ITALY | High Speed Rail

[Coccodrillo]

It is a 200 km/h mixed passenger-freight line, replacing the existing single track line.

[Shezan]

even the Foggia-Bari line is U/C ?!?

[elfabyanos]

Originally Posted by Coccodrillo

It is a 200 km/h mixed passenger-freight line, replacing the existing single track line.

Excellent thanks.

[Coccodrillo]

Originally Posted by Shezan

even the Foggia-Bari line is U/C ?!?

No it isn't.

Only Torino-Milano-Bologna-Firenze and Roma-Napoli-Salerno will be really high speed lines (300 km/h) electrified with 25 kV AC. Even if it is planned to use these lines also by freight trains, I think they will used mainly or only by HS trains.

As I have already said Firenze-Roma is a 250 km/h mixed traffic line electrified in 3 kV DC.

The parts shown in green of the Palermo-Messina line are not really HS but mixed traffic 200 km/h lines electrified in 3 kV DC.

Napoli-Foggia-Bari is not under construction, and will be partly a 200 km/h mixed traffic line and partly will be an upgrade of existing lines. I don't know much about this project.

The yellow lines in project are being planned as mixed traffic lines, some of them in 3 kV DC, some in 25 kV AC.

[eomer]

Originally Posted by Coccodrillo

No it isn't.

Only Torino-Milano-Bologna-Firenze and Roma-Napoli-Salerno will be really high speed lines (300 km/h) electrified with 25 kV AC. Even if it is planned to use these lines also by freight trains, I think they will used mainly or only by HS trains.

Is the Milano-Bologna-Firenze section still under construction or is it in service ? The forecast for oppening was 2007: I think it should be oppened now.

Originally Posted by Coccodrillo

As I have already said Firenze-Roma is a 250 km/h mixed traffic line electrified in 3 kV DC.

According to UIC, "High Speed" starts at 250 km/h: Firenze-Roma is already an HSR.

[GENIUS LOCI]

Originally Posted by eomer

Is the Milano-Bologna-Firenze section still under construction or is it in service ? The forecast for oppening was 2007: I think it should be oppened now.

No
Milano-Bologna stretch is forecasted to be opened in December 2008

[windawinda77]

whay the italian high speed development is going so slowly?, with the size and saphe of italy not many lines are nedded to conect properly all italians regions...may be with the hisgh speed km that have been already opened in spain would be enough...is it more difficoult to built high speed trains in italy than in spain?

[Federicoft]

It is, but the main problem is that Italy is not a country of authoritative decisions. Everything should be debated, approved and revised by the greatest number of people possibile, seeking for a compromise from all the parts involved.
For instance, to avoid Nimbys, every municipality where the TAV passes thru was granted with schools, parks, libraries and other projects build at contractor's expenses.

All this has lifted times and costs.

Having said that, there are much more orographic difficulties compared to France or Spain as well.

[Federicoft]

Count-down at Milan Central station for the opening of Milan-Bologna TAV, expected on December 2008.

[tneruals]

NTV, The First Italian Private Railway Operator, Chooses Alstom for the Supply and Maintenance Of 25 AGV Trains

LEVALLOIS-PERRET, France--(Business Wire)--Regulatory News:

The Italian train operator Nuovo Trasporto Viaggiatori (NTV) has
ordered from Alstom (Paris:ALO) 25 of its brand new very high speed
AGV1 trains for EUR 650 million. The contract covers the maintenance
of the trains for a 30 year period which is not included in this
amount. It also foresees an option for a further 10 trains.

The signing of this contract - which follows the Italian Transport
Ministry's agreement to award NTV a Railway Company licence and
authorisation to perform passenger service in Italy - marks the
beginning of the implementation phase of NTV's project that will
enable the private operator to start service on the new high speed
lines early 2011.

NTV, created in December 2006 by Italian entrepreneurs Luca
Cordero di Montezemolo, Diego Della Valle, Gianni Punzo and Giuseppe
Sciarrone, will operate in the very high speed railway market in
Italy.

NTV and Alstom will present the details of this contract during a
press conference to be held on 7 February 2008 in Rome.

NTV will operate the AGV on the Italian high speed network at a
speed of 300 kph. NTV's trains will comprise 11 coaches and will offer
around 500 seats. The AGV is built according to the most recent
European standards of interoperability and follows the European and
Italian regulations for the safeguard of environment and safety. Its
traction system played a key role in the performance achieved on 3
April 2007 by the train that set the new world rail speed record and
allows the AGV to operate at a speed of up to 360 kph.

Alstom has already manufactured 70% of the trains worldwide
currently operated at over 300 kph. The Group's very high speed
activity is in constant development, thanks to its unrivalled
experience and technological lead. Since the launch of the first TGV2
in 1981, Alstom has sold nearly 650 very high speed trains throughout
the world. They have covered over 2.8 billion kilometres (6,500 times
the distance between the Earth and the Moon) and carried 1.6 billion
passengers. Their commercial speed has progressed from 260 kph to 320
kph, and they have set three world rail speed records: 380 kph in
1981, 515.3 kph in 1990 and 574.8 kph in 2007.

1 Automotrice Grande Vitesse. AGV is a registered trademark of
Alstom

2 TGV is a registered trademark of the SNCF

About Alstom Transport

A promoter of sustainable mobility, Alstom Transport develops and
markets the most complete range of systems, equipment and service on
the railway market. With operations in over 60 countries and a
workforce of 26,000 employees, Alstom Transport's strength lies in its
ability to manage entire transport systems, encompassing rolling
stock, signalling, infrastructure and services, and offer "turnkey"
solutions. Generating sales of EUR 5.3 billion, the company is the
world number one in the sector and is the leader in the very high
speed market.

About NTV

NTV was founded in December 2006 by Luca Cordero di Montezemolo,
Diego Della Valle, Gianni Punzo e Giuseppe Sciarrone. In January 2008
Banca Intesa San Paolo became part of the company with a 20% share.
NTV's mission is to plan, organise and operate passengers services on
the high speed lines. The company, by aiming to offer high quality
services at competitive prices, wants to contribute to the growth of
the Italian railway system and to the valorisation of the new high
speed lines, which are fundamental for the modernisation of the
Italian transport system.

Websites www.alstom.com, www.transport.alstom.com


Copyright Business Wire 2008

[Xabi]

Really nice stations. First one looks Zaha Hadid's.

[Thorin]

Originally Posted by Xabi

First one looks Zaha Hadid's.

It is.

[Paulo2004]

Nice, cool look.

[RSG]

Very nice. I like that HSR requires a certain design of station to complement the train design.

[TohrAlkimista]

Yesterday was broken the previous speed record on the italian railways network, the ETRY500rf reached 355 km/h on the Milan-Bologna route, during a test. The line will be opened on the 15th December 2008.

[tneruals]

Just to add some clarity: the record was reached by a conventional, non-modified ETR500 high-speed train.

[Shezan]

thanks for the reply, Coccodrillo

[joseph1951]

Originally Posted by tneruals

The ETR 500 top speed between Rome and Naples and between Turin and Novara (high-speed line to be completed to Milan) is 300 km/h and not 250 km/h as you mentioned. If average speeds are not very high it is because urban "penetrations" into Naples, Milan and Rome have yet to be completed. Despite the numerous construction delays, the Rome-Naples high speed line was the first in Europe to successfully implement the use of the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS) of second level whereas elsewhere implementation has proven to be very difficult.

Not quite so. The top speed of the new Italian High Speed lines is 300Km/h, but initally the commercial speed will be only of 250Km/h, as per official data published by TAV, Trenitalia, and Italferr. AS a matter of fact, the new titlting which will use the new HSL will have a max top speed of 250 km/h.

The ETR500 in a 12 car formation + 2 locos has an output of only 8800Kw under 25Kv wire and weigh aboutt 664 tons. That is about 13.75Kw/ton, compared to the TGV power to weight ratio of about 22kw/ton.

On 3,000, volt dc, above 200km/h, the ETR500 has only half power (i.e.: 6.87/kW/ton).

On The DD (Florence Rome High Speed) it runs at a 220km/h, with a top speed of 250 km/h in case of late runnings.

The ETR 500 on 3000 volt dc, above 200km/h mark can only use one loco (i.e. 4400KW).

With a power to ratio of only 13,7kw/ton on th HSL under 25kv.ac the ETR500 can reach 300km/h after a fairly slow and long accerelation. However a consist of ETR500 of 8 carriages and 2 locos offers far better perfomance than a consits of 12 cars + 2 locos



The ETR500,which is a conventional train, such as the ICE 1, with top and tail locos, is not ideal for the italian network.

The Etr200 of 1939 was a total succes. The Etr200, an d the Etr250 were articulated trains with power distribution.
Furthermore, any TGV of the latest generations can be regeared in about 3 and 1/2 minutes, by adjusting the software.

Once regeared, the TGV can draw 17600Kw for about 20 minutes. That is over 44kw/ton.

A regeared TGV, such as the TGV which did the non-stop run Calais Frethun Marseille-Saint Charles run (1.067 km) in 3 hours 29 minutes and 29 seconds) A regeared standard TGV can accelerate from 0 km/h to 300 km/h in less tha three minutes. Indde on the Lyon- Marseille section the TGV do easily exced 330km/h on a daily basis.



Furthermore, the new French High Speed Lines have a double wiring cable of 2x 25kw, and the ondulatory movements of the (thick) catenary starts at about 620Km/h.

Thet new Italian high speed lines, although they use the French method, are made with only one cable and the ondulatory movements of the thin and elastic catenary starts at about 370Km/h.

Therefore, if you push an ETR500, in a reduced formation, let say two locos + 3 cars, at speed above the critical speed in which ondulatoy movements of the catenary occur (about 370Km/h), you will run the risk of damaging or even pulling down the catenary.

The technical department of engineering of the defunct Ferrovie dello Stato (FS) did not want the ETR500.

The ETR500 was rejected by senior FS enginners since the very beginning, when it was still on the drawing board.

The ETR500 was built for political reason. The seating is also anti-ergonomic.

It is the worst High speed train (sic!!!) in Europe.

It is quite significant that NTV, the new High speed Italian private operator, has chosen the AGV.

I was in Italy a few months ago. Much to my regret, I have to say that, the Italian railway system has progressively deteriorated since the late 1990, on all major lines.

About 2/3 of the Milan-Turin are completed (85km) on al total lenght of 153km. When fully completed the Turin-Milan HSL will be 125km long with end sections on the historical line. Yet , in 1990 the Pendolino tilting train was doing Milan Turin (153 Km) in 1h 18 minutes, on the old slow line.

Now The ETR500 cover the same distance, but travellng for 85 km on th new High speed line in 1h and 22 minutes!

Furthermore, the italian cross-overs from the historical (slow speed ) lines to the HSL lines, and viceversa, are taken at speed of 20-40 miles. The French crossovers (flyovers) can be negotiated between 220km/h and 260km/h.

In the future, trains non stopping at Bologna and at Florence, will transit through Bologna at 80-100km/h (underground High speed station), and through Firenze High Speed station at 70-80 (YES, SEVENTY-EIGHTY ) Km/h.

When the Milan-Rome HSL will be completed (but when? in the year 2010?) and fully operational, a non-stop Milan-Rome will cover the 567 between the two cities in 3 hours, at best, at an average speed of 189 km/h.

Now, the French best timing, on the new section of East HSL is about 278. km/h, between Gare de l'Est and the Gare TGV Champagne (if I remember correctly), covering from stat to stop 179km in about 36 -38 minutes.

[Trainman Dave]

Thank you Joseph1951 for that fascinating post.

Given the content of your post, I have to assume that none of this information is available on the WWW. Is it possible for you cite the titles of paper documents which might be in a Library?

I have been curious for some time about the relatively low timetable speeds for the ETR-500 services. Now I am beginning to understand.

[tneruals]

Recent information released by Trenitalia/RFI says the top commercial speed on the Milan-Bologna line will be 300km/h, except for a section of the line in Modena province with tighter curve radii where speed will be limited to 240km/h. Even the long span bridge over the Po River has been built for speeds up to 300 km/h and during a recent test an ETR500 crossed that bridge at over 330 km/h. Yes, the last segment of the Turin-Milan line has yet to be completed, but trains already reach 300 km/h between Turin and Novara (I've taken that train and it does go up to 300 km/h. Some people have posted videos on youtube with GPS monitoring showing that such speed is actually reached). The same speed is reached on the HST line between Rome and Naples.

The ETR500 may not be fantastic train, but it has its good sides too. It rides more smoothly on new HST lines than the TGV (which I've also taken). It also has a nice design which I personally find much more appealing than that of the TGV.

I agree that Trenitalia services have deteriorated in recent years, so I think competition from NTV and its sleeker AGV trainsets will be more than welcome.

Originally Posted by joseph1951

Not quite so. The top speed of the new Italian High Speed lines is 300Km/h, but the commercial speed will be only of 250Km/h, as per official data published by TAV, Trenitalia, and Italferr.

The ETR500 in a 12 car formation + 2 locos has an output of only 8800Kw under 25Kv wire and weigh aboutt 660 tons. That is about 13.7Kw/ton, compared to the TGV power to weight ratio of about 22kw/ton.

On 3,000 volt dc the ETR500 has only half power (i.e.: 6.85/Kw/ton).

On The DD (Florence Rome High Speed) it runs at a 220km/h, with top speed in case of late runnings of 250km/h.

Furthermore, any TGV of the latest generations can be regeared in about 3 and 1/2 minutes, by adjusting the software.

Once regeared, the TGV can draw 17600Kw for about 50 minutes. That is over 44kw/ton.

The ETR 500 on 3000 volt dc can only use one loco (i.e. 4400KW).

With a power to ratio of only 13,7kw/ton on th HSL under 25kv.ac the ETR500can reach 300km/h after a very slow and long accerelation of about 12 minutes.
A regeared TGV, such as the TGV which did the non-stop run Calais Frethun Marseille-Saint Charles run (1.067 km) in 3 hours 29 minutes and 29 seconds) A regeared standard TGV can accelerate from 0 km/h to 300 km/h in less tha three minutes. Indde on the Lyon- Marseille section the TGV do easily exced 330km/h on a daily basis.

The ETR500,which is a conventional train, such as the ICE 1, with top and tail locos, was a total disaster.

The Etr200 of 1939 was a total succes. The Etr200, an d the Etr250 were articulated trains with power distribution.

Furthermore, the new French High Speed Lines have a double wiring cable of 2x 25kw, and the ondulatory movements of the (thick) catenary starts at about 620Km/h.

Thet new Italian high speed lines, although they use the French method, are made with only one cable and the ondulatory movements of the thin and elastic catenary starts at about 370Km/h.

Therefore, if you push an ETR500, in a reduced formation, let say two locos + 3 cars, at speed above the critical speed in which ondulatoy movements of the catenary occur (about 370Km/h), you will run the risk of pulling down the catenary.

The fact that I am writing in English, it does not mean I am English. In fact I am of Italian orgin, living in th UK.

Before becoming seriously ill with ME I was a fairly successful translator: among other translations, I translated the Italferr technical specifications into English for the new High Speed line from Bologna to Florence, as well as some chapters of the New Florence Hight Speed Station, designed by Sir Norman Foster.

The technical department of engineering of the defunct Ferrovie dello Stato (FS) did not want the ETR500.

The ETR500 was rejected by senior FS technicians since the very beginning, when it was still on the drawing board.

The ETR500 was built for political reason. The seating is also anti-ergonomic.

It is the worst High speed train (sic!!!) in Europe.

It is quite significant that NTV, the new High speed Italian private operator ,
has chosen the AGV.

Only three ETR500 train sets have been sold abroad to Turkey, probably at a great discount, or given for free to Turkey.

Turkey has also bought a large number of ICE3 and CAF trainsets.


I was in Italy a few months ago. Much to my regret, I have to say that, the Italian railway system has progressively deteriorated since 1990, on all major lines.

About 2/3 of the Milan-Turin are completed (85km) on al total lenght of 153km. When fully completed the Turin-Milan HSL will be 125km long with end sections on the historical line. Yet , in 1990 the Pendolino tilting train was doing Milan Turin (153 Km) in 1h 18 minutes, on the old slow line.

Now The ETR500 cover the same distance, but travellng for 85 km on th new High speed line in 1h and 22 minutes!

Furthermore, the italian cross-overs from the historical (slow speed ) lines to the HSL lines, and viceversa, are taken at speed of 20-40 miles. The French crossovers (flyovers) can be negotiated between 220km/h and 260km/h.

In the future, trains non stopping at Bologna and at Florence, will transit through Bologna at 60-100km/h (underground High speed station), and through Firenze High Speed station at 60 (YES, SIXTY) Km/h.

When the Milan-Rome HSL will be completed (but whe year 3010?) and fully operational, a non-stop Milan-Rome will cover the 567 between the two cities in 3 hours, at best, at an average speed of 189 km/h.

Now, the French best timing, on the new section of East HSL is about 278. km/h, between Gare de l'Est and the Gare TGV Champagne (if I remember correctly), covering from stat to stop 168km in about 36 minutes.