km’s. An ETR500 set will reach the start of AV line at Melegnano around the same time a TGV reaches the start of its high-speed line at Gonesse.
Despite its much maligned lack of power compared to TGV, an ETR500 is less than a minute slower to say the 75km mark from start of journey than its TGV cousin. This is based on the two fastest runs recorded to date on both routes.

Remember that Milan Bologna has much shallower gradients (hills) than TGV Nord, so high power to weight ratio is not required by ETR500. You would need aircraft levels of acceleration to make a real difference to journey times – increase energy consumption CO2 gases etc.

And ETR500 would probably be okay on an LGV if the length was reduced to 8 coaches.
In fact if you compare the real life performance of TGV – which I have done – you will see that there can be quite a large variance in time it takes a TGV to arrive at Gonesse from Paris Gare Du Nord – sometimes depending on driving style, en route delays, engineering work and performance of the train due to weather, onboard technical issues etc. These factors can make a bigger difference than the trains acceleration.

A colleague of mine says, “ better to have a bad train with a good driver, than a good train with a bad driver”. People underestimate the importance of a good driver. Sadly the extra safety systems introduced in recent years (KVB, SCMT, etc) mean drivers are less likely to drive close to the limits in case the safety systems intervene.

Here in UK, it was common many years ago for a 200km/h train to be driven on or above 200km/h – as much as 205km/h. Today 195-198 km/h is normal for the same train. Why? Drivers don’t want the safety systems to stop the train for overspeeding. Also the trains have onboard monitoring equipment. A driver can be sacked for driving the train too hard, even if he doesn’t break the speed limits. They download data from the train at the depot and make routine checks on the driver. It is unbelievable to think that some train companies tell drivers not to use maximum acceleration and braking – to conserve energy and running costs – even when the train is running late.

Since we had a few accidents years ago – Ladbroke Grove etc – lower speed limits have been introduced on the approach to big stations. This makes journey times longer.

Acceleration is only an important issue when you have to make many station stops or reductions in speed. The Milan Bologna line does have a serious 240/260km/h reduction close to Modena. In fact after Modena, the ETR500 won’t make 300km/h again before Bologna. If there were two or three stations on the route, then I would be more concerned about the slothful acceleration.

A bigger concern is the fact that ETR500 loses time on the Direttissima compared to ETR 460,470 etc. But then the timetable planners factor this in because they want to create as many train paths available as possible. It is likely that the available paths are based on the slower/ rather than the faster trains.

In practice, I would expect ETR600/485 etc to be a couple of minutes faster over the Direttissima than ETR500, but the timetable planners probably assign a longer journey time. This means the drivers have to indulge in a NUR (No Use Rushing) strategy. This means long stretches of line spent coasting at lower than maximum speed to avoid catching up trains in front and caution signals.

Greater reductions in journey times could come by raising lower speed limits in stations etc. I mean why the long tortuous 30km/h limit in and out of the terminal stations? Increasing to 50 or 60km/h would save more than a few minutes on some of these journeys. The underground stations in Bologna and Florence will improve journey times. The biggest problem is Milan circular lines. 20 minutes to travel from Milan Certosa to Milan Rogoredo?? A high-speed Milan pypass should be a priority.

Extra time added into the timetable for delays is a problem in all countries, but people forget that the frequency of trains has increased. Would you rather be able to jump on a train every half an hour or have a service that is a few minutes quicker but only one train every one or two hrs?

I think most people would rather arrive early or on time than travel on a service that is scheduled to be 5 or 10 minutes faster but is always late!

Once again sorry for the long post. Hope this helps.
bazza_c no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 10th, 2010, 04:11 PM   #590
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

I've said before the ETR500 has the same power/weight ratio as Three Capitals Eurostar (sort of ironic as they are both known as Eurostar!), as long as the ETR500 isn't forced to make many stops then I wouldn't say its massivley underpowered. A little perhaps, but its not much of an issue.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2010, 01:48 AM   #591
LUCAFUSAR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,698
Likes (Received): 231

AGV is already in Italy. These photos are taken in the Trenitalia's Florence-Osmannoro maintenance facility. In the next week many tests will take place on the TAV network with this trainset.











Photos taken from:
http://lnx.645-040.net/sito/
LUCAFUSAR está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 14th, 2010, 01:54 AM   #592
LUCAFUSAR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,698
Likes (Received): 231

Again from the Alstom's family: driver's cab of the ETR600.



P.S.: clean that f*****g glass!
LUCAFUSAR está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2010, 02:25 AM   #593
bazza_c
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3
Likes (Received): 0

Can someone confirm that ETR500 sets cannot use 2 pantographs above 200km/h on direttissima? You mean to say that the driver has to lower one of the pantographs on the train if he wants to go faster than 200km/h leaving it powered by only 1 4400Kw power car?

I also understand that the same (only 1 pantograph to be used) applies above 160km/h on Turin- Milano Venezia, and Milano - Bologna - Firenze (non TAV lines) - and 130km/h on all other FS lines. Is this due to the movement of the overhead wire, or simply because the 3KV DC overhead cannot provide enough power for the 8800Kw of two power cars?
Does anyone know if the same restriction applies to TGV-R sets between Modane and Milano under 3KV DC?
bazza_c no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #594
sotavento
Registered user
 
sotavento's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,419
Likes (Received): 322

Quote:
Originally Posted by bazza_c View Post
Can someone confirm that ETR500 sets cannot use 2 pantographs above 200km/h on direttissima? You mean to say that the driver has to lower one of the pantographs on the train if he wants to go faster than 200km/h leaving it powered by only 1 4400Kw power car?

I also understand that the same (only 1 pantograph to be used) applies above 160km/h on Turin- Milano Venezia, and Milano - Bologna - Firenze (non TAV lines) - and 130km/h on all other FS lines. Is this due to the movement of the overhead wire, or simply because the 3KV DC overhead cannot provide enough power for the 8800Kw of two power cars?
Does anyone know if the same restriction applies to TGV-R sets between Modane and Milano under 3KV DC?
Reason 2 ... not enough juice to feed both powercars at the same time in the old direttissima.
__________________
"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
— Eça
sotavento no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2010, 03:10 PM   #595
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by bazza_c View Post
Can someone confirm that ETR500 sets cannot use 2 pantographs above 200km/h on direttissima? You mean to say that the driver has to lower one of the pantographs on the train if he wants to go faster than 200km/h leaving it powered by only 1 4400Kw power car?

I also understand that the same (only 1 pantograph to be used) applies above 160km/h on Turin- Milano Venezia, and Milano - Bologna - Firenze (non TAV lines) - and 130km/h on all other FS lines. Is this due to the movement of the overhead wire, or simply because the 3KV DC overhead cannot provide enough power for the 8800Kw of two power cars?
Does anyone know if the same restriction applies to TGV-R sets between Modane and Milano under 3KV DC?
Under 3000 volt dc the ETR500 speed limitation have been known since the early nineties. RFI has strict rules on this matter. Over the speed you have mentioned the two pantographs trigger dangerous ondulatory movements of the catenary.

Therefore only one patographs is used, and this means that only one locomotive is active, and the train runs only on half power (4,400kW).

I discussed this problem earlier in this forum.

To easily and quickly reach the speed of 250km/h (as in the case of the Roma-Florence HSL) one needs at least 12,5 kW/t . On heavy formation, and with one locomotive active , the ETR500 develps only about 7.5kW/t - 8kW/ton. Therefore it can reach the top speed allowed on the Florence-Rome HSL only after a long and fairly slow acceleration.

For the Florence -Rome HSL the ETR500 is the wrong type of train. This has been known since the early stage (1990s) when the ETR500 was still a prototype. However, originally this train was planned only to operate on 3kV dc with a revenue top speed of 250-270km/h, and with a testing speed of 300km/h.

The second series of the ETR500 is dual tension and offer ssatisfactory performance under 25kW ac . Its draw-backs are that the train is too heavy. A reduced car formation, from 12 to 8, would partially solve this problem.

A lighter train, capabale of drawing up to 6,000 W only with pantograph active, is more suited that the ETR500 under 3kV dc HS catenary, such as the one used in the Florence -Rome HSL.


To know more:

http://www.amicitreni.it/articoli/etr500y.htm

http://www.google.it/search?hl=it&q=...meta=&aq=f&oq=


===========

The TGV has a different configuration but, in Italy , its speed limitation are due to RFI's regulations.

In Italy, under the 3000 volt dc the TGV has a speed limit of 160km/h. This is due to the fact tha this train does not have the train control system present in Italy.

Last edited by joseph1951; January 16th, 2010 at 03:23 PM.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2010, 06:20 PM   #596
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,534
Likes (Received): 21241

... which explains how TGVs are not speed-competitive in the Milano-Paris route even after the oppening of Torino-Milano HSL. They take safety very serious in Italy.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2010, 07:39 PM   #597
dreaad
Torino è elettronica!!
 
dreaad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: TORINO[X]
Posts: 24,235
Likes (Received): 2869

TGVs cannot use the HSL turin-milan because SNCF doesn't want to install the ERTMS signalling equipment. they'll continue to run on the historical line (which has a speed limit of 160 km/h for all trains).
maybe, starting from June 2010, trenitalia will launch a new direct service (1 couple a day) from milan-turin-paris using the ETR500. they'll use the new HSL (milan-paris 6h30')
__________________
I TO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBiL2VLPmFo

«Torino è la città italiana in cui negli ultimi anni si è costruito di più, un processo che riguarda tutte le città post-industriali, destinate a diventare città del divertimento. Il modello, anche se non esplicito, è Las Vegas» (Giuseppe Culicchia)
dreaad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2010, 09:30 PM   #598
LUCAFUSAR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,698
Likes (Received): 231

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
... which explains how TGVs are not speed-competitive in the Milano-Paris route even after the oppening of Torino-Milano HSL. They take safety very serious in Italy.
Absolutely it's not a security matter. It's because Trenitalia and SNCF can't stand each other and they are in big clash.
LUCAFUSAR está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2010, 03:31 AM   #599
eminencia
112
 
eminencia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BA
Posts: 685
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by LUCAFUSAR View Post
Absolutely it's not a security matter. It's because Trenitalia and SNCF can't stand each other and they are in big clash.
Definitely true, the similar example can be seen in the case of Slovenian Pendolino served EC Casanova which has been discontinued due to Italian law obstructions and now Slovenian ministry of transport is succesfuly blocking the negotiations of Trieste-Ljubljana HSR trying to negotiate better position for its growing Port of Koper.
eminencia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2010, 03:53 PM   #600
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by eminencia View Post
...and now Slovenian ministry of transport is succesfuly blocking the negotiations of Trieste-Ljubljana HSR trying to negotiate better position for its growing Port of Koper.
Very good idea!
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alta velocità

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium