daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 1st, 2010, 10:58 AM   #801
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
1-
So, after the completion of the HSL MIlan-Rome the HST has taken only about 800.00 passenger/year from the aeroplane. That is to say less than 3,000 passenger a day with 72 daily runs and considerable discounted fares.
You can't deduce that mathematically. Only if the total number of journeys remains static would your figures be correct. Unless we know that we can't work anything out.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 1st, 2010, 02:01 PM   #802
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
1-
So, after the completion of the HSL MIlan-Rome the HST has taken only about 800.00 passenger/year from the aeroplane. That is to say less than 3,000 passenger a day with 72 daily runs and considerable discounted fares.
The line hasn't been open long yet. Just give it a bit of time. And it will be interesting what will happen once Italo starts running on this route.

Quote:
Also the present offer of 36 non-stop HSTs trains, and of 36 HSTs calling at Bologna and Florence seems to be excessive, since each ETR500 carry about 600 passengers.
If this is excessive the line should never have been build. If you really want to make an expensive piece of infrastructure make sense you should run a lot more trains. SNCF runs trains every 3 minutes on some of its lines.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 02:31 PM   #803
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
If you really want to make an expensive piece of infrastructure make sense you should run a lot more trains.
The Milano-Torino HSL costed 7.8 billions euro and has 8 train pairs daily...
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 03:07 PM   #804
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The Milano-Torino HSL costed 7.8 billions euro and has 8 train pairs daily...
Give it some time! To-Mi LAV saved 28 min in travel time! And was built, already, with the hi-speed line Torino-Lyon (France) in mind! Now they need to complete the "T" and finish the Milano-Venezia line, and maybe consider upgrading the modernization project of Napoli-Reggio Calabria line (just improved tracks with some new alignments up to 240km/h to full new high-speed standards and right-of-way, in anticipation of Messina STraight Bridge.

Both would likely cost € 15-22 billion.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 03:16 PM   #805
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Milan-Turin HSL should have been build with more intelligence. There are now two interdemiate interconnections between the new and the old line, but the one near Novara is useless because it doesn't lead to Novara station. If it was built correctly (and maybe with the lien energised at 3 kV DC) the new line could have been used also by intercity trains freeing slots for suburbans. Because of the usefullness of the Novara interconnection also the one near Vercelli is unused.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 05:33 PM   #806
Satrapo
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montella ....
Posts: 38
Likes (Received): 0

****** attention *****

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Milan-Turin HSL should have been build with more intelligence.
Are you an engineer?

Last edited by Satrapo; December 1st, 2010 at 05:41 PM.
Satrapo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 05:55 PM   #807
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Milan-Turin HSL should have been build with more intelligence. There are now two interdemiate interconnections between the new and the old line, but the one near Novara is useless because it doesn't lead to Novara station. If it was built correctly (and maybe with the lien energised at 3 kV DC) the new line could have been used also by intercity trains freeing slots for suburbans. Because of the usefullness of the Novara interconnection also the one near Vercelli is unused.
But then you might get a situation that Trenitalia tries to avoid at all cost: "less than maximum speed" trains clogging HSL. It's a strategic decision from Trenitalia not to let its high-speed network to be "contaminated" by lower speed trains. In case of Diretissima, constructed 20-30 years ago, when the new track of HSL became operational they had to take out of it a lot of trains so HST (Freacciarossa) would not be slowed down by the presence of inferior rolling stock using the line. This resulted on significant degradation of service of non-HS services in the route, but pushed passengers into more expensive and lucrative HS services.

If Intercity trains are cut, people will not shift to suburban services, but to high-speed ones, that costs 60% more. Then, Trenitalia can build a new Novara AV station... like Valence TGV in France, for instance.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 06:43 PM   #808
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrapo View Post
Are you an engineer?
Actually not but I studied transport engineering a few years before changing ideas, so I know what I'm speaking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
..."less than maximum speed" trains clogging HSL.
It has to be seen. If there aren't a lot of high speed trains then a slower (but still 200 km/h) train could be have its place. But certainly an IC train leaving Milano just after an HST would arrive in Novara before the next HST (hardly less than 15 minutes before the first one, consider that today the smallest difference between two HST is around 40 minutes, the biggest around 5 hours).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In case of Diretissima, constructed 20-30 years ago, when the new track of HSL became operational they had to take out of it a lot of trains so HST (Freacciarossa) would not be slowed down by the presence of inferior rolling stock using the line.
This happened also because RFI decided to remove some passing tracks on the Direttissima, so that faster trains can no more overtake slower ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
This resulted on significant degradation of service of non-HS services in the route...
Today Trenitalia seems to love only HSL trains, even if that cause indirectly losses to both HS and short distance trains (if there were direct trains Varese-Milano Centrale, these would feed the Milano-Bologna-Florence-Rome trains, for instance, now for Bologna a car is faster and for Rome the airplane).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
...but pushed passengers into more expensive and lucrative HS services.
Only part of them. Some switched to the car, as Trenitalia fail to understand that there is life outside Turin, Milan, Bologna, Florence and Rome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If Intercity trains are cut, people will not shift to suburban services, but to high-speed ones, that costs 60% more.
No this will not happen (on a big scale) because there are pople living between the two extremes and the average salary in Italy is not really high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Then, Trenitalia can build a new Novara AV station... like Valence TGV in France, for instance.
It will not be interesting for local traffic like Milan-Novara as a new Novara AV station would be relatively far from the city center and Trenitalia would certainly make short trips extremely expensive (has it does between Florence and Bologna for instance).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 12:22 AM   #809
Satrapo
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montella ....
Posts: 38
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Actually not but I studied transport engineering a few years before changing ideas, so I know what I'm speaking about.
you really believe that high-speed lines are useless?
You know that road transport will have to be replaced with sustainable transport systems?
you know something about the future of European transport?
Are you able to understand why other countries are spending billions to overcome many obstacles of all kinds just to build their future rail lines?

Last edited by Satrapo; December 2nd, 2010 at 12:45 AM.
Satrapo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 01:14 AM   #810
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
You really believe that high-speed lines are useless?
No I don't. I haven't said that. I have said that a particular line (Milano-Torino HSL) built in a particular way had untill now a disastrous value for money. Other built or planned lines were needed though, like the Milano-Bologna-Firenze or the Brenner Base Tunnel.

Quote:
You know that road transport will have to be replaced with sustainable transport systems?
I travel nearly always by train, bus or walking, using the car really few times. Also I don't usually use airplanes, going by train instead.

Quote:
You know something about the future of European transport?
No I don't. Nobody knows. But there are ways to make predictions, or to make cost-benefit analisys. Sometimes they may be wrong, and not count indirect effects, ok, but it's difficult to say that nearly 8 billions for 125 km of new line in flat terrain used by 16 trains per day are a good investment. Things will change in the future? I hope so. But who knows? But certainly, today, this hasn't been a good example.

Quote:
Are you able to understand why other countries are spending billions to overcome many obstacles of all kinds just to build their future rail lines?
France invested 4 billions for the 200 km long LGV Est, which has 120 trains a day.

Italy invested 8 billions for the 125 km long MI-TO, which has 16 trains a day.

There are some differences in that...

On the other hand the Milano-Bologna HSL freed space on the old line, and the new Bologna-Firenze HSL doubled what was the only high capacity link between northern and southern Italy, so they are ok (even if with the latter there were some sensible ambiental problems, but that's another matter) (for instance, all but two railways (plus the HSL) between the Northern-Adriatic and the Southern-Tyrrenian side of Italy are single track).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia

Last edited by Coccodrillo; December 2nd, 2010 at 01:21 AM.
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 02:30 AM   #811
Satrapo
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montella ....
Posts: 38
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
No I don't. I haven't said that. I have said that a particular line (Milano-Torino HSL) built in a particular way had untill now a disastrous value for money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post

France invested 4 billions for the 200 km long LGV Est, which has 120 trains a day.

Italy invested 8 billions for the 125 km long MI-TO, which has 16 trains a day.

There are some differences in that...
I think you have to wait another few years before giving such harsh judgments on the TAV Milano-Torino, i think that it is unfair to judge project built a few years ago, it's wrong to make a comparison with lines of other countries that have a network built 25-30 years before most of the Italian HST lines
I'm sure that the experiences accumulated over the years by other countries makes it impossible for a fair comparison, I also think that it is wrong to equate a rail service (eg. trenitalia S.P.A) that is facing tough competition without any help of the state against a railroad company (NTV)whose largest shareholder is a French state railways company (SNCF a completly state owned company that has not European budget constraints)with other Service...

Last edited by Satrapo; December 2nd, 2010 at 02:50 AM.
Satrapo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 08:53 AM   #812
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post


1
Milan-Turin HSL should have been build with more intelligence.
2-
There are now two interdemiate interconnections between the new and the old line, but the one near Novara is useless because it doesn't lead to Novara station.
3-
If it was built correctly (and maybe with the lien energised at 3 kV DC) the new line could have been used also by intercity trains freeing slots for suburbans.
4-
Because of the usefullness of the Novara interconnection also the one near Vercelli is unused.
1-2-3-4
Yes! Even Mr. Moretti said on TV that he would have built it differently.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 09:04 AM   #813
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
No I don't. I haven't said that. I have said that a particular line (Milano-Torino HSL) built in a particular way had untill now a disastrous value for money. Other built or planned lines were needed though, like the Milano-Bologna-Firenze or the Brenner Base Tunnel.
I travel nearly always by train, bus or walking, using the car really few times. Also I don't usually use airplanes, going by train instead.



No I don't. Nobody knows. But there are ways to make predictions, or to make cost-benefit analisys. Sometimes they may be wrong, and not count indirect effects, ok, but it's difficult to say that nearly 8 billions for 125 km of new line in flat terrain used by 16 trains per day are a good investment. Things will change in the future? I hope so. But who knows? But certainly, today, this hasn't been a good example.


1 -
France invested 4 billions for the 200 km long LGV Est, which has 120 trains a day.Italy invested 8 billions for the 125 km long MI-TO, which has 16 trains a day.

There are some differences in that...

On the other hand the Milano-Bologna HSL freed space on the old line, and the new Bologna-Firenze HSL doubled what was the only high capacity link between northern and southern Italy, so they are ok (even if with the latter there were some sensible ambiental problems, but that's another matter) (for instance, all but two railways (plus the HSL) between the Northern-Adriatic and the Southern-Tyrrenian side of Italy are single track).
1-
Perhaps you were in a rush because you made a little error , probably a typo. ..

The first section of the LGV Est cost 4 billion euro but it is 300 km long. (and from Gare de, l'Est to Ardenne-Champagne the TGV runs at an average speed of about 279 km/h, while the fastest HST running on the Milan -Turin HSL average 150 km/h)...
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 09:41 AM   #814
joseph1951
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,435
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The line hasn't been open long yet. Just give it a bit of time. And it will be interesting what will happen once Italo starts running on this route.



If this is excessive the line should never have been build. If you really want to make an expensive piece of infrastructure make sense you should run a lot more trains. SNCF runs trains every 3 minutes on some of its lines.
The 250km/h DD Rome Florence was completed in the early 90s. The Milan- Bologna 2 years ago and the Bologna-Florence has been in revenue for a year , and the HSL Rome Naples has been in service for several years now. So one can say that the HST Milan-Rome ( and Naples) has has been in service for sometime.

The other fairly useless and astronomically expensive HST line is the Rome-Naples.
On the new HSL Rome-Naples the fastest journey time is 70 minutes (for 204 km ) using 300km/h HSTs while in the 70- -80' on the old fast line Rome -Naples via Formia the journey time used to be about 90 minutes, with conventional train running at top speed of 160-180 km/h. The Old fast line Rome-Naples via Formia could have been easily and cheaply upgraded to 220 km/h, with doubling some section allowing 250 km/h.

The fastest jouney time on the new 250 km/h Naples -Salerno will be 29 minutes . The line is 50 km long.

On the soon to be built new High Speed Station of Napoli-Afragola, there will be a speed restriction of 70 km/h, for non stopping high speed trains.
joseph1951 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 10:49 AM   #815
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrapo View Post
I think you have to wait another few years before giving such harsh judgments on the TAV Milano-Torino, i think that it is unfair to judge project built a few years ago...
Things may change in the future, I hope so, but I don't see this happening early because as I said the new HSL cannot be used by trains other than no-stop HS. Beside that an interconnection that does not allow to enter Novara FS station is still a waste of money. All other lines have quite useless interconnection. Ok, they may be used in the future, but until now and for the foreseable future they are just useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrapo View Post
...it's wrong to make a comparison with lines of other countries that have a network built 25-30 years before most of the Italian HST lines
The LGV Est had 120 trains per day from the beginning, not 30 years after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrapo View Post
...against a railroad company (NTV)whose largest shareholder is a French state railways company (SNCF a completly state owned company that has not European budget constraints)with other Service...
SNCF only owns 20% of NTV.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:13 AM   #816
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Give it some time! To-Mi LAV saved 28 min in travel time! And was built, already, with the hi-speed line Torino-Lyon (France) in mind!
The current high speed trains Lyon - Milano don't even use the LAV...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:36 AM   #817
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Because SNCF and Trenitalia decided that it is too expensive to equip the TGV with the ETCS...

(by the way the line is Paris-Milano: there haven't been Lyon-Turin-Milan trains for years)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 02:57 PM   #818
Satrapo
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montella ....
Posts: 38
Likes (Received): 0


http://tentea.ec.europa.eu/en/ten-t_...rity_projects/
The Priority Projects were chosen both according to their European added-value and their contribution to the sustainable development of transport. Their completion - planned for 2020 - will improve the economic efficiency of the European transport system and provide direct benefits for European citizens.



Of these 30 key projects, 18 are railway projects, 3 are mixed rail-road projects, 2 are inland waterway transport projects and one refers to Motorways of the Sea. This choice reflects a high priority to more environmentally friendly transport modes, contributing to the fight against climate change.



Some of the Priority Projects are very large-scale and have already been completed.


Important sections of the remaining 27 Projects have also been completed in the past years, with many more to follow (nearly one third of all the necessary investments have already been made). The completion of these projects provides a concrete illustration of the potential benefits of the TEN-T.



There has been a firm commitment on behalf of the Member States and European Community Institutions to deliver these key Priority Projects and they have been at the centre of Community efforts - both financially and in terms of coordination. The European Commission has in particular designated a group of ten eminent European Coordinators to evaluate the progress of certain TEN-T Priority Projects, to make recommendations for the effective implementation of these projects and to play a major role in advancing the works.

Railway axis Berlin-Verona/Milano-Bologna-Napoli-Messina-Palermo

The railway axis Berlin-Verona/Milan-Bologna-Naples-Messina-Palermo is an important high capacity northsouthrail axis crossing the Alps along the BrennerCorridor. Traversing Germany, Austria and Italy, theaxis will link up their important urban areas and deliver an important increase intransport capacity. This will allow a modal shift from road to rail in the sensitive mountainous regions it crosses.



The core of the Berlin-Palermo rail axis is constituted by the Brenner Corridor section. Located between Munich-Innsbruck-Bolzano-Trento-Verona, this section comprises the 55 km long cross-border Brenner Base Tunnel (BBT), which starts at Fortezza and joins up with the existing Innsbruck bypass - thus creating a 62.5 km long underground tunnel link, and the northern and southern access routes. Studies have been undertaken to prepare the construction of this central section. The 41 km Lower Inn Valley route between Kundl and Baumkirchen, which is part of the northern access to the Brenner Base Tunnel, is expected to become operational by 2012. Currently, 95% of the civil engineering works have been completed.



Mr Pat Cox, nominated in June 2010, carries on the progress made by his predecessor, the late Mr Karek van Miert.
http://tentea.ec.europa.eu/en/ten-t_..._project_1.htm
Satrapo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 03:10 PM   #819
Satrapo
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montella ....
Posts: 38
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Things may change in the future, I hope so, but I don't see this happening early because as I said the new HSL cannot be used by trains other than no-stop HS. Beside that an interconnection that does not allow to enter Novara FS station is still a waste of money. All other lines have quite useless interconnection. Ok, they may be used in the future, but until now and for the foreseable future they are just useless.








Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
SNCF only owns 20% of NTV.
20% o 100% non cambia niente...

Last edited by Satrapo; December 2nd, 2010 at 04:22 PM.
Satrapo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 04:35 PM   #820
Satrapo
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montella ....
Posts: 38
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
The 250km/h DD Rome Florence was completed in the early 90s. The Milan- Bologna 2 years ago and the Bologna-Florence has been in revenue for a year , and the HSL Rome Naples has been in service for several years now. So one can say that the HST Milan-Rome ( and Naples) has has been in service for sometime.

The other fairly useless and astronomically expensive HST line is the Rome-Naples.
On the new HSL Rome-Naples the fastest journey time is 70 minutes (for 204 km ) using 300km/h HSTs while in the 70- -80' on the old fast line Rome -Naples via Formia the journey time used to be about 90 minutes, with conventional train running at top speed of 160-180 km/h. The Old fast line Rome-Naples via Formia could have been easily and cheaply upgraded to 220 km/h, with doubling some section allowing 250 km/h.

The fastest jouney time on the new 250 km/h Naples -Salerno will be 29 minutes . The line is 50 km long.

On the soon to be built new High Speed Station of Napoli-Afragola, there will be a speed restriction of 70 km/h, for non stopping high speed trains.
Why don't you stop trolling and do something useful with your time?
Satrapo no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alta velocità

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium