daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 27th, 2010, 06:20 PM   #781
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,147
Likes (Received): 3831

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Guys, please translate this theoretical discuss to clear facts (no offense to any side, I'm simply interested). How many people use Frecciarossa between Milano and Roma (I mean from M to R, so excluding e.g. Bologna - Firenze passangers)?
How many people use the car for such a trip? And how many take a flight?
Do you have any data?
the discussion had nothing to do with Roma-Milano but with international connection between north europe and north Italy

Regarding Roma-Milano the data are like this:

Before HSR:

Airplane: 52%
Train: 32%
Car: 16%

Now

Airplane: 38%
Train: 50%
Car: 12%

In 2008 air traffic between Milan and Rome was 2.4 million passengers, making it the second most used internal line of Europe

Consider however that the Rome-Milan line is in reality used for many other connections, the main line involving also links among Turin, Florence, Bologna, Naples, Salerno with Rome and Milan and among themselves (unlike other HSR of the continent which mainly involve connecting the provincial towns to the capital).

The process of "switch" between car/air and train is still ongoing as the final stretch of HSR has only been opened this year and construction is still ongoing on the hurban stretches of Florence and Bologna
Eddard Stark no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 27th, 2010, 07:21 PM   #782
Railfan
steamer
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Guayaquil
Posts: 14,808
Likes (Received): 93

Railfan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2010, 07:39 PM   #783
Railfan
steamer
 
Railfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Guayaquil
Posts: 14,808
Likes (Received): 93

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
Railfan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2010, 10:50 PM   #784
Axelferis
Registered User
 
Axelferis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: A space between two worlds
Posts: 11,273
Likes (Received): 2246

i'm surprised that italy makes its" railways revolution"!
Similar to the french one in early 90's!

The AGV is french technical inspired, the stations are french inspired (Duthileul french Sncf architect) with 3 or 2 levels: mezzanine-space circulation and point of view+ quais embarcation and all of this with a longitudinal way of walking circulating!

France inspires Railways Europe!
__________________
W.A.O blog
Axelferis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2010, 11:06 PM   #785
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,147
Likes (Received): 3831

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
i'm surprised that italy makes its" railways revolution"!
Similar to the french one in early 90's!

The AGV is french technical inspired, the stations are french inspired (Duthileul french Sncf architect) with 3 or 2 levels: mezzanine-space circulation and point of view+ quais embarcation and all of this with a longitudinal way of walking circulating!

France inspires Railways Europe!
our HSR is more a mix of French and German concepts. Fast lines but passing through cities rather than skipping them and connecting cities among themselves rather than just ASAP to the Capital. This is because we do not have a real capital dominating all other cities, much like Germany rather than France

The current rolling stock (ETR500) is a very italian affair. New trains will be made by Bombardier (Trenitalia) and Alstom (NTV) not only Alstom.

We have had a HSL between Florence and Rome since the 70' by the way

Ah, we will be the only contry with real HS competition among two competitors (NTV and Trenitalia) while France keeps its monopoly. Something where we are in my opinion innovating
Eddard Stark no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2010, 11:14 PM   #786
dumbfword
Habitual Line Stepper
 
dumbfword's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 293
Likes (Received): 563

wow. NTV AGV looks great!
__________________
"I am the color red in a world full of black and white"
dumbfword no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2010, 11:18 PM   #787
Axelferis
Registered User
 
Axelferis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: A space between two worlds
Posts: 11,273
Likes (Received): 2246

AGV uses Boggies French TGV technology. The best when come to security criteria!
__________________
W.A.O blog
Axelferis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 27th, 2010, 11:33 PM   #788
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,147
Likes (Received): 3831

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbfword View Post
wow. NTV AGV looks great!
actually it does
Eddard Stark no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 28th, 2010, 09:36 AM   #789
Attus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rheinbach
Posts: 2,766
Likes (Received): 1039

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
Regarding Roma-Milano the data are like this:
Thank you!
Attus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 28th, 2010, 09:55 PM   #790
Eddard Stark
Keep your head
 
Eddard Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 13,147
Likes (Received): 3831

Construction of the Bologna hurban HSR stretch is still ongoing, the work is colossal: almost 12 km of underground tunnels under the city and the below humongous underground HSR station right side by side with the old (superficial) one

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricciecapricci View Post
Un paio di foto di quello che è visibile a tutti, per il camerone.
Sembra che con lo scavo siano arrivati al fondo, eccetto la parte centrale.







Sullo sfondo si vedono i silos in vicinanza del quale si era aperta la voragine nei giorni scaorsi
Eddard Stark no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2010, 09:43 PM   #791
endrity
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,494
Likes (Received): 720

Truly impressive!
endrity no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 12:38 AM   #792
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,531
Likes (Received): 21237

Indeed. Too bad they have no plans for such a thing in Milano, which will hamper travel times to/from Torino and Malpensa Airport to anywhere south or west of Milano for at least another 20 years. They should build an all-underground "T" connecting high speed lines from Torino, Venezia (u/c) and Bologna, coupled with a new underground stations for HS trains.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 08:55 AM   #793
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Indeed. Too bad they have no plans for such a thing in Milano, which will hamper travel times to/from Torino and Malpensa Airport to anywhere south or west of Milano for at least another 20 years. They should build an all-underground "T" connecting high speed lines from Torino, Venezia (u/c) and Bologna, coupled with a new underground stations for HS trains.
They could use the passante, and have trains call at Garibaldi.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 10:39 AM   #794
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 766

No because underground platforms in Garibaldi are too short and there is no connection between the HSL and the S-Bahn tunnel near Rogoredo. And its low capacity (16 tph) is still needed for suburban trains.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 03:48 PM   #795
Satrapo
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montella ....
Posts: 38
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
i'm surprised that italy makes its" railways revolution"!
Similar to the french one in early 90's!

The AGV is french technical inspired, the stations are french inspired (Duthileul french Sncf architect) with 3 or 2 levels: mezzanine-space circulation and point of view+ quais embarcation and all of this with a longitudinal way of walking circulating!

France inspires Railways Europe!
I don't want hurt your French pride but Italian railways were the first to introduce the concept of high-speed train in Europe.

Last edited by Satrapo; December 1st, 2010 at 12:40 AM.
Satrapo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 04:22 PM   #796
petrovic79
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mompracem in Brixia
Posts: 562
Likes (Received): 49

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
No because underground platforms in Garibaldi are too short and there is no connection between the HSL and the S-Bahn tunnel near Rogoredo. And its low capacity (16 tph) is still needed for suburban trains.
Yes, the only trains in the "Passante" are only the FrecciaRossa from Torino to Roma. These trains don't stop in Milano Centrale. The others trains from Milano Porta Garibaldi will use the external ring.
petrovic79 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 05:03 PM   #797
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 766

Torino-Roma trains use the so-called "Passantino" tunnel (around 1600 m) stopping in Porta Garibaldi (surface) then running on the "Cintura" (the railway around the city). No trains other than suburban use the "Passante" tunnel (around 7700 m).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 08:21 PM   #798
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,531
Likes (Received): 21237

Apparently, the new Rogoredo-Malpensa Airport high speed trains (Frecciarossa) use the Passante southern branch. There are regular Le Nord trains operating from Rogoredo to MAlpensa too.

__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 09:24 PM   #799
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 766

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Apparently, the new Rogoredo-Malpensa Airport high speed trains (Frecciarossa) use the Passante southern branch.
No they don't. In this case it was for a test (politic) run Rogoredo-Malpensa, in another known one was because the Cintura line was closed (with a Roma-Torino with passengers on board). No train other than suburban uses regularly the Passante.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 02:29 AM   #800
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddard Stark View Post
the discussion had nothing to do with Roma-Milano but with international connection between north europe and north Italy

Regarding Roma-Milano the data are like this:
1-
Before HSR:
Airplane: 52%Train: 32%
Car: 16%

Now
Airplane: 38%Train: 50%
Car: 12%

In 2008 air traffic between Milan and Rome was 2.4 million passengers, making it the second most used internal line of Europe

Consider however that the Rome-Milan line is in reality used for many other connections, the main line involving also links among Turin, Florence, Bologna, Naples, Salerno with Rome and Milan and among themselves (unlike other HSR of the continent which mainly involve connecting the provincial towns to the capital).

2-
The process of "switch" between car/air and train is still ongoing as the final stretch of HSR has only been opened this year and construction is still ongoing on the hurban stretches of Florence and Bologna
1-
So, after the completion of the HSL MIlan-Rome the HST has taken only about 800.00 passenger/year from the aeroplane. That is to say less than 3,000 passenger a day with 72 daily runs and considerable discounted fares.

Also the present offer of 36 non-stop HSTs trains, and of 36 HSTs calling at Bologna and Florence seems to be excessive, since each ETR500 carry about 600 passengers.

The Milan-Roma line is long only 560 kms. One does not build such an expensive and slow HSL to subtract from the aeroplane less than 3,000 pax/day.

The opening of the Bologna underpass will shave a few minutes off the present 3hrs journey times, for non stop HSTs.

In order to capture from the aeroplane 95% of the passengers the journey time between Milan and Rome should be around 2h and 15'. The Milan -Naples shloud be around 3hrs ~ 3hrs 15'.
At present, from Milan to Bologna, Florence, Rome and Naples there are only a handful of IC trains, which have been turned into long-distance snail-slow stopping trains, and for this reason the HSTs have an average seat occupancy of about 50% .

Any traditional IC, capable of 200~220 km/h can do a non-stop Milan-Rome in about 3h , 3h and 15, and a Milan Naples non-stop in 4h 20'.

It takes a a great genius to build an over-specified and astronomically expensive ( and allegedly 300+ km/h HSL main corridor), to obtain average speeds, which in some cases are lower than those achieved on the British ECML and WCML.

For instance: the Rome-Florence is 252 km long (of which 232 kms allow 250km/h running) and yet it has journey times of 1h and 30', 1h 35 minutes.


This does non compare favourably with the London- York journey times.

2-
On completion of the ongoing works in Bologna and Florence the HS trains will be speeded up by some 10-15 minutes.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alta velocità

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium