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Old January 17th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #601
LUCAFUSAR
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Originally Posted by eminencia View Post
Definitely true, the similar example can be seen in the case of Slovenian Pendolino served EC Casanova which has been discontinued due to Italian law obstructions and now Slovenian ministry of transport is succesfuly blocking the negotiations of Trieste-Ljubljana HSR trying to negotiate better position for its growing Port of Koper.
Trenidiotaglia is in big clash with DB and OeBB, also.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:27 AM   #602
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Trenidiotaglia is in big clash with DB and OeBB, also.
In the case of DB, the clash has a good reason. DB doesn't want to open much of its "improved" tracks where ICE trains run to foreing operators claiming that those are not truly HSR subject to open competition in 2011. At the same time, they started operating an international train service from Italy to Munchen and wanted Trenitalia to advertise and sell tickets of this service for them, for free! It's like asking your biggest competitor to give you a hand so you can set a foothold on its biggest market.

But on defense of Trenitalia I must say: they announce DB trains both in LCD departures monitors, they announce the trains in the sound system, and they publish arrivals and departures of "hostile" DB trains in the respective printed boards in stations. Things Trenitalia don't do (and are no longer obliged to): selling tickets and announcing the service on its website. DB could pay for floor space and install their own ticket machines if it wanted.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 11:03 AM   #603
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That's not the point. Trenidiot has cut also all the SZ services. And it's not due to the competition on the HSR market for sure.

Last edited by LUCAFUSAR; January 18th, 2010 at 11:18 AM.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 11:09 AM   #604
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What do you mean by SZ services?
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Old January 18th, 2010, 11:17 AM   #605
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Slovenske Zeleznice (Slovenian Railways) with SZ ICS ETR310.

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Old January 18th, 2010, 11:19 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In the case of DB, the clash has a good reason. DB doesn't want to open much of its "improved" tracks where ICE trains run to foreing operators claiming that those are not truly HSR subject to open competition in 2011. At the same time, they started operating an international train service from Italy to Munchen and wanted Trenitalia to advertise and sell tickets of this service for them, for free! It's like asking your biggest competitor to give you a hand so you can set a foothold on its biggest market.

But on defense of Trenitalia I must say: they announce DB trains both in LCD departures monitors, they announce the trains in the sound system, and they publish arrivals and departures of "hostile" DB trains in the respective printed boards in stations. Things Trenitalia don't do (and are no longer obliged to): selling tickets and announcing the service on its website. DB could pay for floor space and install their own ticket machines if it wanted.
DB trains on the Brenner line are not in competition wit Trenitalia's trains and are now run by DB/ÖBB because Trenitalia is trying to eliminate all international trains and foreign's companies are trying to solve this problems (just think about ÖBB buses between Villach and Venice).
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Old January 18th, 2010, 11:20 AM   #607
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Fixed.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:37 PM   #608
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What do you mean by SZ services?
A few years ago it was still possibleto travel from Trieste to Slovenia by train. When I travelled on that route the trains terminated at Villa Opicina, where you could transfer to a bus to the main station (had I know then about the Tram I would have taken that though).

All daytime trains are gone now, because of Trenitalia's refusal to cooperate.

DB and OeBB carry a lot more clout, and can thus force themselves on the Italian network, and even can afford to run the services at a loss for a few years. SZ is not in that position.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:37 PM   #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
DB trains on the Brenner line are not in competition wit Trenitalia's trains and are now run by DB/ÖBB because Trenitalia is trying to eliminate all international trains and foreign's companies are trying to solve this problems (just think about ÖBB buses between Villach and Venice).
I tried the new service by DB/ÖBB to go from Milan to Innsbruck.
Is that true Trenitalia forced them to operate from Milan Garibaldi Railway Station instead of Milan Centrale?

Because I don't see any reason not to start services from the main Milanese station...
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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:41 PM   #610
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Old January 18th, 2010, 01:22 PM   #611
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In the case of DB, the clash has a good reason. DB doesn't want to open much of its "improved" tracks where ICE trains run to foreing operators claiming that those are not truly HSR subject to open competition in 2011.
Actually the whole network is open to full competition, not just the HSR lines. Only opening the HSR lines to competition is rather pointless, as you can't run trains that way.
There are foreign operators operating on DB tracks, so it must be possible. There probably an order of magnitude more trainkm run by foreign operators on DB-Netz track than there are foreign trainkm run on RFI track.

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At the same time, they started operating an international train service from Italy to Munchen and wanted Trenitalia to advertise and sell tickets of this service for them, for free! It's like asking your biggest competitor to give you a hand so you can set a foothold on its biggest market.
You don't seem to know very well how international train travel and ticketing works in Europe.
It used to be that an international train was always run by the local company. So a train for example Köln to Brussel was a german train as far as the border and a Belgian train beyond that, even when the train was entirely composed of DB stock. I remember a group of American backpackers boarding the train to Oostende in Köln with a "German Rail Pass", under the asumption that since it said "DB" on the cars they could travel on it at no extra charge. Where they disappointed when the conductor passed after the border and wanted them to pay up...
For train tickets every railwaycompany sends every year a big table of all the major "sections" on their network, and the TCV price for these sections. Trenitalia will for example send a big list to each operator in Europe (often they are the last one to do this...) and every operator in Europe sends a big list to Trenitalia. This list contains a price for each section. When now someone goes to the ticketoffice in Köln and wants to buy for example a ticket from Milano to Napoli the ticket clerk will be able to sell him such a ticket. I remember when international tickets were still written out by hand, and have seen how the ticket clerk would look up all the sections in the big TCV tables, and calculate the total. Nowadays a computer does this.
Railways have thus always sold tickets for each other's trains. They have always done this at no extra charge. This has not changed. The TCV tarif still exists. The CIV rules still exist.

What has changed now is that in stead of an international train being a joint venture between two or more companies more and more train are either run by seperate entities (like Thalys or Eurostar) or run solely under the responsability of one railway. That means that in stead of dividing both costs and revenue proprotionally between participating railways one railway is responsible for all costs and revenue. This does imply tickets valid on only a particular train, and no longer just on all trains on a route, as it was before.

So they procedures the rules a bit. In adition to the TCV tables a "market price catalog" was created, contaiing all the codes and prices for trains where you need an all-in, train specific title. Trenitalia massively annoyed it's European partners when a few years ago it moved all its long distance trains in to the "market price catalogue", thus making it a lot harder for other train companies to sell tickets on the Italian network. It then annoyed other operators even further by consistently being late at delivering the updated catalog.

Quote:
But on defense of Trenitalia I must say: they announce DB trains both in LCD departures monitors, they announce the trains in the sound system, and they publish arrivals and departures of "hostile" DB trains in the respective printed boards in stations. Things Trenitalia don't do (and are no longer obliged to): selling tickets and announcing the service on its website. DB could pay for floor space and install their own ticket machines if it wanted.
That they publish and announce the the departure times is not a matter of goodwill. They are required to do so by law. That they don't sell tickets for these trains is just plain stupidity. After all, DB, OeBB do also sell tickets for Trenitalia. But Trenitalia has decided to piss off everyone apparently. But I asume that DB/OeBB will gladly sell you a ticket on board.

The reason why DB-OeBB took the Brenner traffic in their own hand is that they wanted to run more and better trains, to curb the loss of passengers in recent years. Trenitalia didn't want to cooperate. So they in stead decided to cooperate with FNM. The result is more and better trains on the route. The passenger wins.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 01:30 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Please, let me read at least a couple of words...
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Old January 18th, 2010, 01:38 PM   #613
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AGV is already in Italy.
Is it the prototype train, or has Alsthom already started delivering units for NTV?
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Old January 18th, 2010, 01:50 PM   #614
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Only the prototype train.

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Originally Posted by TohrAlkimista View Post
I tried the new service by DB/ÖBB to go from Milan to Innsbruck.
Is that true Trenitalia forced them to operate from Milan Garibaldi Railway Station instead of Milan Centrale?

Because I don't see any reason not to start services from the main Milanese station...
I can suggest two reason of the choice to use Garibaldi instead of Centrale station in Milan. The first is that Trenitalia is trying to destroy inetrnational trains and other competing companies (NTV, as example, but also doing the maximum to avoid another company run local trains: Piemonte region is searching another operator for its local lines, but Trenitalia is making this impossible). A second reason may be that the locomotives used on these trains aren't approved for more than 140 km/h, and thus can't use the 7.05 slot from Milano Centrale. Considering that a Taurus locomotive reached 357 km/h, it's strange that in italy this is limited to 140 km/h...I would not be surprised if this was another system to boycott other companies.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 02:10 PM   #615
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As I said before, my opinion is that Trenitalia is trying to boycott the new service.

I tried it and I find it really enjoyable with a pretty high standard of comfort.
For sure better than the usual combo I do: Milan Centrale - Verona P.ta Nuova routing (that is ok, with an EuroCity service), then train change with a shitty Regionale from Verona P.ta Nuova - Innsbruck if I'm lucky, otherwise I have to change again in Bozen or Brenner.

The point is Garibaldi station is not that attractive, since I need to get first a train from Pavia (a city some 30 km south of Milan) to Milan and the connections from Pavia are way better over Milano Centrale, no way.

P.S.
We need that fu*kin' S-service.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 04:37 PM   #616
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I can suggest two reason of the choice to use Garibaldi instead of Centrale station in Milan. The first is that Trenitalia is trying to destroy inetrnational trains and other competing companies (NTV, as example, but also doing the maximum to avoid another company run local trains: Piemonte region is searching another operator for its local lines, but Trenitalia is making this impossible). I would not be surprised if this was another system to boycott other companies.
The situation with Piemonte region has a few more complexities: Piemonte is the only region that has not signed new multi-year contracts with Trenitalia for its regional service. Every other region has, and Trenitalia is angry because Piemonte, for the last years, was one of the most complaining regions against Trenitalia's policies like sutting down low-speed mountain lines, cutting regional serice with neighboor France, cutting long-distance night-trains that were disproportionally more used by people living in the farer regions of the country etc.

Furthermore, FNM (Le Nord) managed to get the Ministry of Transportation in the dispute because Piemonte "regional" trains would connect cities in Lombardia too, in a loop route in and out of Milano, and would be impossible to assure that no passenger in Lombardia boards a train in Milano and hops off in Novara, for instance. The costs for the new Pioment operator to segregate tiketing and platforms to ensure no intra-Lombardia transport would occur is just unberable and completely unfeasible.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 04:47 PM   #617
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The costs for the new Pioment operator to segregate tiketing and platforms to ensure no intra-Lombardia transport would occur is just unberable and completely unfeasible.
Why would segregation be needed? Piedmont would not be the first region (nor would it be the last) to hand over regional services to another operator. So far this has not lead to segregated platforms or ticketing anywhere.
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Old January 19th, 2010, 11:35 PM   #618
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I'm afraid you miss the point: Lombardia doesn't want Piemonte to put on tender regional services that runs between Milano (in Lombardia) and Torino (in Piemonte). Essentialy, Lombardia doesn't want to lose revenue to a private operator that could carry passengers within its territory. Running trains only within Piemonte's borders is not really an option, far many people living between the two metropolis need to travel across regional borders.
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Old January 20th, 2010, 10:04 AM   #619
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I'm afraid you miss the point: Lombardia doesn't want Piemonte to put on tender regional services that runs between Milano (in Lombardia) and Torino (in Piemonte). Essentialy, Lombardia doesn't want to lose revenue to a private operator that could carry passengers within its territory. Running trains only within Piemonte's borders is not really an option, far many people living between the two metropolis need to travel across regional borders.
Neither Lombardia nor Piedmont have any revenue from railways, so neither stand to lose revenue here. Regional services need subsidies, and Piedmont and Lombardia will have to aggree, or Piedmont will go alone.
If Piedmont managed to get a private carrier to operate services between Milano and Torino, and chooses to subsidise it alone, than it would not be a financial loss to Lombardia, but a gain, as inhabitants of Lombardia would profit from a service financed by the taxpayers in Piedmont. That would not be a financial loss to Lombardia, however Piedmont most likely wouldn't want to go it alone though.
Ofcourse the service could be organized as it is everywhere else where an administrative border crosse a line. Both halves are given to different operators, which then set up a joint service. Or the same operator wins the tender in both regions...
But even if there were a "hostile" Piedmontese operator operating in Lombardia it still would not require separate platforms, as you suggested.
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Old January 20th, 2010, 12:19 PM   #620
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If Piedmont managed to get a private carrier to operate services between Milano and Torino, and chooses to subsidise it alone, than it would not be a financial loss to Lombardia, but a gain, as inhabitants of Lombardia would profit from a service financed by the taxpayers in Piedmont. That would not be a financial loss to Lombardia, however Piedmont most likely wouldn't want to go it alone though.
Ofcourse the service could be organized as it is everywhere else where an administrative border crosse a line. Both halves are given to different operators, which then set up a joint service. Or the same operator wins the tender in both regions...
Lombardia already has is "regional" railways, Le Nord (a strange entity whose major shareholder is Lombardia). Le Nord would face competition with this new operator on routes like Rho-Milano or Pavia-Novara.

Just check the proposed route here on the website of the main contender for such service: http://www.arenaways.com/percorsi.html

Le Nord perceives Arenaways as a political threat to its clout over Trenitalia, to say so. Then raw politics kicks in, and no one knows the outcome.
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